TiVo Community Forums Archives - DVD-R/-RW or DVD+r/+RW

TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.

Pages:1

DVD-R/-RW or DVD+r/+RW - which is best for me??
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: TivoUK

I am trying to find a way through the recordable DVD formats.

The short story is that I want to be able to record UK TV shows in PAL and send them to a friend in the States (well Cananda actually) with whom I swap TV shows with. Thought with DVD "write once" disc prices at less than Ł1 it would save me a fortune in postage, and give me a new toy to play with. :)

He has a standards converting Samsung VCR, so would feed the signal from his home DVD player (it can play PAL recordings via a menu hack) into the VCR.

A friend of mine near to me has bought the new Panasonic DVD-R / -RW recorder (around Ł500 - I forget the model but E30 rings a bell, or is that the hard disc based one..........?) and did me a test recording of 7 mins of TV.

It does not play on my region 1 Sony player, or my cheapo Wharfdale, the PC likes it though! Am going to do some test recordings onto a disc and send to my mate in Cananda and see if he can play them, but tonight I got an email from my Panny owning mate saying things like recordings he thought had worked OK do not. They "hang" at about 60 - 90 mins through on various DVD players he has - of course some play fine on some players but not on others - typical.

Which format would be best for me, the - or the + versions?
Could the problems onp layback be down to the discs used, what makes a "good" disc to record on - is it just down to price?

Any advice would be great.

Posted by: Nishikigoi

I've got a Pioneer DVDR880 +RW, the benifits of these are (as per philips' advertising) that they will play in all DVD players, since they have taken the DVD standard & made it recorable; rather than writen new standards for DVDR's.

However my disks won't play in my Wharfdale 750 either! Do you want me to try my PS2?

Posted by: Richardr

quote:
Originally posted by Nishikigoi
I've got a Pioneer DVDR880

as opposed to the Philips of that model number?

Back to the original question - what model of DVD player does your friend have? There are several web sites showing which type of disc works in which player.

Here is one.

Posted by: Nishikigoi

OOPS!

The Pioneer is my FTA OnDigital STB!

Posted by: TivoUK

It is an Apex one, not sure of the exact model number, will check.

Posted by: murrayp

There's not really that much to choose between the formats when it comes to R discs. With at leat one supplier offering +R discs at Ł1.50 now the price difference isn't that great with -R discs and there's not much you can do to any R disc in the way of editing. Certainly with +R any edits you make after recording only work on the recorder, other players just see the unedited version.

With a +RW you can edit your discs after recording: changing menus, adding and removing chapter marks, hiding chapters, splitting titles, etc. The "make edits compatibile" function will then make the edited disc playable on most players. Of course with the cheapest of these being around Ł3.60 at them moment, which is less than half what they were only a couple of months ago, they're still a bit expensive to give away or use for permanent storage, so you'd want to recycle them after your friend had finished with them.

My understanding is that with -R/RW you have two modes in which a disc can be recorded - one that offers little or no editing capabilities but will be compatible with most players, and one with similar editing capabilities to the +RW but not compatible with standard DVD players. To overcome these limitations you can buy one of the models with a hard drive built in, then perform your assembly and editing on the hard drive and burn the results to disc.

As you'll have gathered I have a + machine, the Philips 880 to be specific, but I hope the above gives a reasonably neutral comparison. If you scroll down the front page of the DVDplusRW site you'll find among other things a comparison of the DVD+RW recorder models and a comparison with DVD-RW recorders but obviously this is not exactly a neutral site.

Posted by: Nishikigoi

Where do you get the +R disks for Ł1.50?

Posted by: murrayp

CD Evolutions have the Intenso DVD+R in a single DVD case at Ł1.50 inc VAT.

Of course there's postage to add to that, but at this price you can probably afford to buy a decent quantity and spread the cost.

Posted by: Automan

You may wish to check out the following article if you are trying new high speed write media.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi...ews.php?id=2289

Automan.

Posted by: blokedownthepub

quote:
Originally posted by TivoUK

He has a standards converting Samsung VCR, so would feed the signal from his home DVD player (it can play PAL recordings via a menu hack) into the VCR.

I doubt the VCR will actually convert a PAL video signal into an NTSC signal. I have a Sony VCR which will play NTSC tapes, outputting a PAL signal, it will not however convert a baseband NTSC signal into a PAL format.

It may be worth checking this out with your Canadian mate before you spend your money.

Posted by: Sneals2000

quote:
Originally posted by blokedownthepub

I doubt the VCR will actually convert a PAL video signal into an NTSC signal. I have a Sony VCR which will play NTSC tapes, outputting a PAL signal, it will not however convert a baseband NTSC signal into a PAL format.

It may be worth checking this out with your Canadian mate before you spend your money.

Yep - this could be the case. However Samsung DO manufacture a VHS machine with integrated digital field standards conversion - to actually convert between 50 and 60Hz formats, rather than just the subcarier conversion done by cheap NTSC replay VCRs as sold in the UK (which just generate a 525/60 PAL or sometimes additionally a slightly better 525/60 NTSC 4.43 rather than a 525/60 NTSC 3.58 signal)

AIUI the digital conversion done by domestic VCRs is pretty basic - with little in the way of motion adaption, let alone compensation, so the conversion is pretty poor and flickery. OK for viewing casually - but not for something you want to watch in quality.

Posted by: TivoUK

I had an email reply, the model number is Apex AD-1500.
Any better or worse at playing these -R discs???

BTW, it is the real standards converting Samsung he has, cost a bit but the group of people that watch the shows I record for him, chipped in towards the cost.

Posted by: TivoUK

OK, I went to visit my friend with the DVD-R / -RW recorder today for some testing.

I took with me my cheapo Wharfdale DVD player, to see if we could get different makes of disc (with different dyes) to play.

Earlier this week he sent me a test recording on some cheapo make (cost 40 pence!) that my Wharfdale refused to play, it would just spin and spin.

He bought various makes of blanks, from more cheapo ones (Princo, Datasafe) to more expensive ones by Traxdata, Pioneer.

None would play in my Wharfdale player :(

He has done me a full disc of TV recordings I will be sending to Canada to see if it will play in his Apex, but thought I would share the results of disc playback on various machines, and a interesting “bug” (I use quotes advisedly!) I would like opinions one.

The test recordings we of the following:

1) The TV shows recorded in SP and LP on a DATASAFE disc
2) Copy of Panic Room DVD – done through composite video in SP mode – DATASAFE media.
3) Copy from PAL LD of Kate Bush “Cloudbursting” music video in XP mode on a brand of disc I cannot identify. Just has the letters “FWS” and a circuit logo on the cover.
4) Copy of PAL Star Wars – Special Edition LD – SP mode on PRINCO media.
5) Copy of a PAL music video laser disc – XP mode – E-PROFORMANCE media.

My friend has 3 DVD players in the house, a cheapo Dansai from Tesco, a more expensive, but by their standards, cheaper Pioneer player and a Panasonic A100.

All players played all the discs fine and dandy (just my pigging Wharfdale!!) but both the Panny and the Dansai showed the same problem on the film recordings.

After about 85 mins, the picture would freeze up and the player would lock on the Star Wars and Panic Room recordings. It appears that single recordings of about that length cause a problem on some players, anyone know why???

On the way home I called at at friends house, he has the ultra cheap Naiko player and that played them all without a problem, his PS2 would play them all but at the same place on the 2 films, would say it could not read the disc.

Your thoughts people?

Posted by: blokedownthepub

If you fast forward the disc and start playing just before the 85 minute point, does the problem still occur. Are there any things happening like the colour disappearing and black and white appearing? (Would indicate a timing issue on the disc). Or does the disc just become unplayable from that point. The Pioneer played the disc with no problems ?

Posted by: TivoUK

If you watch the disc upto that point the picture freezes.

The Pioneer and the Naiko had no problems.

Posted by: dsloper

I'm looking at getting the philips DVDR880, but need a little help on the media front. The DVDR880 is +RW drive from what I can make out. Can I only record on +RW and +R disks, or can I also record on -RW and -R disks on this model. My confusion partly stems from the page at CD Evolutions where they ony seem to do -R disks at 1.35 whereas murrayp seems to use this in his +writer. Or am i losing it?

Any help on this issue would be great
Thx Darren

Posted by: Richardr

With the Philips, you can only use +RW and +R

Pioneer are only -RW and -R

Panasonic are DVD-RAM and -R

Posted by: murrayp

Although the page on CD Evolutions is called DVD-R if you scroll about a third of the way down the page you will see a giant Intenso graphic, below which several DVD+R/RW products are listed.

Posted by: dsloper

OK, I feel stupid. For some reason i thought the page only has one item, it never occured to me to scroll down - duh

Thanks murrayp

Posted by: Automan

I just got an email that this product will now not be availble till October :(

However, it is now featured at their UK website http://www.panasonic.co.uk/product/...r/DMRHS2EBS.HTM

Automan.

Posted by: Nishikigoi

Some of the 'What HI-FI' mags are doing a free competion for one & a couple of articles about DVDR vs PVR that still say Tivo & Sky+ rule!

Posted by: sanderton

If you're trying to work out what DVD disks will play on what players, try here:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php

Posted by: TivoUK

The disc brands and what machines will play them has really been sorted out through some test discs my friend has done.

The only question I have now is what some palyers lock up on single recordings around 84 minutes.

Anyone got ideas?

Posted by: mrtickle

quote:
Originally posted by Nishikigoi
Some of the 'What HI-FI' mags are doing a free competion for one & a couple of articles about DVDR vs PVR that still say Tivo & Sky+ rule!

Do they run Chalk vs. Cheese articles as well, I wonder?! Timeshifting and Archiving are two very different functions.

I'm tired of these audio magazines pretending that they know about video matters. They should stick to Hi-Fi :(

Posted by: sanderton

quote:
Originally posted by TivoUK

The only question I have now is what some palyers lock up on single recordings around 84 minutes.

Anyone got ideas?

Sorry to ask potentially daft quation, but 84 mins isn't the capacity of the disk at that bitrate is it?

Posted by: Nishikigoi

quote:
Originally posted by mrtickle

Do they run Chalk vs. Cheese articles as well, I wonder?! Timeshifting and Archiving are two very different functions.

I'm tired of these audio magazines pretending that they know about video matters. They should stick to Hi-Fi :(

Aparently chalk had less sibilence or colouration, but was out of phase, however cheese sufered from a lack of presence & needed to to be driven harder with only 83db @ 1m sensitivity. Also Brie was found to suffer with heat distortion when driven hard, chedar was a firm choice, edam was good for asthetic values & swiss was the worst for holes in the cross over.:p

Posted by: blokedownthepub

Nishikigoi
You are just being silly.

Please bear in mind you are talking completely different cheese preferences. The NTSC version being completely wrong, It just doesn't fit in with the connesiuer european mainly PAL prefered version. Even the better PAL version has preferences across Europe, the PAL I version (Incredibilbly better than any other PAL version and only usually available in the UK) being far superior than any other. I refer to, of course Cheddar, (there being no Yorkshire Cheese to cheer on!).

Of course I am very drunk at the time of writing.

;)

Posted by: mrtickle

Tsk. I don't give Edam :)

Posted by: TivoUK

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton

Sorry to ask potentially daft quation, but 84 mins isn't the capacity of the disk at that bitrate is it?

No it is not :)

Some players (the cheapo ones are best) sail past the 84 minute mark and play the disc fine. Some players, the named brands especially, have problems going past the 84 minute mark and freeze up.

Posted by: Nishikigoi

quote:
Originally posted by blokedownthepub
Nishikigoi

Of course I am very drunk at the time of writing.

;)

You too!!!:eek:

Posted by: cyril

quote:
Originally posted by mrtickle
Tsk. I don't give Edam :)

Very Gouda

Posted by: TivoUK

OK, I took the plunge and bought an E30. Apart from having to swap it out after a few days (disc tray would not work properly) I am very pleased with the results.

My mates can play the discs in SP mode fine, but some have problems around the 84 min mark (they lock up) if a single recording, say a film, is longer than that. Multiple recordings on the disc that are greater in total to 84 mins play fine.

Now, if I could only find someone in the States with one to record my fav. TV shows. The VCD's of Enterprise I get off the net are fine, but I want DVD quality now :)

Posted by: hamradio

quote:
Originally posted by Nishikigoi
Where do you get the +R disks for Ł1.50?

from ken lee

Try www.bigpockets.co.uk for disks, labels,etc

hamradio@terra.es

Posted by: johala_reewi

If you want a DVDR just to record stuff from the Tivo (like you would a VCR) then go for a + format machine (that'll be a philips). The problem with - format machines is that you need to do your edits on a hard disk before burning the DVD. With the + format you can do the edits on the DVD.

If you want to go for PC based editing and publishing, then get a combo drive. These will record both the - and + formats (but not DVD-RAM) leaving you to choose which medium to use (usually the cheapest :) ).

Posted by: childe

When I edit DV on my PC it takes 5mins to transfer 5mins of video (via cheap firewire card) and then more than 5 minutes to process (render) that video and then at least 5 minutes to burn to a CD. ie at least 5-20 minutes without any fancy editing for just 5 minutes of finished product on a VCD.

My PC is not high spec (800Mhz) but is not exactly slow, so how come it takes this long to do video editing on a PC when it would appear these DVD recorders can do the whole job in real time? Do they have super fast processors or DVD burners? Do they have Gigabytes of RAM? Or is the quality in some way impaired?

What am I missing?

Posted by: murrayp

Any computer or electronic device built to do a single task will almost always perform better than a similar process running on a general purpose machine. A DVD recorder doesn't have to run a massive Windows operating system or any of the other programmes you've always got running in the background. All of its efforts and resources are going into the task at hand.

Also, it's doing the input-encode-burn as one process while you're doing input-diskwrite-diskread-encode-diskwrite-diskread-burn and all hard disk activity takes its toll.

Posted by: childe

Thanks Murrayp - what you say makes sense

So here is my dilemma. I want to copy my DV home video to DVD to gain the benefits of durability, random access and quality. I could do it via PC, but I would have to buy a DVD burner, probably some better software and a DVD player for my TV. The creation of the DVD's would be a time consuming task, especially with my 800Mhz PC, and even then I would run the risk of incompatibility. Also I would have little other use for the DVD burner as my PC is not heavily used.

Or, I could buy one of the Phillips or Panasonic "cheap" units, ie the Phillips 880 or 890 or the Panasonic DMR30. This appears by far the simplest option, and possibly the cheapest, but what kind of results does it produce compared to PC editing? I'm also then faced with having to choose a format, -RAM/-R or +RW/+R. It has the added bonus of providing a complete replacement for my VCR (thank God), but I have a Tivo and I only rent about 2 videos per year so I'm not sure how often it would get used in that way. However I am aware that DVD's have more content than VCR's so I may be tempted to rent more in future. The idea of creating permanent good quality copies of favourite films and programmes is also appealing.

A final element to this dilemma is, if I go the TV DVD recorder route, what is the essential difference between these "cheap" Ł400 units Phillips and Panasonic are offering and the Ł800+ units offered by them and other manufacturers? Looking at the specs the difference is not obvious to me (I'm not referring to the hard drive / DVD combo models, even I can see the benefits of that), so why the big price difference? Should I wait for more competition at the lower end to drive up quality?

Bearing in mind my primary reason for wanting a DVD recording facility is archiving of invaluable (to me) home video (approx 15 hours so far) can anyone suggest which route I should take? I've set myself a budget of Ł400-Ł500.

Posted by: hamradio

here are a few useful pages.
www.vcdhelp.com for ifo etc.

www.unbeatable.co.uk for Phillips 880/890 DVD recorders.

www.techtronics.com for Phillips 880/890 plus others.

they also do price match.

Ken Lee hamradio@terra.es

Posted by: murrayp

Childe, I started off with the Pioneer 104, a capture card and a VCR hooked up to my PC and all sorts of plans for transferring my huge VHS archive to DVD. That plan never lasted beyond the first disc. Even with an Athlon 1800 and 120Gb of fast hard disk space my PC was not doing a great job of capturing, but it was recognising how much time and effort this process would take that really put me off. It might be fine if I was doing some holiday video footage and the occaisional family event a few times each year, but anything more was out of the question. So then I decided I had to buy a recorder.

I can't claim to have done a lot of research before I bought my Philips 880, but at the time it was the only machine in my price range so I didn't have much choice. But since then I've become more familiar with some of the pros and cons of the formats, though I'm by no means an expert.

For me the main benefit of the + format is the ability edit the contents of a +RW disc after recording. That means I can leave hours of material to transfer overnight or while I'm out working, shopping, etc. Then later I can split the material into titles, add and remove chapter marks, hide unwanted footage, change the menu thumbnails and title names. The resulting disc, complete with all of my editing, will play on most of the players I've tried.

Now my understanding is that with the - format you have two choices: either create a disc that you can edit but that most players won't play, or produce a disc that most players will play but which will allow little or no editing. To get around that problem there are recorders with a hard disk so you can edit on the HD the burn your edited results onto an ordinary -R disc that most players will play. That sounds like an excellent solution to me, but it does add a huge chunk to the price tag.

As for quality, I suspect few people have had the opportunity to compare different recorders side by side using various recording qualities and various types of source material to reach what, even then, would still be a subjective conclusion. I certainly haven't, so I'm in no position to say anything other than that I'm very happy with my 880. The 880 and 890 are an improvement on last years Philips models and no doubt each year will bring continuing improvements in the hardware as with most other technology. However, improvements to performance and functionality can also be added with firmware updates which Philips do make freely available at intervals, the most recent being last week. For some models this just meant a few bug fixes, for others new menu options and recording qualities have been added. So while you'll never have the latest and geatest for more than a few months whatever you choose to buy, thanks to the magic of firmware some equipment can actually improve with age these days.

In your position I'd go for the Philips 890, but I'm an impulsive early adopter with more than a little bias toward technology I've already invested in, so I'm not the best person to make such recommendations.

Posted by: childe

murrayp

An excellent response, thank you very much.

Your experience of PC editing has virtually confirmed me on the TV recorder route, especially as my initial experiments have not been too impressive.

Do you have a view on how important the i.link port is as the Phillips 890 (which has it) is about Ł100 more expensive than the 880 which does not. Also the Panasonic DMR30 does not have it and I would have to pay several hundred pounds more to get one that does.

In other words how much quality is lost by using the analogue Red, White and Yellow inputs (sorry, don't know what they are called)? If I'm doing a one time data transfer at highest quality will there be a noticeable diminution in quality?

On the subject quoted below, can anyone else confirm murrayp's conclusions on -R editing? Does this limitation also apply to -RAM editing?

quote:
Originally posted by murrayp

For me the main benefit of the + format is the ability edit the contents of a +RW disc after recording. That means I can leave hours of material to transfer overnight or while I'm out working, shopping, etc. Then later I can split the material into titles, add and remove chapter marks, hide unwanted footage, change the menu thumbnails and title names. The resulting disc, complete with all of my editing, will play on most of the players I've tried.

Now my understanding is that with the - format you have two choices: either create a disc that you can edit but that most players won't play, or produce a disc that most players will play but which will allow little or no editing.

In the short term I am not too concerned about compatibility with other players, and in the long term (more than 5 years) I expect it to be relatively cheap and easy to convert formats if necessary via a PC.

I am inclined towards the Phillips 880 as it is the cheapest and I think i.link is probably not essential, but I would appreciate feedback on that. Can anyone give any good reasons to choose the Panasonic DMR30 -RAM/-R instead? I'm going to try very hard to wait until after Xmas and hopefully get a Sales bargain.

Finally, how do you receive firmware updates? Do they send self booting DVD's which upgrade the software?

Thanks again

Posted by: murrayp

quote:
Originally posted by childe
Do you have a view on how important the i.link port is as the Phillips 890 (which has it) is about Ł100 more expensive than the 880 which does not. Also the Panasonic DMR30 does not have it and I would have to pay several hundred pounds more to get one that does.

In other words how much quality is lost by using the analogue Red, White and Yellow inputs (sorry, don't know what they are called)? If I'm doing a one time data transfer at highest quality will there be a noticeable diminution in quality?

On the subject quoted below, can anyone else confirm murrayp's conclusions on -R editing? Does this limitation also apply to -RAM editing?

You'd need to ask someone with an 890 that has tried both connection options about whether the difference in quality is worth the money, but you can get the 890 for Ł458 inc. free delivery from places such as RGB Direct, which might make it a little more affordable.

On the subject of -RAM discs, most ordinary DVD players will not play them. They're excellent for watch and wipe, but not for material you want to share with friends and family.

Murray

Posted by: childe

Thanks again murrayp.

This price for the 890 is about Ł100 less than I had seen elsewhere, but is still Ł90 more than the 880. However, interestingly I have just read an article that suggests that in some cases the analogue AV inputs will give better quality copies than the i.link inputs, depending on the type of content, and that in any event the difference is marginal.

Decisions, decisions... However it does occur to me that compatibility is not an issue with DVD in the way it was with VHS vs Betamax. I think it likely in the future players will be built to accommodate all the major formats. Or does someone know of a technical reason why this will not happen?

I've never bought anything this expensive on line before. Do you know how good RGB Direct are? Presumably if I have a warrenty claim I would have to go direct to the manufacturer?

I'm still interested in how you get your firmware upgrades as I've never come across this before. How does this work? I like the idea of the machine being able to be upgraded for free after I buy it.

Posted by: Richardr

It obviously depends on what output your DV home video has, but if it has i.link you do really want to use that in preference to the three phono output you mentioned. On those, the red and white are for sound, and the yellow is for a composite picture.

The difference in picture quality should be greater than the difference between RGB and composite on TIVO. i.link should keep the video in the digital domain from DV to DVD.

Posted by: childe

Thanks Richard

What you say does make sense, and yes my DV camcorder does have i.link out. I wonder if there is anyone out there who has done the comparison who would care to report their results?

Ł90 (for an i.link input) is not much in the great scheme of things, but I would still rather not pay it if its not going to give much benefit, especially as the result on DVD is in digital format so further copies can be made digitally in the future if I want.

Posted by: johala_reewi

quote:
Originally posted by childe

I'm still interested in how you get your firmware upgrades as I've never come across this before. How does this work? I like the idea of the machine being able to be upgraded for free after I buy it.

If you have a + DVD recorder, you can monitor the unofficial DVDplus website.

http://www.dvdplusrw.org

Downloads for firmware upgrades are archived here. After downloading, you burn them onto a CD (following the instructions given!!) then pop the CD into your DVDR.

Posted by: childe

quote:
Originally posted by johala_reewi
If you have a + DVD recorder, you can monitor the unofficial DVDplus website.

http://www.dvdplusrw.org

Downloads for firmware upgrades are archived here. After downloading, you burn them onto a CD (following the instructions given!!) then pop the CD into your DVDR.

Thanks. This does sound a bit dodgy, I wonder how many cause more problems than they solve due to not being implemented correctly by the user? Who provides the upgrades? Is it Phillips?

Posted by: murrayp

quote:
Originally posted by childe
I've never bought anything this expensive on line before. Do you know how good RGB Direct are? Presumably if I have a warrenty claim I would have to go direct to the manufacturer?

I'm still interested in how you get your firmware upgrades as I've never come across this before. How does this work? I like the idea of the machine being able to be upgraded for free after I buy it.

I haven't used RGB myself but I haven't heard anything bad about them. I can understand you hesitation but I've made all of my major purchases for the last few years online with a variety of retailers and I've yet to have any trouble.

With regard to problems you can always call the manufacturer for help and advice, but your contract is with the retailer and they will be responsible for arranging the repair or replacement of a faulty machine. If you pay by credit card you have additional protection because the credit card company is jointly liable with the retailer for any card purchases of Ł100 or more. It's worth taking a look at the DTI Consumer Gateway which has details of your rights as a consumer generally and with regard to online purchases in particular.

For the updates, as johala_reewi said, you can download files from which you burn a CD-ROM that you just put into the recorder and it automatically upgrades. The process takes ten to fifteen minutes and is pretty robust - the DVDR will perform integrity check on all of the files on the CD before it attempts to upgrade and it will only accept firmware that it is intend for its model. The firmware issued by Philips so it's all totally legit and above board.

Posted by: childe

murrayp - thanks

I am now virtually committed to buying something (890 or DMR30 probably), but probably in the Sales as I don't need it before then. I won't NEED it then either, but that's a different matter as I'm sure you understand.;)

Eric

Posted by: childe

Having spent most of this weekend on the web reading various newgroups and forums on this subject I feel a little better informed now.

One of my findings is that +RW is susceptible to accidental over recording of content already on the disc. Has anyone actually encountered that?

Also I have read that as +RW and +R do not have the same error correction encoding they are more vulnerable to disc damage than -RAM. Can anyone comment on this?

These 2 factors are integral to my choice as I want the copies I make to be as durable and reliable as possible.

Finally, on the subject of these Philips firmware upgrades, I have not heard of anything similar for the Panasonic units. Is this because they don't need them or because Panasonic does not offer such a service?

Posted by: manolan

The 890 will start recording at the currently selected chapter in the main disc menu. I don't think it automatically goes to the end, though I only have two discs at the moment, so I haven't been swapping all the time! If you just load up a disc and press record, you could overwrite something, its true. However, if you just take the time to review the menu, you shouldn't have a problem. More of a concern to me is how easy it is to erase a chapter when you go to playback (they're adjacent menu options), but you do have to confirm.

Posted by: woody

I,ve found that empiredirect have the Philips DVDR880 for Ł360 inc Vat + Ł7.99 P&P. This is the cheapist I,ve found lately.

Posted by: murrayp

quote:
Originally posted by childe
Having spent most of this weekend on the web reading various newgroups and forums on this subject I feel a little better informed now.

One of my findings is that +RW is susceptible to accidental over recording of content already on the disc. Has anyone actually encountered that?

Also I have read that as +RW and +R do not have the same error correction encoding they are more vulnerable to disc damage than -RAM. Can anyone comment on this?

These 2 factors are integral to my choice as I want the copies I make to be as durable and reliable as possible.

Finally, on the subject of these Philips firmware upgrades, I have not heard of anything similar for the Panasonic units. Is this because they don't need them or because Panasonic does not offer such a service?

Once again, Philips recorders are designed as VCR replacements and +RW discs are just like VCR tapes - you're supposed to be able to record over existing recordings and if you happen to carelessly hit the record button after you left it half way through watching or editing an existing recording then it'll get recorded over. However, if you press and hold the record button for a second it will always force recording to start after all the existing recordings. Also, you can toggle the disc between locked and unlocked, a bit like removing that little record tab on a VHS or covering it with sticky tape. When it's locked you can't change it, just play back or unlock.

+R/RW has normal DVD error correction - it couldn't be compatible with standard DVD players otherwise. -RAM may well have superior error correction to the DVD norm but then they're not compatible with standard DVD players so they can do whatever they like. It's true that -RAM will be safer from scratches but that's because they're in caddies like 3.5 inch diskettes. However, the NEW TDK ARMOR PLATED DVD MEDIA should suit your needs.

The firmware in the Panasonics (and Pioneers) can certainly be updated and there are unofficial updates around to allow you to remove the copy protection or fit a bigger hard disk in the HD models, etc though I don't know about official updates.

Posted by: childe

murrayp - brilliant, you've won me over again. Those TDK discs look to be exactly what I want. I especially like the bit about there being very little price premium. I also like the option you mention with the Philips of being able to lock a disc so it can't be recorded over.

Looks like its going to be the 890 afterall as its both the cheapest vs the Panasonic and has i.LINK, but I'm still going to try and wait until after Xmas.

Anyway, I'm going to be getting a free 890 after Xmas because I've just entered a competition and I feel lucky, so its all coming together nicely!

Posted by: childe

I've just noticed that on the TDK site (http://www.tdk.com/recmedia/dvd/index.html) they do not appear to offer +RW disc's. Does anyone know if this is correct? If so this scuppers my 890 plans as I would need +RW to get the editing facilities I want.

Correction - It seems they do offer +RW, but this is not shown on the front page, but in the Specifications page - panic over, I think. I hope they offer armoured versions of +RW when it comes out.

Posted by: johala_reewi

quote:
Originally posted by childe
Having spent most of this weekend on the web reading various newgroups and forums on this subject I feel a little better informed now.

One of my findings is that +RW is susceptible to accidental over recording of content already on the disc. Has anyone actually encountered that?

Possibly once. I had been recording robot wars series 6. After the second episode, I had two items on the disc menu. The 1st episode and the 2nd episode. The 2nd episode played perfectly but the 1st episode had been zapped and was all of 2 seconds in length but it had been recorded OK (because I had watched it). This has not happened again. Now use tivo to timeshift TV programmes (not the DVDR).

Posted by: hamradio

quote:
Originally posted by childe
murrayp - brilliant, you've won me over again. Those TDK discs look to be exactly what I want. I especially like the bit about there being very little price premium. I also like the option you mention with the Philips of being able to lock a disc so it can't be recorded over.

Looks like its going to be the 890 afterall as its both the cheapest vs the Panasonic and has i.LINK, but I'm still going to try and wait until after Xmas.

Anyway, I'm going to be getting a free 890 after Xmas because I've just entered a competition and I feel lucky, so its all coming together nicely!

for DVD disks it may be worth trying
www.bigpockets.co.uk they seem to have a good selection
ken lee

Posted by: Ashley

I ordered a Philips 890 from www.unbeatable.co.uk yesterday afternoon.
This morning at 0915 it arrived!

Price was Ł447.99 + Ł7.99 p&p via City Link

Now to work out how to connect it to my system.

Posted by: murrayp

Welcome to the family. Don't forget to check out DVDplusRW where you'll find a lot of information and a bunch of fellow Philips owners hanging out in the Forums ready to help.

Posted by: childe

Now I've joined the club with an 890, arrived yesterday.

Superb! Even rivals my Tivo, only time will tell which wins out.

Thanks murrayp and others for your advice

Posted by: manolan

quote:
Originally posted by childe
...
Superb! Even rivals my Tivo, only time will tell which wins out.
...

Not sure I follow that.

It has no season pass functionality; you can only record programmes serially (so if you delete one, you can only fit a recording of the same length in); and you can't watch something while it records something else.

A great piece of kit and ideal for archiving, but not a rival for the TiVo.

Posted by: childe

quote:
Originally posted by manolan
Not sure I follow that.

It has no season pass functionality; you can only record programmes serially (so if you delete one, you can only fit a recording of the same length in); and you can't watch something while it records something else.

A great piece of kit and ideal for archiving, but not a rival for the TiVo.

You're right, I'm probably overwhelmed with "new toy euphoria" whereas I've had Tivo for over 2 years and am probably taking its virtues too much for granted.

Sounds like a mistress and wife scenario a la Fatal Attraction. Fortunately the 2 units are well separated on my AV stand.

Seriously though, I am very impressed so far, especially with the quality of copies from old VCR to DVD. They really do seem better than on the video tape.

One question I would like some opinions on is whether I would get the same quality copying my DV video via s-vhs at HQ as I would copying via firewire at SP (I have the 890). If so I might do this to get 2 hours of very good quality home video archiving per disc.

I only have a 25" narrowscreen TV now, but will certainly upgrade to at least 32" widescreen soon (which is equivalent to a 26" narrowscreen) and to something even bigger eventually.

Any views on this?

Posted by: sammoj

quote:
Originally posted by manolan
Not sure I follow that.

It has no season pass functionality; you can only record programmes serially (so if you delete one, you can only fit a recording of the same length in); and you can't watch something while it records something else.

A great piece of kit and ideal for archiving, but not a rival for the TiVo.

Not to mention that you also have to keep feeding it with a disk every 2 hours of recording time!!! I've got 40 hours at the same quality on my 120GB Tivo before it runs out of space.....

The DVDR980 would certainly go before the Tivo, I've also found it very fussy about disks - I threw out 20 Intenso disks recently when it just refused point blank to work with them and the supplier refused a return as the packs had been opened...

Give me Tivo anytime.

John

Posted by: gblades

For cheap media have a look at http://www.blankdiscshop.co.uk

Ł11.60 for 10* DVD+R
Ł11.25 for 25* DVD-R

Posted by: runner

quote:
originally posted by Childe
I only have a 25" narrowscreen TV now, but will certainly upgrade to at least 32" widescreen soon (which is equivalent to a 26" narrowscreen) and to something even bigger eventually.

Get a plasma screen. Sell the car/a kidney/anything to raise the spondulies. It will be worth it, trust me.:D

Posted by: TheBear

Anyone thinking of buying a Philips DVD recorder should read this article before parting with their hard earned cash:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7326

Posted by: childe

Its true these machines are not perfect, and mine (890) has locked up a few times in the 2 months I have had it. However a quick turn off/on fixed it and all copies have been perfect (so far) and I am very happy with it.

The source of this report is the DVD+RW forum and it is true that numerous faults are discussed there. However the same is true of the Tivo forum, and I for one would not part with my Tivo. As with the Tivo forum it tends to be those with problems who write about them.

I am not dismissing this article, just suggesting some balance is required.

Posted by: TheBear

Surely they shouldn't be that buggy...?

Posted by: childe

In an ideal world I would agree. However if this is your view then you presumably don't own a PC because they are known to crash all the time.

For me the problems I have so far encountered are bearable (no pun intended), but for some others they are not. My point was that the ones reporting problems may not be truly representative, just as those reporting Tivo problems on this forum are not always representative.

That said, if I do get some serious problems I will not be happy...

Posted by: TheBear

quote:
Originally posted by childe
In an ideal world I would agree. However if this is your view then you presumably don't own a PC because they are known to crash all the time.

It doesn't necessarily follow that a piece of AV gear should crash as often as a PC...

I can see entirely why people are getting so upset when their DVD recorder throws a wobbly simply because their VCR, telly doesn't exhibit such behaviour.

Posted by: childe

quote:
Originally posted by TheBear
It doesn't necessarily follow that a piece of AV gear should crash as often as a PC...

I can see entirely why people are getting so upset when their DVD recorder throws a wobbly simply because their VCR, telly doesn't exhibit such behaviour.

It seems to me that there is definite convergence between PC's and many other electrical items, including AV equipment. Perhaps expectations will have to evolve accordingly...

I agree that people should get upset if their kit does not work. My original point was that the "evidence" of systematic faults is anecdotal and will, due to its source ( a forum), inevitably be skewed towards those with faults to report, just as on the Tivo forum. The situation may not be as bad as it seems, or perhaps it is, who knows (other than Philips)?

Posted by: manolan

I agree AV kit shouldn't crash. It's also true that there's convergence going on generally in the electronics industry. Some of the latest mobile phones, for example, have quite severe bugs.

My experience is that the Philips kit is built as a VCR replacement for the non-technical user. In this capacity, it is even more important that it doesn't fail. However, the two times my DVDR-890 has crashed were both when I was trying to do a rather non-VCR thing, so I think I can cut them some slack.

This VCR replacement mindset is a bit of a drawback overall. You certainly don't have the kind of editing flexibility I would expect on a PC. Both times when it crashed, I was trying to cut less than a second off the end of a recording. I know, I know, but the DVD format makes you want to do really precise edits! Now I just mark it as a chapter and hide it. Not really a problem. In both cases, a simple on-off cycle cured it without any loss of data.

I haven't explored the types of errors people have been having, but a cursory glance shows me that many are related to firmware updates. I wouldn't expect the average user to do these. It may be many of the others are, similarly, when the machine is operating outside normal parameters.

Posted by: johala_reewi

quote:
Originally posted by TheBear
Anyone thinking of buying a Philips DVD recorder should read this article before parting with their hard earned cash:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7326

A lot of the problems with the 880/890 models stem from a rogue firmware update from Philips which many users on that forum applied to their machines. My 880 works fine and I have no desire to rush out and install the latest firmware to see what happens (if it aint broke...). That said, the same website also has instructions on how to back rev the firmware to a stable version.