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Birds of Prey Coffee Talk (Possible Tagged Spoilers)
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Posted by: TiVoLance

Ok so is this show going to be another Dark Angel or Alias? I'm hoping that the show differentiates itself this fall. All I know about the show is the commercial and what’s on the website, http://www.thewb.com/Shows/Show/0,7353,||1002,00.html.

Snippet from the site:

The Batman legend takes an unexpected turn when the Caped Crusader vanishes from the crime-ridden city of New Gotham and his legacy is taken over by a trio of beautiful and relentless heroines - the Birds of Prey. Barbara Gordon (Dina Meyer) started out as Batman's protégé, Batgirl, but an attack by The Joker left her confined to a wheelchair. Reinventing herself as Oracle, she takes under her wing Helena Kyle (Ashley Scott), the secret daughter of Batman and Catwoman, who quickly grows into the fierce and beautiful "Huntress," and Dinah (Rachel Skarsten), a teenage runaway who is drawn to the city by meta-human visions. With the help of the only honest cop in New Gotham, Detective Jesse Reese (Shemar Moore), the Birds of Prey fight their first battle against a mysterious madwoman (Mia Sara) who is bent on their destruction.

A thread from July was discussing people that had already seen the pilot. I was hoping to get some discussion going and get some background info from people that people that have read the comics without spoiling too much for us. Let's tag any spoilers from those of you that watched the show already off the web. Mainly my questions are:

1) Where did Batman and Catwomen go? Why aren't they raising their daughter? Comic Book background info would be nice.

2) Is this show going to be mainly realistic (like Alias or to some degree Dark Angel) or will there be superpowers like Smallville?

3) Do people think it will be a villain of the week show?

Since it's the last show to premiere this fall (2 weeks) I hope it’s worth the wait.

Posted by: DanT

#1) This is explained in the pilot. If you can't wait:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Batman didn't know about the daughter. When Selena Kyle (aka Catwoman) is killed by one of the Joker's henchmen at the same time the Joker is trying to kill Barbara Gordon (aka Batgirl), Batman is so distressed over the fact that he got them killed he splits town.

#2) There are definitely some super-human abilities, although I'm not so sure I'd call them powers. Psychic visions and superhuman strength/agility are definitely included.

#3) Could be, but they're definitely setting it up for a long-term story arc villain as well.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I think it's a villain of the year (Big Bad, a la Buffy) thing, with Harley Quinn up first. But others will no doubt show up along the way...

Posted by: Philosofy

I'm just disappointed that they don't kill off Batman, but just have him leave. Batman abandons Gotham when he is stone cold and in the ground: not a minute before. In fact, he would probably leave surprises for baddies after he's gone.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
I'm just disappointed that they don't kill off Batman, but just have him leave. Batman abandons Gotham when he is stone cold and in the ground: not a minute before. In fact, he would probably leave surprises for baddies after he's gone.

Heck, even when he died in Dark Knight Returns, he STILL didn't leave! :)

Posted by: TiVoLance

That's why I asked that question. WHY in the heck would Batman abandon his city AND his daughter. Well maybe it was time to retire (how OLD was he by that time anyway) but I'd at least train some replacements instead of fleeing and letting crime that over.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
That's why I asked that question. WHY in the heck would Batman abandon his city AND his daughter. Well maybe it was time to retire (how OLD was he by that time anyway) but I'd at least train some replacements instead of fleeing and letting crime that over.

Somebody (I thought it was Phil, but maybe not) mentioned that they might be reworking that aspect of the pilot, and not have Batman leave. After all, Gotham is a big city; I would think you could have Batman operating without ever needing to show up. Heck, Batman is still a "legend" to most Gothamites--people question if he exists or not.

Posted by: Bryanmc

You answer question #2 in the paragraph you pulled from the site.

There are meta-humans with enhanced abilities. How far these abilities can go, we don't know.

Posted by: Philosofy

That wasn't me Tim, but, if I had my druthers, I'd just have Batman disappear, and be presumed dead.

Posted by: Bryanmc

Do the creators just flat out not want the Bat in the series?

I would think that doom's idea (wherever he got it) would work ok. You could even have Onstar guy make an appearance every now and then in the shadows without doing anything.

Posted by: Philosofy

Bryan, I don't think they have the rights to it. Originally, they weren't going to have Bats, Catwoman, or even call the Joker by name because of this issue. Then, somehow, they got the OK to use Bats in the pilot.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Yeah, Batman can't be in the series for copyright purposes.

As for his absence, let's face it, he's never been the most stable person on the Earth. I think the logic is, after his girlfriend was murdered and his protégée crippled, he snapped. Considering how tightly wound he is to begin with, that's not entirely unreasonable... And as has been mentioned, he didn't know about the daughter.

Posted by: TiVoLance

Hmmm I get your point. I overlooked that he didn't know about his daughter. I wonder if the Oracle will just like Professer Xavier on the Xmen. I think it would be cool if they made her more of a women driven crazy from her accident with dead zone-ish trances. Lets see some darkness/gothic drama!

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

It's Black Canary who's the psychic, not Oracle...Oracle is just a computer geek.

Posted by: Graymalkin

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
It's Black Canary who's the psychic, not Oracle...Oracle is just a computer geek.

Haven't the producers said something to the effect that Dinah may not become the Black Canary as she appears in the comics?

Darn. I was all ready for a gorgeous blonde in a black leather bustier, fishnet stockings, and a vest. Now, who could we get to play her? H'mm...

HOW ABOUT BRITNEY!? :D

Posted by: WinBear

What kind of power does Black Canary have in the comics these days? In the Pre-Invasion/Pre-Crisis (can you tell when I stopped reading?) days, she had the sonic scream.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I think I heard somewhere that this BC is the daughter of the comic book BC...

Posted by: JYoung

Britney is too dainty to play Dinah Laurel Lance

http://www.canarynoir.com/sitegraphics/costumes/ray7.jpg
http://www.canarynoir.com/sitegraphics/costumes/glga82.jpg

Winbear, in the post Crisis reality, Black Canary is the daughter of the JSA's Black Canary and a founding member of the Justice League. She had the scream, lost it in the Grell Green Arrow years and got it back in the Birds of Prey comic book.

Recommended reading, Mark Waid's JLA:Year One
(although I stopped collecting after they turned Hal Jordan into a psychotic killer)

Posted by: DanT

OK, I haven't read comic books since I was about 10, but I just can't see a superhero named "Black Canary" striking fear into the hearts of criminals. Come on, a canary?! That's a puny little bird that does nothing but tweet. You'd think they could come up with a better name than that.

Posted by: Graymalkin

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
OK, I haven't read comic books since I was about 10, but I just can't see a superhero named "Black Canary" striking fear into the hearts of criminals. Come on, a canary?! That's a puny little bird that does nothing but tweet. You'd think they could come up with a better name than that.

Blackhawk was already taken. :)

Most heroines in Golden Age (1930s-1950s) comics did not have powerful-sounding code names. The comics reflected the sexist attitudes of the times. Even Wonder Woman's creator had this creepy obsession with whips and chains.

Some heroines back there were: Miss America, Doll Girl, Golden Girl, Lady Blackhawk, Lady Luck, Liberty Belle, Venus, Black Venus, Mary Marvel, Miss America, Miss Masque, Miss Victory, Pat Patriot, Pat Savage, Phantom Lady, Rima the Jungle Girl, Sheena, Spitfire, Sun Girl, etc. As you can see, there were big on "Miss" and "Girl."

Posted by: Pan Chun

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
OK, I haven't read comic books since I was about 10, but I just can't see a superhero named "Black Canary" striking fear into the hearts of criminals. Come on, a canary?! That's a puny little bird that does nothing but tweet. You'd think they could come up with a better name than that.

Actually, for "girl heroes", I think the psychology was more to DISTRACT with a racy costume and cause the enemy to UNDERESTIMATE you. Fits perfectly, with the name thing, too, IMO, 'cause Dinah could kick just about any buttocks she needed to, thank you...and generally WITHOUT getting a run in her fishnets, OR losing her wig! :) :up:

Posted by: Bryanmc

TMI warning:

Besides, with those costumes the guys had such a harder time fighting against them.

"Whoa! Nice costume! No, I am going to fight you. Just give me a minute...... I can't really stand up right now......Hang on.......baseball.........cold showers......Phyllis Diller....READY!

No, dang it......hold on...."

;)

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Bryanmc: Maybe Gotham is overrun by gay supervillains...now that Bats is gone, anyway... :D

(That was certainly a problem with Batdude and Catbabe in the comics...apparently in the mythology of the show, as well..."I'm looking forward to our date on Friday, Selina." "No, silly, we're fighting on Friday. The date's on Saturday.")

Posted by: TiVoLance

Well I thought the show was interesting. Not quite Smallville but potential. I never read the comics though. Were they very faithful? It looks like they will be doing the villian of the week from next weeks preview. At least its not a kryptonite monster ;) So overall:

Gothic look- Pretty good sufficently dark and urban.

Interest- So-So for me at this point

Style- Hmm I must give the ladies a A+ in this area. Even with jumping out in the cold the Huntress looks like she is in a Mabeline commerical.

Will I turn in next week- Yes It's better than the Twlight Zone at this point.

Posted by: Philosofy

I give it a C+. The beginning felt rushed. Sets and costumes were good, but the acting was so-so. It could have been the script. I hope things get better. The whole cat thing with Huntress, and the way she sneaks around was kind of hokey. And another thing: its not "Joker", it's "THE Joker."

Where do I know Ashley Scott from? She looks real familiar.

Posted by: JYoung

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Scott,+Ashley+(II)

Hmmm, she did some Dark Angel and AI....

Posted by: Knative

It seems more like a dark version of Mutant X than anything else. Still, I enjoy Mutant X every now & then and a darker version should be more interesting. Doesn't look like a must see show but I'll keep the SP around.

Posted by: mwhip

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
And another thing: its not "Joker", it's "THE Joker."

And why was he played by Jay Leno?;)

Posted by: bobcarn

quote:
Originally posted by Knative
It seems more like a dark version of Mutant X than anything else. Still, I enjoy Mutant X every now & then and a darker version should be more interesting. Doesn't look like a must see show but I'll keep the SP around.

Wow. That is a pretty good description. It definitely had a "deja vue" kind of feeling to it.

I posted this in the other thread, but everyone seems to be posting here, so I'm cutting and pasting my posting here and adding to it.

-----------------------------------
Mixed feelings here. It has potential. The Huntress is a totally cool babe. That was a very poor Joker. I dislike the fact that Batman "disappeared". That just doesn't seem right. I also at first didn't like the superpower aspects of it, but then I remembered that if you have Batman, then of course there's other superpowered people (Superman, for instance), so I can accept the superpower aspects of it. I like the fact that it had a kind of "Dark Angel" air around it. The little synopsis at the beginning by Alfred could have been done a lot better. It left more questions than it answered. If you're going to do an intro with a voiceover to educate viewers, then you do it all the way and fill them in. Instead, it instantly confused you. For example: Dinah saying her dreams would come true when she was a little girl. I take it that Barbara getting shot didn't happen yet, but was going to happen? Yet it obviously happened. Very confusing.

Why the name change to "New Gotham"? Where's "Old Gotham" or "Gotham"? Is it the same city? With the name change, it suggests that it isn't.

I do like the fact that Batman is considered to be only an urban legend by the majority of the population. Thinking about that, I honestly think that it's an improvement over the comic books. I really dislike that he's disappeared. If anything, people close to him getting shot will just make him more pissed and determined to clean everything up.

The Huntress is totally cool. She's also really hot and a total babe! And from the looks of the clips for next week's episode, the night detective that she meets (that black/hispanic guy) is equally as hot (if not hotter). He looked quite fine in his bathing trunks. So I guess I just talked myself into moving it up in my Tivo's Season Passes.

Posted by: Pan Chun

RE: "New Gotham"

In the comics a huge earthquake devastated Gotham and, for over a year, it was cut loose from the U.S. and declared a "No Man's Land"...lawless and dilapidated. Those who stayed behind after the evacuation enjoyed no benefits and few protections of being a citizen of such a major city. Fear and violence ran rampant. (Yes, most of the main characters stayed behind...Batman (of course), Commissioner Gordon, Oracle, etc.)

Since this series is set in the future, perhaps a similar occurence has caused "New Gotham" to rise from the rubble of Old Gotham City. <shrug> I dunno.

I think I liked the pilot better in its original form (the one that was available over the summer on the net). I'll have to give it another look...it was fairly late last night when I watched this version.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

The one thing I liked a LOT better about the broadcast version vs. the original pilot is Mia Sara, who looks a LOT more like she could be a doctor than Sherilyn Fenn did. Sara can't be that much older than Fenn, but she looks her age; Fenn struck me as a starlet pretending to be a doctor.

Edit: Ha! I just checked; Sara is actually two years younger than Fenn!

Posted by: IJustLikeTivo

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
The one thing I liked a LOT better about the broadcast version vs. the original pilot is Mia Sara, who looks a LOT more like she could be a doctor than Sherilyn Fenn did. Sara can't be that much older than Fenn, but she looks her age; Fenn struck me as a starlet pretending to be a doctor.

Edit: Ha! I just checked; Sara is actually two years younger than Fenn!

I don't care how old she is. Mia Sara is still a babe. I preferred the long hair from the Ferris days but she still has killer pegs. I have to say the Huntress is a total babe as well. Right now it stays on the SP list for looks alone. Iit needs to get better but with the good eye candy, I can wait....

IJLT

Posted by: unoriginal

I am only about 20 minute in but I know they are going to do a Smallville crossover. They hinted about the girls abilities being caused by recent meteor showers. :rolleyes:

Posted by: bobcarn

quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal
I am only about 20 minute in but I know they are going to do a Smallville crossover. They hinted about the girls abilities being caused by recent meteor showers. :rolleyes:

That would be really surprising, and even more upsetting to the timeline and "history" than what they've been doing. In Smallville, Clark's still in high school, and in Birds of Prey, Batman's actually gone through a good chunk of his career. Batman and Superman are supposed to be in the same time period.

Posted by: chris1

I was rather disappointed. The costumes and scenery are great but the acting and plot are lacking. The chick music doesn't particulary appeal to me either. BoP is on the bubble for me.

Posted by: Graymalkin

quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal
I am only about 20 minute in but I know they are going to do a Smallville crossover. They hinted about the girls abilities being caused by recent meteor showers. :rolleyes:

I don't think Oracle put it quite that way. She was talking about a number of possible factors in creating metahumans, and the "meteor showers" was like a throwaway line -- which made me chuckle when I heard it.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by Graymalkin

I don't think Oracle put it quite that way. She was talking about a number of possible factors in creating metahumans, and the "meteor showers" was like a throwaway line -- which made me chuckle when I heard it.

Actually, the Huntress said the line.

And it was just a little throwaway nod. Something like, "Weird things have even happened with meteor showers."

It was funny, and a good line but there's no indication of a crossover and I don't think it would ever happen. As Bob says, it wouldn't fit time wise.

Posted by: unoriginal

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc

Actually, the Huntress said the line.

And it was just a little throwaway nod. Something like, "Weird things have even happened with meteor showers."

It was funny, and a good line but there's no indication of a crossover and I don't think it would ever happen. As Bob says, it wouldn't fit time wise.

Is everyone forgetting about the new superman movie being made?

Posted by: ikobi

Anyone else have a feeling of deja vu all over again while watching the show? Every time the psychic girl (Dinah?) was on the screen I kept thinking of Kristin Kreuk (Lana Lang in Smallville). They do the same sort of facial smirks and have similar facial features.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal

Is everyone forgetting about the new superman movie being made?

Are you saying that there might be a tie in with the Supes movie and Birds of Prey?

Seems unlikely.

Posted by: unoriginal

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc

Are you saying that there might be a tie in with the Supes movie and Birds of Prey?

Seems unlikely.

No that's not what I am saying.
I am talking about what Hollywood thinks about staying true to the story.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal

No that's not what I am saying.
I am talking about what Hollywood thinks about staying true to the story.

Oh, oh gotcha.

And you're right. However, Smallville has exceeded my expectations in that regard and with Birds of Prey by the same folks (I think) I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

The Supes movie is being handled by totally different people and really shows it. :(

Posted by: harvscar

Gotham Clock Tower, a pretty definitive Birds of Prey site has this spoiler for episode #8, the only mention I've seen of Metropolis so far. This spoiler may or may not be true:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
* A hero "from Metropolis" that Barbara knew from her days as Batgirl comes to town. His name is "Nightstrike." He's entering Helena's turf, and Helena doesn't seem to like him.
* It really sounds like this is supposed to be "Nightwing," but we're hearing that it's most definitely not. This means there's still a chance to see Nightwing someday after all... this character has enhanced senses, which of course Dick Grayson does not.

Posted by: tivojoego

WOW just briefly reading through the posts and I feel like a lone wolf- I
L O V E D it thought it had great tempo and the visuals were awesome [particularily the IMAX imersion from BC to Oracle].

I don't get it - lots of cuts about Joker or The Joker [not sure if I agree he was always THE will need to pull out The Dark Knight ] and that he wasn't right - did I miss something or was his part all of 7 seconds of a flashback scene during the opening credits. And the music - liked it alot added quite a bit.

A dramatic understatement - you guys seem to be grading on quite a high expectation curve and I guess I have the advantage/disadvantage of having NEVER seen smallville [Supes sucks and the Dark Knight rules period] :D :D :D :D

Posted by: TiVoLance

I thought the meteor quip was just for fun. I was thinking about all the trouble they went to to make the show 69 minutes. Why didn't they just not rush things, explained more backstory, and cut pilot into 2 shows or one 2 hour one? When I said the show was so-so I really was meaning that it felt "rushed". Like they were trying to cram WAY too much info into a short amount of time while keeping the action up.

Did anyone else feel bad for dinah when she was exploring the bad section of town alone? Its not as if she has any superpowers. Some common thug could have got her (just like when she first met the Huntress).

Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
Where do I know Ashley Scott from? She looks real familiar.

She was blond in Dark Angel as Logan's friend...

Rasheed

Posted by: bobcarn

quote:
Originally posted by tivojoego
I don't get it - lots of cuts about Joker or The Joker [not sure if I agree he was always THE will need to pull out The Dark Knight ] and that he wasn't right - did I miss something or was his part all of 7 seconds of a flashback scene during the opening credits. And the music - liked it alot added quite a bit.

I just thought that the few clips of the Joke I saw, he looked... I don't know...

AHHHHHHHH

Dammit. A spider just crawled down my wall next to me! Everyone's asleep so I had to kill it myself. :( It's smushed on my wall here and I don't want to touch it again. Ugh. I just put a box next to it so I can't see it. I'll get Scott to clean it up for me tomorrow. Damn, I wish I wasn't afraid of those things. Anyway......

Joker. I just thought he looked a bit cheesy. Maybe because Jack Nicholson looked so menacing as him. I'll say this, Batman crashing through that door and tackling him was pretty neat. You didn't even see Batman. But that's what was kind of neat, becuase that's the way I figure Bats would be. Just BAM! Crashing through a door and taking out the bad guys! Batgirl I never liked. Batgirl is a lame tacky piece of baggage left over from when DC was going through their sidekick phase.

Oh, one more thing. The cat growling was wearing thin at times. At one point, she was obviously not opening her mouth, yet you heard this tiger roar. I couldn't tell if it was her supposed to be doing it, or just a sound effect thrown in for ambiance. If you have to think about it, then they didn't do it right.

Posted by: Philosofy

I agree with the cat sounds. Also, if you didn't like the old Batgirl, you should check out the new one. She kicks ass. She was never taught to speak, so the part of the brain used for speach got developed to read people's body language. She can anticipate your moves, and she was trained to be an assassin. She is the best martial artist in the DC universe, beating Lady Shiva in a fight to take the title. And she's only 16.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

For that matter, the "new" Catwoman is pretty wild, too. Actually, the same old person, but a whole new attitude in the writing and art; very funky neo-noir 21st-century '40s. Or something like that.

Posted by: Airlie

About the only thing I liked from the show was the use of Mark Hamil as the voice of the Joker. He did an excellent job in Batman the Animated Series and I think he sounds perfect as the Joker.

Posted by: doom1701

Well, I haven't read through all the postings, so here's my initial unadulterated thoughts:

Overall, not bad. Yeah, they went more for the Batman Returns catwoman with semi-superpowers, which explains the Huntress' super powers. And the Batgirl outfit didn't look all that great, but it's pretty good.

The cat sounds were WAY overdone.

Most interesting to me is that it's never said that Batman left the city--one of my big gripes with the initial concept. Sure, we're told that he "disappeared", but there's a couple of things that imply that he might still be around:

1. Dr. Quinzel says something to the effect "Your father is one of the richest men in the country, yet you live with a school teacher?" If Bruce Wayne had disappeared, wouldn't she have mentioned that? One of the richest men in the country just disappeared 7 years ago, and when you learn that your patient is his daughter, you just casually mention his status? If Bruce were missing, it would have been mentioned.

2. Alfred still has work. Why would the manor sit empty for 7 years? Especially with the cave and all under it?

Batman may have disappeared, or perhaps gone even more secluded. After all, Joker's revenge was to hurt those that were close to him. His natural response would be to have no one close to him, in order to prevent the same fate. Perhaps Batman is even still around, but much more of a legend now, as he doesn't even associate with his old comrades.

Posted by: bonehead

I liked it. The pacing was a bit off and a lot of things felt rushed, but I can forgive that. This was a pilot, so they had a lot of groundwork to lay and only an hour to do it in. I think most of the complaints people are voicing wouldn't apply if they had done a proper 2 hour series premiere. I'll definitely be watching again next week.

BTW, am I the only one that thinks Dina Meyer just gets hotter and hotter with age?

Posted by: doom1701

One other thing I forgot to mention--did I miss them mentioning just how Joker knew that Batgirl was Barbara Gordon?

Posted by: bobcarn

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
One other thing I forgot to mention--did I miss them mentioning just how Joker knew that Batgirl was Barbara Gordon?

I never thought about that. I guess I didn't think about it because her getting shot by the Joker and paralyzed was directly out of the comic book, so it was something I was already familiar with. As soon as I saw the girl in the wheelchair and heard her name was Oracle, I knew she was Barbara Gordon and was shot by the Joker in the past.

Posted by: bobcarn

quote:
Originally posted by Airlie
About the only thing I liked from the show was the use of Mark Hamil as the voice of the Joker. He did an excellent job in Batman the Animated Series and I think he sounds perfect as the Joker.

Yeah, Mark Hamil was a real gem on the toons! His Joker was absolutely the best voice acting of any of the characters. Did you ever see the full-length animated movie, "Mask of the Phantasm"? It was pretty decent!

Posted by: Pan Chun

They've made it clear time and time again in the books...

Joker is CRAZY, but definitely NOT stupid.

Posted by: sean67854

I can't believe no one has mentioned the spider sense line.

Posted by: bobcarn

I forgot about that "spider sense" line! LOL! I think they were making a nod to the Spider-Man movie when Peter's aunt tells him "You're not Superman, you know!"