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Minimum Needed for HDTiVo

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Posted by: J4yDubs

The other thread is getting long and a request was made a while ago to start a new thread (with a better title), so here goes.

What would be your minimum requirement for an HDTiVo? There's no need to discuss whether or not TiVo should even have an HDTiVo - that's not the point of this thread. IF TiVo were to come out with an HDTiVo, what would it have to have for you to buy it?

I currently have Comcast cable and have no intension to switch to a dish. Therefore, my requirements will be different than the dish people. I have digital cable with a HDTV sidecar (they are going to a consolidated box soon).

It would need 30 hours of recording capability (10 hours of HDTV, since there's not a whole lot of it yet). Upgradeable hard drives using the current (unsupported) methods. It would need to be able to record HDTV from my cable box (of course) and I'd like it to also record analog cable. It doesn't need to be able to record digital cable, but if it can do HDTV, it can do digital cable since you use the digital cable box to tune HDTV channels. I'd rather not use the IR blaster and instead use serial, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker (I don't have my TiVo hooked up to the digital box because of the IR blaster). A single analog tuner and inputs from the cable box (component) for HDTV and digital. Only being able to record one source at a time would be ok (but being able to record both at the same time would be better, of course, but not needed).

Basically, a stand alone series 2 with component inputs and outputs. You'll probably want to add a DVI/HTCP port also to appease the MPAA. Maybe even Firewire. But those two ports are not required currently.

My wife was mad at me Wednesday because the TiVo was set to record Enterprise. She wanted to record Bernie Mack and watch My Wife and Kids in HDTV. She had to miss Bernie Mack because I didn't get home in time to setup a VCR to tape it. She's all for getting another TiVo now, but I won't buy a regular TiVo and hook it up to the HDTV. My next PVR will be a HD PVR. Hopefully it'll be a TiVo, but I'll look at other options also.

John


Posted by: Squeak

- Don't care about the space -- as long as it is upgradable
- 2 DirecTV tuners that can record both normal and HDTV content
- 1 ATSC OTA tuner
- Normal output mechanisms that TiVo feel is appropriate

I would not expect to be able to record 3 things, only 2.

This, of course, is the HDTiVo


Posted by: DJRobX

I say do it just like the original TiVo. A 14 hour and 30 hour dual-drive model. The capacity can be mixed and matched with SD. That means a 14 hour basic unit would need:

19.2mbps HDTV x 60 s/m =
1152mbpm x 60 m/h =
69,120mbph x 1/8 b/B =
8640MBph x 14 =

... a 120GB HDD. 120GB drives aren't terribly expensive now and are pretty commonplace.

The real snag I see, and why it's probably better for TiVo to wait it out a bit, is that there may not be any way of getting the HDTV signal from a cable box into a HDTiVo. I know lots of people are getting HD via OTA, but HD over cable will be what causes HD to take off. They could put an ATSC tuner in, but I'm not sure if a standard ATSC stream is going to be available over cable networks (I know it is in some areas). A combination DirecTiVo/ATSC tuner would, however, make a lot of sense.


Posted by: Want1394

Do you want it to record two streams sumultaneously (like DirecTivo?)
Do you want it to be a DirecTivo unit or a SA unit?
Do you want it to also record analog input signals?
Do you want it to output an ATSC stream or analog only? How about DVI? Component?

Drive space is pretty easy - just cost. Bandwidth required is at least 6 times a DirecTivo. Adds to design and cost.


Posted by: feldon23

I thought we had 2 dozen threads on HDTIVos including one specifically called "What is the minimum needed for an HDTiVo?"


Posted by: jsmeeker

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
I thought we had 2 dozen threads on HDTIVos including one specifically called "What is the minimum needed for an HDTiVo?"


The more, the merrier, right?

I need someone to *buy* me an HDTV plus the STB to make it all work. That's my minimum requirement. Until someone does that, I won't be buying an HDTiVo.

:)


Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
I thought we had 2 dozen threads on HDTIVos including one specifically called "What is the minimum needed for an HDTiVo?"


Hmmm...maybe. I don't remember.

But I do appreciate the thought to create a separate topic here. It's a good topic. A solid topic. A topic deserving of a thread in it's own right. A topic that should be defended from marauding tangental topics.

Oh, that's right. It was my suggestion. ;)

Back to the topic... :D

Cheers,
Pony


Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
- Don't care about the space -- as long as it is upgradable
- 2 DirecTV tuners that can record both normal and HDTV content
- 1 ATSC OTA tuner
- Normal output mechanisms that TiVo feel is appropriate

I would not expect to be able to record 3 things, only 2.

This, of course, is the HDTiVo



No standard NTSC input? Well, at least that leaves out the encoder.

What normal output mechanisms do *you* feel are appropriate?

And...is this really your minimum? What if you had to choose...Dual HD sat streams or a single HD sat stream and ATSC OTA?

And is an ATSC OTA box something you'd just walk right by?

I'll be gone for a couple of days...discuss. ;)

Cheers,
Pony

(By the way, I'm not really here. Must...stop...posting...)


Posted by: feldon23

I just don't see a standalone cable HDTV TiVo being even remotely viable because 95% of HDTV signals on cable in this country are only available in the QAM256 encrypted format. The other 5% use public domain 8VSB which any OTA HDTV receiver can tune in and record.

In order for a cable HDTV TiVo to be viable, you either need an integrated TiVo/Digital Cable HDTV box (TiVo partnering with Scientific Atlanta or Motorola on an OpenCable type box) or cable providers need to quit the QAM256 and send HDTV in 8VSB.

Unless you're going to have a $2,000 HDTV TiVo that captures from ANALOG component outputs, compresses into 40Mbps 1920x1080 MPEG-2 (the absolute minimum bandwidth that could be reasonably done in real-time). It would need two IDE ATA/133 buses and have 4 hard drives just to keep up with 2 streams.


Ok, minimum:
A pair of DirecTV/OTA 8VSB tuners
USB 2.0
Component 1080i, S-Video, RCA video out
RCA, Optical audio out


Posted by: btmoore

Here is what it needs:

Dual tuners with ATSC and D* - this appears to the the standard packaging in HD STB so I assume there is a standard chip set for this. Locals are a long way off if ever on D* we will need OTA and there is so much HD content now that I am starting to have overlapping scheduling issues with HD content. For example next Tue @ 9PM in the SF bay area; NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and WB will all be broadcasting OTA HD content.
~10 - 20 hours of HD content
component video outputs / SPDIF/Toslink
firewire would be nice for archiving content

Anything else is just gravy.

OK Pony, we have told you what we want, what is tivo doing. Give me a break if there is not a hardware plan in place for supporting HD, you all are way behind. Fair is Fair, this being coy stuff is for the birds. It is time to crap or get off the pot TiVo. Does Tivo have a HD OTA/D* strategy or not?

Regards,

Brian


Posted by: J4yDubs

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
Unless you're going to have a $2,000 HDTV TiVo that captures from ANALOG component outputs, compresses into 40Mbps 1920x1080 MPEG-2 (the absolute minimum bandwidth that could be reasonably done in real-time). It would need two IDE ATA/133 buses and have 4 hard drives just to keep up with 2 streams.


Not sure why it would cost $2000? I only need to record one stream (like a SA currently). I haven't worked through the numbers yet, so I can't comment on what the bus speed would need to be. I do know that current hard drives don't come close to filling the 133 bus, so that would probably be over kill.

I agree that unless they partner with a cable box maker, they would have to record the analog out (or use Firewire if available). It's more likely that they will come out with a DirectTV box first because that will be easier to make. However, as another poster stated, cable is going to be the major provider of HDTV service in the future (IMHO). I'm not going to install a dish and an OTA antenna (for locals). My cable with HDTV currently works very smoothly. I currently receive ShowtimeHD, HBOHD, ABC-HD, NBC-HD, and PBS-HD. They're working on CBS-HD and are adding Comcast Sportsnet-HD. I also heard rumors of ESPN-HD, WB-HD, and UPN-HD next year.

Anyway, I've taken my own post off topic, so I'll stop now. One thing I did forget about in my first post is surround sound. The HDTiVo would need to pass 5.1 to a receiver.

John


Posted by: frond

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony

No standard NTSC input? Well, at least that leaves out the encoder.

What normal output mechanisms do *you* feel are appropriate?

And...is this really your minimum? What if you had to choose...Dual HD sat streams or a single HD sat stream and ATSC OTA?

And is an ATSC OTA box something you'd just walk right by?


To specifically respond to those questions...

If it's a standalone box, I think the NTSC input is important. OTA is only going to give you the local network stations, so there still needs to be a way to record all the other cable channels, etc. The Holy Grail is a TiVo integrated cable set top box that can record everything but, if that's not possible, then OTA HDTV and standard NTSC for everything else is the next best thing.

The output mechanisms should be:
DVI (for new HTDV sets that are now starting to support it)
Component (for those of us stuck with "HDTV ready" sets with no DVI)
Composite, S-Video, and RF (for people who don't know any better or want to buy the TiVo now and get an HDTV monitor once the prices drop some more)
In general, I think it's important to support all of the possible output types. Anything else gets you unhappy customers. There's nothing worse than buying something, getting it home, and then realizing you can't plug the damn thing in because it doesn't have the right connector.

If I had to choose between dual sat streams or one sat stream and one OTA, I'd go with the OTA. It's unlikely that DirecTV will be offering HD local stations any time soon, so it's important to have the ability to record the locals in HDTV format as well. My preference, of course, would be *not* to choose... I'd rather be able to record *any* two channels at once, regardless of whether they were sat or OTA.

I've currently built an HTPC to do nothing but ATSC OTA and, frankly, it sucks when compared to TiVo. Hence, I wouldn't walk right by an ATSC OTA box. I'd probably buy it, but I'd also have to keep my DirecTiVo as well, though, because I watch a lot more than just local stations.

For DirecTV customers, a single integrated receiver that can also record OTA HD is by far the most attractive option.


Posted by: jsmeeker

Why would it it have to be DirecTV combo only? What kind of HDTV programming can I get on DirecTV? HBO and HDnet? That's it, right? Or can I get all CBS shows that they broadcast in HDTV? What about other broadcast networks??

I can't get DirecTV, so a standalone unit that can record OTA broadcasts would needed. I would prefer a direct record, but if it needed to take a signal from an STB, then that would be fine, I suppose.


Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony



No standard NTSC input? Well, at least that leaves out the encoder.

What normal output mechanisms do *you* feel are appropriate?

And...is this really your minimum? What if you had to choose...Dual HD sat streams or a single HD sat stream and ATSC OTA?

And is an ATSC OTA box something you'd just walk right by?

I'll be gone for a couple of days...discuss. ;)

Cheers,
Pony

(By the way, I'm not really here. Must...stop...posting...)


Well, to answer your question, I will quote feldon, because his is the same:

Ok, minimum:
A pair of DirecTV/OTA 8VSB tuners
USB 2.0
Component 1080i, S-Video, RCA video out
RCA, Optical audio out

Except, I would add DVI as well.

Personally, I don't need and NTSC tuner -- I am on DirecTV. But, I could see the market for HDTivo designed for ATSC OTA, and NTSC. Personally I wouldn't use it.

Now if I had to choose between Duals HD Sats, and 1 Sat and 1 HD OTA -- I would want the OTA. HD Locals are not going to be the birds, if ever. However, it would be nice if you had 2 HD Sats, and 1 HD OTA, but you could only record 2 of the streams. Might not make sense, but that gives the most flexibility.

As for the people in the thread who are demanding on you to reveal secrets -- I apologize on behalf of the rest of us. I think sometimes people forget that TiVo is made up of people, just like us. I personally appreciate the input you have and understand the position you are in. As a company who have a reason for your strategy.

Seems to me though, if you are polling for opinions, then TiVo is thinking about it (although, could still be in the early stages if decisions like these are still being weighed)

quote:
And is an ATSC OTA box something you'd just walk right by?


You know, that would a tough one, because that would mean I would have to still by the HD receiver for DirecTV, and the TiVo as well. If that was the only means possible, maybe, but it would not be cost effective.


Posted by: Mike Farrington

I don't think dual tuners are terribly important if TiVo makes multiple boxes interact seamlessly. If you could daisy-chain multiple TiVo's so they act like one multi-tuner TiVo, then it would keep the boxes affordable for the masses while giving the power-users multiple tuners. I think that keeping the per-box cost low should be an important goal.

-Mike


Posted by: feldon23

quote:
jsmeeker said:
Why would it it have to be DirecTV combo only? What kind of HDTV programming can I get on DirecTV? HBO and HDnet? That's it, right? Or can I get all CBS shows that they broadcast in HDTV? What about other broadcast networks??

I can't get DirecTV, so a standalone unit that can record OTA broadcasts would needed. I would prefer a direct record, but if it needed to take a signal from an STB, then that would be fine, I suppose.


No satellite service will EVER have local channels in High Definition.

But a standalone TiVo is undesireable for me and for a LOT of people. I love DirecTV and would simply like to add HDTV functionality. Even if cable carried every HDTV channel possible, I'd still stick with DirecTV and an antenna for the local HDTV channels.

I would be VERY happy here in Houston to get a DirecTiVoHD that records DirecTV including HBO HD, Showtime HD, and HDNet HD as well as the 6 local HDTV channels we can get by putting up rabbit ears. No encoder chip needed. Everything would just write to the hard drive, keeping the costs low. Certainly the technology exists to do this today.

But when you start talking about standalone and cable, you run into the QAM256 roadblock. HDTV channels on digital cable are encrypted in a nonstandard format which is not an HDTV standard. As a result, a standalone/cable HDTiVo would have to take the digital signal, real-time encode it from the analog outputs of the cable box, and then store it on the hard drive. An HDTV signal encoded on $100,000 worth of equipment takes about 19Mbps.

There are, in my opinion, 3 viable TiVo products regarding HDTV:


I don't think any kind of standalone TiVo that records HDTV is viable.


Posted by: feldon23

quote:
TiVoPony said:
What if you had to choose...Dual HD sat streams or a single HD sat stream and ATSC OTA?


Dual HD sat streams means I cannot record ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, WB, UPN in High Def and Fox in Digital (Fox is anti-HDTV). No thanks.

DirecTV and Dish, even if they were combined, would not have enough bandwidth to carry unadultered (full-bandwidth 19Mbps) local channels in High Def for the same markets they carry now. There simply are not enough Ku band frequencies. It's a physics problem!

OTA HD will always be necessary.

It's hard after all the years of cable rallying against the dishes saying "but you need an antenna to get your local channels with a fuzzy picture, we provide them with one box" and then the dishes finally won the right to carry local channels. Now we have to go back and tell everyone "Ok, I know we went to all this hassle to get local channels on the dish, but now we're going back to antenna for digital/HDTV". Everyone starts whining and crying and saying it doesn't make any sense.

The key here is to use it and then make a judgement. The fact is, analog channels over rabbit ears sucks. The picture is snowy and has interference, it does not integrate into Dish/DirecTV boxes very well, etc.

In contrast, all DirecTV and Dish Network HDTV boxes sold today integrate OTA digital/HD very well and the picture can't be snowy because it's digital. (I can't speak for signal dropouts and other digital problems which would be seen on the cable feed too!)

quote:
And is an ATSC OTA box something you'd just walk right by?


An ATSC OTA HD box might appeal to some, but as the number of HDTV cable/sat channels grows to 7 next year (HDNet, HDNet Movies, HDNet Sports, ESPN HD, Discovery HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD), that's a lot of channels we won't be able to timeshift!

It would be going from the hybrid situation we have now (watch HDTV channels live, timeshift everything else with Dolby Digital and 2 tuners (SD or HD) since it's a DirecTV box!!) to another hybrid situation (timeshift some HDTV channels, watch everything else live, and no Dolby Digital or dual tuners (SD or HD) since it's not a DirecTV box!).

Look at how many people get hysterical because a TiVo can't record 2 things at once. Then look at the sales, albiet meager, of the UltimateTV. Every one of those sales happened because people want to record 2 shows simultaneously. Now you're considering the possibility of a $800 box that can't or makes people choose. This is the first TV broadcast season with all 3 networks making a real effort to offer HD. Imagine next year when there are frequently 2+ shows on at the same time that you wish you could record in High Def.


Honestly, my main motivation to record HDTV is The West Wing and the three Law & Order shows. Until they are in HD, I'm not buying. I just look at my HDTV Gallery and wait.

A strange end to a lengthy rant. :)


Posted by: jsmeeker

I'm not talking about standalone and cable. Just stand alone and OTA using and old-fashioned antenna.

I don't understand why people say they don't care about recording OTA HDTV broadcasts. I mean, this is where the bulk of the HD program I want to watch are or would be broadcast.


Posted by: feldon23

Jeff,

Assuming this box does not come out until fall of 2003, what are you going to tell customers?

Sales Rep: "It records ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, WB, and UPN in high definition and Fox in digital."

Customer: "And ESPN too, right? I've seen ads for that! There's a ton of football I want to watch in High Def. And HBO, Showtime, and HDNet Movies too, right?"

Sales Rep: "Well no."

End of sale.


Posted by: jsmeeker

Actually, I read through this thread an little more carefully. I got confused about all this talk about not having this tuner and that tuner, thinking people were suggesting that this box should not be able to record OTA from local NBC,CBS, FOX, ABC, etc. Stations. But then I saw this comment in one of your posts...

quote:

I would be VERY happy here in Houston to get a DirecTiVoHD that records DirecTV including HBO HD, Showtime HD, and HDNet HD as well as the 6 local HDTV channels we can get by putting up rabbit ears. No encoder chip needed. Everything would just write to the hard drive, keeping the costs low. Certainly the technology exists to do this today.


Now *this* would be awesome. I guess its just that everytine someone says combo box or HD DirecTiVo box, I think of a box like the *current* DirecTiVo. A box that can only record what comes of the dish. The box you suggest does *not* fit that mold. And, IMHO, that's great.

Now, let me ask you this, Would your proposed box work *without* a dish? Could I use it to record OTA only until I was able to get a HD DirecTV satellite antenna system? Or am I still SOL?


Posted by: Stephen Tu

OK, my 2 cents:

Outputs: analog HD component video, downconverted NTSC S-video/RCA.
Toslink & coax digital audio. HDMI / DVI/HDCP for display connection AND IEEE1394/5c for dumping to D-VHS as allowed by the protocol.
Prefer all outputs active simultaneously if possible.

Inputs: total agreement with feldon23 with the 3 viable HD-Tivo products he postulates.


Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker

Now *this* would be awesome. I guess its just that everytine someone says combo box or HD DirecTiVo box, I think of a box like the *current* DirecTiVo. A box that can only record what comes of the dish. The box you suggest does *not* fit that mold. And, IMHO, that's great.



There is some confusion on all this, especially when it comes to ATSC OTA not needing a decoder chip

quote:
Now, let me ask you this, Would your proposed box work *without* a dish? Could I use it to record OTA only until I was able to get a HD DirecTV satellite antenna system? Or am I still SOL?


That is the beauty of it -- if TiVo where to make a until that had one DirecTV tuner, and one ATSC OTA tuner -- than everyone can use it. One box fits all.

DirecTV people get two tuners, plus the ability to record OTA HD as one of the tuners
People without DirecTV could still use the box and utilize the OTA ATSC tuner, and ignore the DirecTV tuner.
You still wouldn't be able to record NTSC content, but the cost of the box should be pretty reasonable, considering.


Posted by: jsmeeker

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak


That is the beauty of it -- if TiVo where to make a until that had one DirecTV tuner, and one ATSC OTA tuner -- than everyone can use it. One box fits all.

DirecTV people get two tuners, plus the ability to record OTA HD as one of the tuners
People without DirecTV could still use the box and utilize the OTA ATSC tuner, and ignore the DirecTV tuner.
You still wouldn't be able to record NTSC content, but the cost of the box should be pretty reasonable, considering.


Well, my concern was the delivery of the guide data. If it only came over the dish off of the satelite, then it would not work for me. The issue of encoder or no encoder doesn't matter to me, just as long as it records OTA digital TV signals. If it doesn't do NTSC, fine. It's not like I'm throwing my Sony SVR-2000 out the window.


Posted by: feldon23

quote:
jsmeeker said:
Now *this* would be awesome. I guess its just that everytine someone says combo box or HD DirecTiVo box, I think of a box like the *current* DirecTiVo. A box that can only record what comes of the dish. The box you suggest does *not* fit that mold. And, IMHO, that's great.

I'm talking about a fully integrated combo box that gets channels from DirecTV (SD or HD) and 8VSB (HD) from an antenna. For all intents and purposes, you would be able to flip through channels 2 through 999 and it would be a unified experience. The only way you'd know either the dish is out or the antenna is out is if the channels go offline.

quote:
Now, let me ask you this, Would your proposed box work *without* a dish? Could I use it to record OTA only until I was able to get a HD DirecTV satellite antenna system? Or am I still SOL?

I would use the behavior of current DirecTV/HD/OTA boxes as a guide.

quote:
Well, my concern was the delivery of the guide data. If it only came over the dish off of the satelite, then it would not work for me.

OTA HD channels would have guide data downloads. TiVo could put this guide data into the 3-times-a-week Discovery broadcasts.


Posted by: old7

After reading some of the responses one struck me as something many are missing.

quote:
Mike Farrington- I don't think dual tuners are terribly important if TiVo makes multiple boxes interact seamlessly. If you could daisy-chain multiple TiVo's so they act like one multi-tuner TiVo


If two TiVos could interact seamlessly then a STB that only recorded OTA integrated with a SA would be great for many people. While a STB that recorded DirecTv HD and OTA, could be intergrated with a DirecTivo and handle another group. A third STB that worked for cable bound HD and OTA would satisfy most everyone.

Just a thought I would through out. It seems that many around here are predicting this interactive feature, why not include it with the list.

I don't think that one HD TiVo will satisfy everyone, but three may come close...

Old7


Posted by: dr_mal

My minimum requirements:

Inputs:
DirecTV tuner(s)
OTA ATSC tuner

Output:
1080i component RCA
NTSC S-Video and composite RCA
Optical digital audio
L/R RCA audio

I/O:
USB 2.0 (with software support for USB->ethernet adapters)

10 hours of HD capacity works fine for me -- hard drive capacity must be (unsupported) upgradable. I'm holding out hope that Denver will have HDTV sometime in the next couple of decades. When that happens, I'll want more capacity.


Posted by: ehopper

I agree with the idea of a box that does Directv and OTA. I'm sure the Directv people would like it to be Directv only, but, until and unless they can transmit the network signals in true HD, then that isn't feasible. Look at it like the RCA DTC-100 receiver. Does HDTV and OTA.

But, quite frankly, I am a little disturbed that Tivo is doing market research in September (almost October), 2002.

I've been hoping, that, despite the silence, Tivo had a plan in place, and they were just being coy. If they are asking these sorts of questions now, we're looking at a product in the stores in 2004. And maybe not Q1 2004, either. That's a loooonngg time from now.


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by ehopper
I agree with the idea of a box that does Directv and OTA. I'm sure the Directv people would like it to be Directv only


Actually, something that did OTA DTV but not cable/NTSC should not be a problem with DirecTv.

quote:
But, quite frankly, I am a little disturbed that Tivo is doing market research in September (almost October), 2002.


TiVo has already demonstrated an HDTiVo. None of this is radically new technology, just integrating things they already have. Take a current DirecTiVo double its processor speed and replace one of its DirecTv tuners with an 8VSB tuner and you have 95% of an HDDirecTiVo. If DirecTv and TiVo decide that it is a priority, I believe that they could have a box ready to sell by fall 2003. If TiVo decides that it is a priority but DirecTv does not, then we could see an OTA only box in that time frame.

In any event, I am not convinced that there is enough of a market for TiVo to invest the engineering resources necessary to build this product. I would be happy to buy it, but if it weakens TiVo's drive to profitability, I would rather they not waste their resources.

/carmi


Posted by: ehopper

quote:
Originally posted by majortom


Actually, something that did OTA DTV but not cable/NTSC should not be a problem with DirecTv.



TiVo has already demonstrated an HDTiVo. None of this is radically new technology, just integrating things they already have. Take a current DirecTiVo double its processor speed and replace one of its DirecTv tuners with an 8VSB tuner and you have 95% of an HDDirecTiVo. If DirecTv and TiVo decide that it is a priority, I believe that they could have a box ready to sell by fall. If TiVo decides that it is a priority but DirecTv does not, then we could see an OTA only box in that time frame.

In any event, I am not convinced that there is enough of a market for TiVo to invest the engineering resources necessary to build this product. I would be happy to buy it, but if it weakens TiVo's drive to profitability, I would rather they not waste their resources.

/carmi


Well, I see that you are continuing to selectively edit my posts to make yours look better. This is twice now.

The rest of what I said was:

quote:

I agree with the idea of a box that does Directv and OTA. I'm sure the Directv people would like it to be Directv only

, but, until and unless they can transmit the network signals in true HD, then that isn't feasible. Look at it like the RCA DTC-100 receiver. Does HDTV and OTA.


I am concerned, IN GENERAL, about the whole issue of recording of HDTV. As it stands right now, there is NO WAY, available to the general public, to record HBO, SHOWTIME or HDNet. What concerns me, is how much of this is market forces (as you suggest) and how much of this MPAA meddling.


Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by ehopper

But, quite frankly, I am a little disturbed that Tivo is doing market research in September (almost October), 2002.


And I am concerned that you think my suggesting a discussion topic is "market research".

It's simpler than that. I was just rather tired of the "HD is coming", "no it's not!", "yes it is!" death spiral. ;)

I'm more interested in reading about what a product should include, and how you would use it. What do you really value? That's a topic worth reading.

Just think of it as a little bit of Linda Richmond. We'll have some cawfee. We'll tawk. I'll give you a topic... :D

Pony


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by ehopper
Well, I see that you are continuing to selectively edit my posts to make yours look better. This is twice now.


I disagreed with part of what you said and that was the part I quoted. As it turns out, I also disagree with the part I did not quote as I do not think that they would care even the incredibly unlikely case that they are able to carry local-into-local HD for every market. DirecTv does not want a box that can be used for cable, that is their concern. OTA HD is not their competition - cable is.

quote:
I am concerned, IN GENERAL, about the whole issue of recording of HDTV. As it stands right now, there is NO WAY, available to the general public, to record HBO, SHOWTIME or HDNet. What concerns me, is how much of this is market forces (as you suggest) and how much of this MPAA meddling.


Do you believe that a $1,500 to $2,000 is something "available to the general public"? I do not consider any recorder that costs over $1,000 to be something that is for the general public. While some in Hollywood oppose allowing people to archive HD, most of copy protection schemes proposed do not care about PVRs - most say that copy never does not apply to them.

/carmi


Posted by: ahintz

well, it seems to me like the ball is starting to roll on recording HD. It seems like almost every week I'm reading about another announcement of a HD recorder - either DVHS or PVR or even HD-DVD. The minimum I need to make me plunk down the American Express is as follows:


Now, if you want to add DVI - fine. Analog audio/video - fine. I won't use them, but they would probably make the box more complete. Mainly I want to have my current experience with a DirecTiVo where I can timeshift network and DirecTV programming brought into the HD world. Because of the realities of bandwidth, this will require dual ATSC tuners - but since every other DirecTV receiver includes an ATSC tuner, I see no reasons why this would be any different. If TiVo can get that available either online or at Best Buy, I'll bite.

--Andrew


Posted by: Dajad

It surprises me how the DirecTV folks always dominate this conversation when they constitute only about 10% of TiVo's ultimate market (though admittedly about 40% of TiVo's current market).

Yes, TiVo needs two primary HDTiVo box types ... one that works with DirecTV and/or Dish (some day) and one that works with cable systems. Sorry jsmeeker, you are in the minority ... few people rely solely on OTA these days ... especially for high end content packages.

To me supporting OTA, while nice if TiVo can afford it, is a distant third in importance (but I've argued that one often enough in other threads to get into it now).

I'll likely never have a satellite system because I move way too often to get into that hassle of finding apartments that face South.

I want a seamless experience that works with my cable provider (which means a system that will work with either Motorola or SCi-Atl boxes).

This baby MUST support the future copy protection standards because I don't want my content downrezzed. It must support all the major HDTV standards (of course).

I DO NOT believe that putting a premium on dual recording capability is important in the cable context. As suggested elsewhere, for the people who want that, they can buy another TiVo (presuming TiVo comes through with its long anticipated networked-TiVo functionality). There is no use charging EVERYONE mega bucks for a feature that most people don't need (or at least don't want to pay double to get). I live fine with my single recording TiVo. For the few shows that are unresolvable conflicts I just either watch one live or record it on my VCR. With cable networks showing the same shows many times and with the networks trend of repurpusing content, bona-fide real conflicts rarely occur in my TV watching experience.

I want at least 10 hours of HDTV storage capacity with, live everyone else, the ability to upgrade my box with bigger drives (unsupported) when that makes sense.

Feldon, I still disagree with you on your ABSOLUTE statement that sat will NEVER carry local HDTV channels.

1. It's very possible that they will carry local signals just in the major markets and NOT run up against the barrier of phsysics.

2. It's possible that DirecTV and/or Dish could configure local network HDTV signals such that during the broadcast the NATIONAL network feed is fed into ALL satellite boxes with the local commercials and local content interspersed within the national feed sent down either in HD or in standard interstially or on a second channel and cached on a TiVo for display within the commercial segments with all other non-network local programming NOT shown in HDTV.

3. It's very possible that the regulatory structure may change that may, one day, allow people not served by locals to take up the NATIONAL network feed.

4. Technological advances could occur that you are not anticipating.

Saying it will NEVER happen to me is short sited. I believe it WILL happen and MUST happen. If the satco's loose out to cable owing to the phsics limitation, in the interest of maintaining a healthy competitive market the rules will be changed to allow satellites to do what is necessary to make it happen.

...Dale


Posted by: DLiquid

I am interested in a DirecTV/OTA HD TiVo. Something basically like the Samsung SIR-TS160 or Zenith HD-SAT520 STB, with added TiVo functionality, but with no NTSC tuner/encoder.

- 20-30 hours HD recording capacity
- Hard drive upgradeability (UNsupported)
- OTA ATSC recording (1 tuner)
- No OTA/cable NTSC support (no MPEG encoder needed)
- DirecTV HD and SD recording (1-2 tuners)
- Record two programs simultaneously
- Integrated OTA/DirecTV guide like current HD STBs have
- DVI HDCP output, component output, S-Video output, RCA video output, RF output.

I might be interested in a OTA-only HD TiVo if that came out sooner, especially if DirecTV is opposed to the idea of an HD PVR, but a DirecTV/OTA HD TiVo is what I'm really waiting for.

Oh, one last one:

- Some indication from TiVo as to when such a product may be released, so that I have something to base my upcoming STB purchasing plans on. ;)


Posted by: DLiquid

mattnboise, from the post that started this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by J4yDubs
What would be your minimum requirement for an HDTiVo? There's no need to discuss whether or not TiVo should even have an HDTiVo - that's not the point of this thread.
Please, no one argue with mattnboise, as this will pollute this thread with arguments already contained in countless other threads. Let's keep this thread on topic. That is, list your requirements for an HD TiVo.


Posted by: jeffcarp

The arguments in this thread that an HDirecTivo would be "$1200" or more and wouldn't appeal to the mainstream consumer is ridiculous. When I paid $400 for TIVo 2 years ago, the mainstream consumer didn't even know what a TIVo was. If you apply that same logic then no one should sell a Plasma TV until they are $800. A 56" widescreen TV shouldn't be sold until they cost $500. Give me a break. Anything related to HDTV will be high-end and will be a niche market for the next 3 years at least. Is that a reason for Tivo to let Sony, JVC and Echostar beat them to market with something and lose long time customers?


Posted by: miimura

How's this for a product?

Basic HD box has OTA HD input with dual ATSC tuners and all outputs and networking built in. One additional input module slot is provided.

Base Box:
Inputs: OTA Antenna RF in
Outputs: HD Component, DVI/HDCP, Toslink, Analog Stereo, S-Video, Composite Video
Network: Firewire, 100BaseTX

Optional Input Modules:
The module concept is probably not what Tivo wants to do, but the alternative is worse. In order to have a complete product without modules they would either have to make a box that has inputs for all 3 major providers, make a dedicated box for each provider, or be dependent on firewire STBs to feed it HD digital content. We all know that's not going to happen any time soon. Modules also allows them to get to market sooner with the basic box and one or two of the modules. The cable TV module is probably the trickiest to get to work with all systems, but then again, worst case you could have an ATT Broadband module, a COX module, etc.

I think boxes should cooperate on the network to resolve schedule conflicts and increase total disk space available with unified Now Playing. Without this feature you would have to add all the inputs and the encoder that the current NTSC Tivo has. Networked cooperation would also allow customers with more than one HD provider to record and view programs on any set in the house. Customer capacity increase is mandatory whether by firewire attached disk or current (un)supported HDD add/replace. All HD boxes should be able to play content from other HD boxes regardless of input module as well as from networked Series 1 TurboNet and Series 2 Ethernetted boxes. HD boxes should be able to record 2 HD streams simultaneously. Although boxes with one of the input modules would actually have 4 tuners, recording 2 simultaneous programs is sufficient.

Firewire should support live display with OSD and dump to D-VHS / HD-DVD-R / other future recording format. Havi would be nice, but AVC control may be sufficient. Firewire networking between Tivo units would also be nice in addition to the 100BaseTX.

Selectable component video format should also be provided. Mechanical switch on the back for 1080i/720p/480p stinks. Put 1080i/720p selection on a menu and provide a remote button for immediately switching to 480p with zoom modes. Native passthru (1080i/720p depending on program recieved) doesn't really make sense to me, but you could put that option on a menu too since some people seem to want that feature. Simultaneous output to S-Video and Composite Video is also very desirable.

- Mike


Posted by: majortom

Reasonable minimum requirements:

2 different boxes:

Stand alone box:

2 OTA ATSC tuners with 3 streams (two being recorded with one being replayed).

2 - 160 GB drives striped (gives you 30 hours or so of HD in a configuration that is fast enough to handle 3 streams). If enough throughput can be guaranteed to support 3 streams with a single drive or two drives in a non-RAID configuration that would be acceptable.

1394/DTCP for input from a STB that supports that.

USB 2.0 or 100baseTX ethernet.

Component out.

S-video/composite out.

DVI/HDCP/HDMI out.


Box 2:

Same as above but 2 HD-capable DirecTv tuners instead of OTA tuners.

This keeps both boxes in a reasonable price range, possibly even under $1,000. It also provides maximum flexibility for both TiVo and its customers. Those with no local OTA HD would not have to pay extra for a much harder to build 4 tuner box, while those that do not get DirecTv would not have to pay for 2 DirecTv tuners that they would not use.

In an ideal world, these boxes could cooperate for scheduling and using 1394/DTCP could provide a single seamless experience to a user.

Why not an Echostar or Cable system? Simply put, because TiVo would need a partner that was interested and ready to deploy such a product. Echostar has clearly demonstrated that they are only interested in producing hard disk-based VCR replacements. Currently AT&T (TiVo's only Cable partner to date) has no HD deployment and has not even stepped forward to build an integrated Digital Cable TiVo.

Given that any box that can receive DirecTv or Echostar programming, needs to be licensed it is very unlikely that either provider would allow a box that supports modular receiver cards that could be swapped from one provider to another.

/carmi


Posted by: feldon23

I agree with DLiquid. mattnboise has nothing positive to contribute to this thread. This thread is not about whether an HDTiVo is viable. We already have a dozen other topics for that. This thread is about WHEN TiVo introduces such a box, what are the MINIMUM components it should have?


Posted by: Backhack

TiVopony and all forward thinkers ;)

A HDTV box would be a high end machine for thaose technically capable people. How about 2 changable slots/drawers that you could choose your own configuration. Want a HDDTV and a OTA no problem 2 OTA no prob, etc Since the outputs would be the same its the inputs/decoder that would be different. :D


Posted by: JTAnderson

Culled from another thread, my minimal requirements...

I would guess that for me to jump, it would have to be possible (but not necessarily supported) to add additional/larger hard drives. I'm sure whatever the base HDTiVo has won't be enough. Beyond that...

8VSB only. Record one stream. <$1000. Maybe, but probably not.

8VSB + DirecTV (HD & SD). Record one stream. <$1000. Probably.

8VSB only. Record two streams. <$1000. Probably.

8VSB + DirecTV. Record two streams. <$1200. How high did you say you wanted me to jump?!

Note that I consider analog OTA unnecessary, to the point of being undesirable. It's a cost that I don't want to pay.

I noticed that several of the previous posters wished for the ability to record two streams of DirecTV, but would settle for one 8VSB tuner. I'd reverse this. I think it is more important to be able to record two OTA streams at once than two DirecTV streams. Almost everything currently available on DirecTV is repeated often enough during a week that conflicts are not a problem. Most things on OTA (network programs) are only available once (until the reruns roll around).

A device that records from a 1394 output of an STB also holds some interest for me. This might be a way to achieve the modular approach some are suggesting. But I suspect that the setup that I really want would turn out to be quite a bit more expensive if I had to buy 1394 capable STBs to feed it.

I think the idea of modular plug-in tuners probably has a lot to be said for it, but I don't consider it a minimal requirement.


Posted by: FrogMan

<Copying my reply from one of the July threads into this one, with a bunch of updates>
What would it take for me to buy an HDTivo?

MUST HAVES <stack ranked>:
1. Cable, DirecTV, or DishNetwork receiver integrated unit. Right now DishNetwork seems to have much better HD content available at the moment, but cable is announcing plans that, if they actually happen, would rock. I personally am not interested in OTA or SA models for various reasons, esp. once ATT Broadband will ship my locals to me in HD.
2. Ability to record at least 1 non-HD signal simultaneously with 1 HD signal.
3. Output 1080i over component video cables or D-Sub 15 for HD recorded signal. If the box can only output recorded HDTV downrezzed, it's not of any interest to me.
4. Whatever size drive Tivo thinks will help it sell best, providing upgrading is possible, even if absolutely unsupported. 10 hour HD drive or whatnot. If it's less than 20 hours HD recording I will very quickly replace the drives with either a pair of 120GB IDE drives or even larger Serial-ATA drives, but so long as those interested can upgrade the drives via even unsupported means, I would buy a 10 hour unit.

Price that at $999 (or less) and I'll be punching my credit card into tivo.com or whatever retailer lets me preorder it earliest faster than you can say, "Is that an HDTivo you've just ordered, or are you just happy to see me." :D

LIKES (bells & whistles that should not be included if it holds up my HDTivo by more than a week) <stack ranked>:
1. Ability to record two simultaneous non-HD signal when no HD signal is being recorded.
2. Outputting non-HD (recorded or live) signal over component instead of the default S-Video cable.
3. Ability to record one HD stream while watching a recorded HD stream.
4. Ability to record two HD streams simultaneously.
5. Serial-ATA support.
6. USB 2.0 support.
7. Built-in Ethernet (100Mb or 10Mb) or built-in WiFi (802.11a or 802.11b).
8. 720P support.
9. DVI outputs.

Just my 2 cents worth...for my $1,000 worth, just build me an HDTivo!

<<EDIT>>
I saw on the July thread Feldon23 replying:

<Dish Network has the Discovery HD channel.
DirecTV has HDNet.

I don't think that's an advantage in Dish's favor.>
To which I'd never replied. DirecTV has, according to their website, HDNet, HBO, and Showtime. DishNetwork has, according to the email I received from them (as the DishNetwork website doesn't seem to have a lot of info on it) DiscoveryHD, HBO, Showtime, some PPV, and a *national* HD CBS feed, which is only available to those who qualify. I'm guessing the qualification is based on ability to pick up a local affiliate, but at any rate I've called in and verified I *do* qualify for that feed. HDNet vs. DiscoveryHD aside (my wife, who limits my AV budget more than I'd like, would definitely vote DiscoveryHD), I'd call the CBS feed and PPV (even if only a few hours a day) an edge for Dish Network.
<</EDIT>>


Posted by: tbh999

OK, I apologize in advance for my response, I have not read the entire thread so I'm probably going to repeat something someone else has already said, so...

HDTivo wish list

A) Minimum
Because I use DirecTV I would be happy with a DirecTV only HDTivo unit.
10 hours of HDTV would be a good starting point, especially if I could add additional HD space via the USB 2.0 port.

B) Better Yet
Above plus HDTV OTA tuner

C) Best of Both Worlds
A & B above plus OTA analog tuner. Well, to be honest I really don't care if an HDTivo supported analog OTA, if I can't get it OTA digital then I could get it with DirecTV.


Posted by: PVR

Digeo/Moxi will likely have a cable TV solution within a year, so do you really want to compete with them for cable?

Dish network has announced they will have something with their service.

Given the DTV history it sounds like TiVo and/or UltimateTV are the most likely to do a DTV HD PVR.
(anyone know what UltimateTV is planning?)

I would want at least one OTA and one DTV tuner... Hopefully more. Can it record two or more HD streams at once?

120gb HD minimum.
RGB/VGA outputs?
IEEE1394 outputs?

All the usual TiVo stuff.... Pause Live TV. Watch one channel while recording another.

If it has the ability to record SD and HD the it would be nice to have some sort of "HD perference" options in the Wishlists so one could say something like "record all HD movies but don't record all SD movies".


Posted by: feldon23

quote:
FrogMan said:
1. Cable, DirecTV, or DishNetwork receiver integrated unit. Right now DishNetwork seems to have much better HD content available at the moment, but cable is announcing plans that, if they actually happen, would rock. I personally am not interested in OTA or SA models for various reasons, esp. once ATT Broadband will ship my locals to me in HD.

I know we're brainstorming and we're not supposed to shoot down anyone's idea, but

#1 Dish makes their own PVRs. They don't license.
#2 The only HDTV channels Dish has that DirecTV does not are Discovery HD and CBS HD New York. Most people cannot qualify for the CBS channel, and as for Discovery HD, they add 4-5 hours a week of programming and loop the rest. This is starting to look like a wise bandwidth move on DirecTV's part.


Posted by: Dajad

A few thoughts on others' posts:

1. TiVo is NEVER going to provide us with a way to digitally record anything on external media ... it may be a wish but it AIN'T gonna happen. TiVo needs to remain on friendly terms with the content providers.

2. No, TiVo will NOT have to build specific HDTV versions for EACH cable provider. Congress has mandated that ALL cable companies come up with a plug-and-play digital set top standard ... that they have done ... the cablelabs standard. Cable could build to this BUT it appears that Congress may make a change to this and mandate that all cableco's be interoperable with plug-and-play sets and consumer point of purchase set tops such as TiVo. Whichever of these wins the day (and it is likely that this will be resolved within the next year) is what TiVo needs to build to ... no need to depend on, rely on or partner with the cableco's to make this happen in the long run. In the short run TiVo may want to do this but it certainly isn't going to be a long term issue. See this article for details:


Click here see recent article.

Note this quote towards the end of this piece:

"They praised a provision to require cable systems to
incorporate technology allowing "plug-and-play" sets to work
with cable without set-top converter boxes."

3. It still boggles my mind how many of you want OTA support (but again, this thread is seemingly dominated by the DirecTV users). Yes, that's the primary place for HDTV today ... but once HDTV is broadcast regularly over cable, nobody with cable will give a hoot about OTA capability - and that's 70+% of TiVo's end market. Perhaps adding OTA into a DirecTiVo model makes sense since it will be awhile before DirecTV will carry local broadcasts (as per Feldon's point and my reply) but I see widespread cable adoption of HDTV broadcasts in the next couple years. After that, no cable user's going to want to be fussing with bunny ears etc. and they are certainly not going to want to pay extra for a receiver that will never be used again. I sure don't. I want an HDTiVo that will record whatever HDTV is pumped through my cable sytsem. Until then I'm not going to bother even watching or trying to receive HDTV OTA ... too much of a hassle for me even if its sitting there waiting for the grabbing.

4. I think it goes without saying that an HDTiVo will have the same basic features as today's TiVos - doesn't it TiVoPony?


...Dale


Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad

3. It still boggles my mind how many of you want OTA support (but again, this thread is seemingly dominated by the DirecTV users). Yes, that's the primary place for HDTV today ... but once HDTV is broadcast regularly over cable, nobody with cable will give a hoot about OTA capability - and that's 70+% of TiVo's end market. Perhaps adding OTA into a DirecTiVo model makes sense since it will be awhile before DirecTV will carry local broadcasts (as per Feldon's point and my reply) but I see widespread cable adoption of HDTV broadcasts in the next couple years. After that, no cable user's going to want to be fussing with bunny ears etc. and they are certainly not going to want to pay extra for a receiver that will never be used again. I sure don't. I want an HDTiVo that will record whatever HDTV is pumped through my cable sytsem. Until then I'm not going to bother even watching or trying to receive HDTV OTA ... too much of a hassle for me even if its sitting there waiting for the grabbing.


Couple of counterpoints:

1) While TiVo will not reveal actual numbes, most analyst belive that the DTiVo's account for 40-50% of all TiVo units. That is a huge consituent of TiVo adopters that will be ignored if a HDTivo does not do ATSC OTA

2) Yes, cable has a huge market, but a lot of those people are TiVo'ing content from basic, non-digital tiers, or TiVoing OTA. All cable companies will have to put their HDTV offerings on a digital-tier, which means more money and more cost, just for basic HDTV networks. Cable companies *WILL NOT* offer HDTV networks on their 'lifeline' or 'basic' packages.

What that means to most cost-consious people is that they will have to spend ~$50 a month to get to a point where they can look at HDTV locals. My guess is that most, given the option and information, will go with the rabit ears when the find out that it is an all or nothing propsition with digital reception(per feldon's post), instead of spending the money.

I think you completley discount the need for ATSC OTA, especialy for people who live in cable areas where the cable company has no indication of an HDTV strategy.


Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad

2. It's possible that DirecTV and/or Dish could configure local network HDTV signals such that during the broadcast the NATIONAL network feed is fed into ALL satellite boxes with the local commercials and local content interspersed within the national feed sent down either in HD or in standard interstially or on a second channel and cached on a TiVo for display within the commercial segments with all other non-network local programming NOT shown in HDTV.


While difficult and technically possible, local broadcasters will not go for it because they will lose the ability to add crawls, weather-alerts, etc to their feeds.

Also, if this was the case, D* and E* would have tried to push this route with normal LIL to save bandwidth -- I don't think HDTV gives them anymore leverage to do so.


Posted by: J4yDubs

quote:
Originally posted by tbh999
OK, I apologize in advance for my response, I have not read the entire thread so I'm probably going to repeat something someone else has already said, so...


Repeats are fine and actually encouraged. It's the only way to measure demand.

I left out cost in my minimum requirements. I paid $400 for my S2-60. So I guess I'd pay $800-$1000 for an HDTiVo.

Got into another argument with the wife. She wanted to watch Alias in HDTV and I wanted to watch Sunday Night Football (SDTV) on the big screen. I lost this time and had to watch on one of the 32" TV's. This is getting critical. I'm going to blame TiVo for our breakup if they don't come out with an HDTiVo soon. ;)

John


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
1. TiVo is NEVER going to provide us with a way to digitally record anything on external media ... it may be a wish but it AIN'T gonna happen. TiVo needs to remain on friendly terms with the content providers.


Actually, there are several ways that TiVo would be able to provide external recording options without upsetting anyone. First, they could support external Firewire or USB2.0 disk drives with encrypted content that will only play on the box it was recorded on (or maybe others in the household). Second, if they support Firewire/DTCP, they can support any DTCP compliant recording device and allow content providers to decide record recording rights.

quote:
2. No, TiVo will NOT have to build specific HDTV versions for EACH cable provider. Congress has mandated that ALL cable companies come up with a plug-and-play digital set top standard ... that they have done ... the cablelabs standard.
...

In the short run TiVo may want to do this but it certainly isn't going to be a long term issue.


We are all talking about a box that TiVo would deploy within 12-18 months. At this moment, there is not a single OpenCable compliant cable company (as far as I know), and given that CableLabs only issued its HD OCAP spec on 29-Aug-2002, it seems unlikely that there will be deployments any time soon. Second, this is more than a technical issue. Even if there are OCAP systems, but providers deploy non-TiVo DVR gear (e.g. an HD Explorer 8000), that they do not require people to purchase but instead will rent, TiVo (and all other box manufacturers) will have a hard time competing. People are not used to buying their cable boxes, and until that behavior changes, and there is wide deployment of OCAP hardware, it makes no sense for TiVo to try to build cable compliant boxes without a cable partner interested in deploying them.


quote:
3. It still boggles my mind how many of you want OTA support (but again, this thread is seemingly dominated by the DirecTV users). Yes, that's the primary place for HDTV today ... but once HDTV is broadcast regularly over cable, nobody with cable will give a hoot about OTA capability - and that's 70+% of TiVo's end market.
...
I want an HDTiVo that will record whatever HDTV is pumped through my cable sytsem. Until then I'm not going to bother even watching or trying to receive HDTV OTA


Given that only a small number of cable systems have begun to deploy HD and that AT&T Broadband (probably your cable company in you live in SF proper) - largest cable company in the country - has one HD deployment scheduled for late December or early January (Metro Chicago with no CBS and no ABC) and that we are talking about a box to be released in 12-18 months or so, OTA HD is the primary source of HD content.

By stating that you are not going to get HD until your cable company provides it to you are clearly not a candidate for this product. It is likely that it will be several years before AT&T Broadband provides HD to your market, and then, if they do it with a box that supports Firewire/DTCP, an HDTiVo OTA/Firewire box would work for you just fine, while those of us that have HD now (a majority of those contributing to this thread I think), will have a box while you are waiting.

/carmi


Posted by: todd_hd

My first post.. I'm not a current Tivo user. I bought a DirecTivo & lifetime subscription for my parents & their SDTV. But, without HD support it's not worthwhile for me. In the absence of an HD-Tivo, I am using a PC, with an HDTV PCI card hooked to my HDTV, with 200GB of disk for recording.

My requirements:
- HD recording capabilities for DirecTV. Two tuners would be VERY nice to have.
- OTA 8VSB recording. (analog not needed for me)
- Minimum of 120GB disk, preferably more, with expandability.
- Basic Tivo functionality for HD content, pause live tv, view one while recording another, etc.


Nice to haves:
- Ability to down-res HD content to save disk. e.g. convert to 480P
- Firewire in/ouput for archiving, and better integration with other HD gear.
- Ethernet port


Posted by: jeffcarp

todd_hd, What HDTV tuner card and what video card are you using? How fast of a processor are you using this on? Do you have to have a PC monitor connected to the PC or can you run the software using your TV screen as the monitor? I can handle integrated the PC nicely in my setup, but the need for a PC monitor is harder to do neatly.


Posted by: todd_hd

I responded via private message, rather than diverge from the main topic here.


Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by PVR
Digeo/Moxi will likely have a cable TV solution within a year, so do you really want to compete with them for cable?


Thank you, you made me smile today.

No, I don't think we've decided to abdicate the cable market to anyone, including to Dioxi/Migeo/Moxeo.

Back to the topic...

Pony


Posted by: kjnorman

quote:
Originally posted by miimura
How's this for a product?

Basic HD box has OTA HD input with dual ATSC tuners and all outputs and networking built in. One additional input module slot is provided.

Base Box:
Inputs: OTA Antenna RF in
Outputs: HD Component, DVI/HDCP, Toslink, Analog Stereo, S-Video, Composite Video
Network: Firewire, 100BaseTX

Optional Input Modules:
The module concept is probably not what Tivo wants to do, but the alternative is worse. In order to have a complete product without modules they would either have to make a box that has inputs for all 3 major providers, make a dedicated box for each provider, or be dependent on firewire STBs to feed it HD digital content. We all know that's not going to happen any time soon. Modules also allows them to get to market sooner with the basic box and one or two of the modules. The cable TV module is probably the trickiest to get to work with all systems, but then again, worst case you could have an ATT Broadband module, a COX module, etc.

- Mike


I agree very strongly with Mike. I believe the only sensible way for a product like this to work is to be flexible.

A base configuration of OTA ATSC, with component outs, firewire in/out and DVI out with the necessary CP protocols would be mandatory in my opinion. As would coaxial digital audio out. Personally I am not too worried about any OTA analog support - I already have a TiVo for that. Network capability to be able to talk to another HDTivo would also be desired.

The firewire in, would give the set some record capability from firewire STBs until the relavant modules were ready.

I have no comment on satelite requirements as I do not use it, but for cable, I believe that there may be a need for different modules for different cable systems - and I do not see this ending any time soon. For example, here in Milwaukee, for TWC we would still need an analog tuner and encoder for channels 2 to 99, and then have a digital tuner for all the rest. Dual tuners capable of analog and digital reception would be nice, but if not possible I would be satisfied with a single analog/digital cable tuner.

Having the module is also great, as I would allow me to switch from cable to sat, if I ever desired without throwing away the base record. All I would need to change is the tuner module for reception.

I would go for a minimum of 20 hours HDTV recording capability (hard drives get cheaper every day) with the option of upgrading the hard drive in the future.

I would love a built in HD DVD recorder as well for archiving content where the CP allows, but realise that is many years away. Perhaps a wishlist for Tivo 4?

Kerry


Posted by: JeffP

Here's my take:

- Having fought with my HD reception for a year, I think OTA HD will have limited appeal. Is my tivo going to control my antenna rotor too? :P

- With Philly sports monopolized by Comcast, I'm basically stuck with cable

- I do not have/will not get digital cable because of the hassles integrating a separate STB with TiVo, and because of the nasty banners & interface of the STB.

- I'm tempted by HD over digital cable (Comcast Sportsnet & ESPN HD....drool) but I won't get it until I can time shift it.

I'd pay up to $1000 for a digital cable (QAM, HD & SD) only TiVo. Ditch the analog tuner/encoder: I don't think there will be analog signals in 5 years anyway. With no encoders, two tuners should be as easy as with DTiVo, but that isn't a show stopper for me.

I would want/need component 1080i, digital sound out (coax or optical, I don't really care)

Jeff


Posted by: JoeFloyd

A HDTV Tivo will need the following.

1) Real time HD Component recording. This is the really hard one. If going to the trouble to build a HD video compression ASIC, why not go ahead a use a system like XVID instead of MPEG-4 or WMV or MPEG-2 for that matter. Of course there would need to be method of converting propritary compression codecs into MPEG-2 MP@HL for firewire transfer to a standard DVHS machine or STB with firewire inputs.

2) NTSC/PAL recording. No reason to throw away 50 years of material just yet.

3) Modular tuner section with 2 bays designed for future upgrades in modulation
a) ATSC/NTSC
b) Dish
c) Direct TV
d) Cable (QAM with some form of POD interface)

4) HD Component output. I personally could care less about DVI with HDCP, HDMI, or any other uncompressed digital output format at this point. The are only a few benefits to this scheme and lots of shortcomings.

5) Firewire output for tape dump

6) Upgradeable internal storage or allow firewire disks to be used as swappable storage

Of the above list, the most important to me are real time HD component encoding and ATSC transport stream capture. In my thinking, HD component is going to be the only way to ensure that all my current crap works together. Between 1394/DTCP, DVI with HDCP, HDMI with HDCP, Broadcast flag, Watermarking, and whatever else we might see come down the copy protection mania pike, the analog connectors are the only ones that actually might work between two different components.

Nothing I see is giving a warm and fuzzy feeling about cable or DirectTV including any form of recordable digital connector on the vast majority of STB. The recent hearings are a good example of how entrenched cable is with respect to delaying the deployment of any type of universal cable box. DirectTV seems to be paranoid about home recording or is being strongly encouraged to hold the line with respect to recording by the powers the be. Dish is the only company that seems to have an HDTV game plan that makes any kind of sense.

Even such, it's unreasonable to expect that a consumer will look at a HD Tivo and understand that it's impossible to use it with their crappy old cable system that doesn't have firewire enabled STB or use the universal cable standard with some type of POD interface. I make this a point because I just don't have faith that the recordable digital connectors will be as common as is necessary to make a HD Tivo a useful tool for timeshifting HD from a variety of programing sources that have vastly different ideas of how to implement consumer HDTV. Sure there is a huge push to plug the analog hole, but right now it's the only thing that keeps any of this stuff from being big giant paperweights. Until there is a workable recordable digital connector format that is 100% universal, there is no reason not to expect that analog HD is going anywhere anytime soon.


Posted by: ericlhyman

I would buy at least two HD Tivos immediately and possibly a third (I currently own 2 Directivos and 1 standalone). I want one standalone HD Tivo to connect to the Samsung SIR-T165 STB and Sony KV-40XBR800 that I have on order. I would also buy one or two HD DirecTivos. I would like to be able to upgrade the hard drive when the Maxtor 320 GB unit is available.

My big question is what is the big hold up? An HD Tivo is not that much more difficult to produce than a regular one, just with a bigger hard drive. If JVC and Echostar can do this, where is Tivo?


Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by JeffP
- Having fought with my HD reception for a year, I think OTA HD will have limited appeal. Is my tivo going to control my antenna rotor too? :P
Do HD STBs control antenna rotors? :P

I think what most people are asking for is for TiVo functionality to be added to your typical 2002 HD DirecTV/OTA STB. A decent HD receiver already tunes DirecTV and OTA very well and integrates the channels into one guide. Just slap some TiVo functionality in there (analog OTA support not needed, as others have said).

I'd expect to pay about $500 more than the current price of comparable STBs that lacked TiVo functionality. So about $1100-1300 would be fine with me.


Posted by: miimura

quote:
Originally posted by JoeFloyd
A HDTV Tivo will need the following.

1) Real time HD Component recording. This is the really hard one. If going to the trouble to build a HD video compression ASIC, why not go ahead a use a system like XVID instead of MPEG-4 or WMV or MPEG-2 for that matter. Of course there would need to be method of converting propritary compression codecs into MPEG-2 MP@HL for firewire transfer to a standard DVHS machine or STB with firewire inputs.

IMHO Analog HD component real time encode is totally unreasonable from technical and and political standpoints. Stream capture is the only viable way to deal with HD video at the consumer level for the forseeable future. If you want to make their job harder, ask for null stream compression or extraneous program stream removal. At least those two are practical and will save you some disk space. Transcoding some proprietary codec to MPEG2-TS in real time for firewire is also impractical today.

Speaking of which, DirecTV program program streams present the same kind of problem for a Firewire enabled box since they're not framed right and aren't MPEG2 transport stream compatible.

- Mike


Posted by: rttrek

Okay, after sifting through this long and growing thread, here are a few comments, and then my requirements.

quote:
Originally posted by majortom
TiVo has already demonstrated an HDTiVo...

... I believe that they could have a box ready to sell by fall.

I hate to mention it, but it's fall already. Perhaps you mean next fall?

quote:
Originally posted by ehopper
But, quite frankly, I am a little disturbed that Tivo is doing market research in September (almost October), 2002.

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony
And I am concerned that you think my suggesting a discussion topic is "market research".

It's simpler than that. I was just rather tired of the "HD is coming", "no it's not!", "yes it is!" death spiral.

I'm more interested in reading about what a product should include, and how you would use it. What do you really value? That's a topic worth reading.

Just think of it as a little bit of Linda Richmond. We'll have some cawfee. We'll tawk. I'll give you a topic...

Pony

__________________
TiVo Product Marketing

Well, Pony, it sure *looks* like market research from *our* perspective! Look at your signature!


Okay, here are my thoughts:

Minimum Required (and sufficient to get me to pay up to $599):

Highly Desired in order of preference (worth more $$$ from me, up to $999):

Okay/nice (won't pay extra $$$):

Don't include (I don't want to pay a red cent for the cost of adding these):

Finally, a new idea: Several of you have supported interchangeable input modules. How about interchangeable output modules? Instead of USB, FireWire & DVI outputs, add a slot or two which could support any one (or more) of these (have component video built-in). These would be much cheaper than plug-in tuners.

Similarly, provide module options for coax digital audio and stereo analog audio.

To save TiVo engineering resources, document the slot and let Jafa, 9th Tee and others provide modules.

I'd buy one of these immediately, and another one almost as quickly. The second one would allow me to also finally buy that big screen/plasma for the living room, since I've sworn not to until a time shifter is available.


Posted by: Dajad

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
1) While TiVo will not reveal actual numbes, most analyst belive that the DTiVo's account for 40-50% of all TiVo units. That is a huge consituent of TiVo adopters that will be ignored if a HDTivo does not do ATSC OTA


As per the August teleconference, which I just posted a transcript of a moment ago, the DTiVo percentage of total TiVo's is about 30% to date. But, I agree that this will increase when the Hughes Series II DirecTiVo starts shipping en masse in the next month or so. However, TiVo is still in the early adopter stage. As TiVo moves beyond early adopters to the mainstream I believe that the percentage of DirecTiVos will decrease as a percentage of the whole. But, I don't mean to imply that DirecTiVo owners are less deserving of HDTV attention from TiVo. I just thought that cable users were getting short-shrift in this conversation ... hence my point that DirecTV owners constitute a relatively smaller part of TiVo's potetial FUTURE market.

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
2) Yes, cable has a huge market, but a lot of those people are TiVo'ing content from basic, non-digital tiers, or TiVoing OTA. All cable companies will have to put their HDTV offerings on a digital-tier, which means more money and more cost, just for basic HDTV networks. Cable companies *WILL NOT* offer HDTV networks on their 'lifeline' or 'basic' packages.


Ultimately cable companies will NOT be placing their HDTV signals on their digital tiers (as opposed to an analogue tier) because there will not, in the longer term, be anything other than digital tiers. But let's be clear, it is not at all certain where cableco's will have to place the initial HDTV signals. I think it VERY likely that the FCC/Congress will mandate HDTV signals to be included in whatever "lower" tier the analogue equivelants now reside. Remember, the objective of Congress/the FCC is to eliminate the analogue network signal altogether. It appears (as of last week) that their will NOT be dual must-carriage obligations (but even that is not 100% clear yet). If there is NOT dual must carriage, when the analogue signals are shut off at each station the only remaining MUST carry signal will be the digital signal and this, necessarily, will HAVE to be contained on the lowest basic tier. For the next year or so we may very well see network HDTV signals relegated to upper tiers, but I think this will start to switch VERY quickly once the transition starts rolling - especially in major markets.


quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
What that means to most cost-consious people is that they will have to spend ~$50 a month to get to a point where they can look at HDTV locals. My guess is that most, given the option and information, will go with the rabit ears when the find out that it is an all or nothing propsition with digital reception(per feldon's post), instead of spending the money.


As per my prior point, this may be true for a year (perhaps two at max) but it won't be long before most, if not all, network HDTV signals will be part of the basic tier ... certainly once the transition is complete and, perhaps, the FCC/Congress will mandate all HDTV signals be carried in the basic package at no extra cost. We'll see how this shakes out, but my sense is that those who can't afford more than the basic tier will NOT be those early adopters investing in the high priced digital sets during the early period when HDTV signals are still up in the higher teirs.

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
I think you completley discount the need for ATSC OTA, especialy for people who live in cable areas where the cable company has no indication of an HDTV strategy.


Well, yes, I do. Because the lion's share of Tivo's prospective HDTV non-sat customers will not, as per my arguement, receive HDTV over the air. They will be cable users willing to pay for premium packages in the first couple years of the transition and then they will be all the first-tier type cable purchasers once HDTV is mandated to be carried in the lower tiers.

quote:
Originally posted by majortom
Actually, there are several ways that TiVo would be able to provide external recording options without upsetting anyone. First, they could support external Firewire or USB2.0 disk drives with encrypted content that will only play on the box it was recorded on (or maybe others in the household). Second, if they support Firewire/DTCP, they can support any DTCP compliant recording device and allow content providers to decide record recording rights.


Agreed! The context of my original point was that TiVo won't support technology to record whatever you choose to external digital devices. The points you make are valid and I should have been clearer as you so righlty point out.

quote:
Originally posted by majortom We are all talking about a box that TiVo would deploy within 12-18 months. At this moment, there is not a single OpenCable compliant cable company (as far as I know), and given that CableLabs only issued its HD OCAP spec on 29-Aug-2002, it seems unlikely that there will be deployments any time soon. Second, this is more than a technical issue. Even if there are OCAP systems, but providers deploy non-TiVo DVR gear (e.g. an HD Explorer 8000), that they do not require people to purchase but instead will rent, TiVo (and all other box manufacturers) will have a hard time competing. People are not used to buying their cable boxes, and until that behavior changes, and there is wide deployment of OCAP hardware, it makes no sense for TiVo to try to build cable compliant boxes without a cable partner interested in deploying them.


As per the timing, I agree. I thought I tried to be clear that we are a year or so away from this happening on the OpenCable front. On your point about forced rentals, however, that is not accurate. The Congressional mandate was for the cable system to create a system that did NOT require consumer purchases or rentals from the cableco's. ON THE CONTRARY ... the entire point was to FORCE the cableco's to unlock their (and their suppliers') lock on the set-top industry. Congress's mandate was (and is) for consumers to have the right to buy/rent boxes from whoever they choose and cableco's are MANDATED BY LAW NOT TO REQUIRE a box purchase or rental from them.

I have been very much surprised by the argument that you and others make that consumers are NOT USED TO BUYING a box. What is TiVo? A set-top box. By the very act of buying a TiVo, all the relevant consumers in this discussion will have bought a set-top box. They won't need to be convinced, prodded, conjoled to buy something. They'll already have one or want to buy one with HDTV functionality ... that's the entire point of this thread. So, for the folks that are relevant to this discussion they will be quite comfortable going to Best Buy, or whererver, to get their cable set top. TO BE CLEAR The cable compliant box will NOT be some separate box that TiVo needs to convince the cableco's to distribute. The relevant box WILL BE AN HDTV TiVo that TiVo will distribute through its CE partners in national chains. THIS IS NOT IN ADDITION TO A SET-TOP ... THIS WILL REPLACE THE NEED FOR A CABLECO PROVIDED SET TOP! The cableco's will be wholly irrelevant to the distribution question. TiVo will NOT NEED to work with them. TiVo might for other reasons work with them as they are with AT&T, but the BEAUTY of the pending set-top standards is that they won't HAVE TO - and neither will Sony or Phillips or UltimateTV or SonicBlue or any other compliant HDTV set-top CE manufacturer.

On your final point about not very many cable plants are deploying HDTV ... that runs counter to many articles that I've posted and linked to on this site. Most if not all of the major cableco's have committed to broadcasting significant HDTV content by the end of the year. I've linked at least a half dozen articles on this topic in this forum where one cableco after the other has announced plans and has announced actual deployments. No, not every network is broadcast on every cableplant in the country ... but, where it matters for TiVo (ie: where the early adopters are and where the lion's share of their customers are) in the major markets there is REAL progress on cable HDTV broadcasting and significant amount of HDTV content from most networks will be carried by most cable plants in the major markets where the largest percentage of potential TiVo customers are in the coming 18 months.

quote:
Originally posted by rttrek Finally, a new idea: Several of you have supported interchangeable input modules. How about interchangeable output modules? Instead of USB, FireWire & DVI outputs, add a slot or two which could support any one (or more) of these (have component video built-in). These would be much cheaper than plug-in tuners.

Similarly, provide module options for coax digital audio and stereo analog audio.

To save TiVo engineering resources, document the slot and let Jafa, 9th Tee and others provide modules.

I'd buy one of these immediately, and another one almost as quickly. The second one would allow me to also finally buy that big screen/plasma for the living room, since I've sworn not to until a time shifter is available.


All excellent points! My XBox has one output port that comes with a basic RCA plug output cable for average TVs. You can separatly buy whatever type of output cable you want that plugs into that same port for about $20. I my case I separately bought the S-Video output cord/adpater and the standard cable output/adpater ... a great idea ... reduces costs and makes the thing work with any TV set for an extra $20 a pop!

Last year I seriously considered plunking down up to $10,000 on a plasma screen ... saw one at Good Guys in San Francisco that knocked my socks off. I was going to go the whole OTA HDTV nine yards ... but as soon as it dawned on me that I couldn't time shift this stuff (and combined with the whole down-rez fiasco for non DVI/DRM-complian sets) ... I canned the idea until TiVo (or a competitor) came out with a decent time-shift solution. Since then I've also added the need to work with cable systems as a third minimum criteria that needs to be met before I plunk down my hard earned cash on HDTV. But, I eagerly await that day when I can pony up the cash for a great system that can time shift HDTV/digital TV received through my cable provider. Can't wait!

...Dale


Posted by: interactiveTV

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
Ultimately cable companies will NOT be placing their HDTV signals on their digital tiers (as opposed to an analogue tier) because there will not, in the longer term, be anything other than digital tiers. But let's be clear, it is not at all certain where cableco's will have to place the initial HDTV signals. I think it VERY likely that the FCC/Congress will mandate HDTV signals to be included in whatever "lower" tier the analogue equivelants now reside. Remember, the objective of Congress/the FCC is to eliminate the analogue network signal altogether. It appears (as of last week) that their will NOT be dual must-carriage obligations (but even that is not 100% clear yet). If there is NOT dual must carriage, when the analogue signals are shut off at each station the only remaining MUST carry signal will be the digital signal and this, necessarily, will HAVE to be contained on the lowest basic tier. For the next year or so we may very well see network HDTV signals relegated to upper tiers, but I think this will start to switch VERY quickly once the transition starts rolling - especially in major markets.

As per my prior point, this may be true for a year (perhaps two at max) but it won't be long before most, if not all, network HDTV signals will be part of the basic tier ... certainly once the transition is complete and, perhaps, the FCC/Congress will mandate all HDTV signals be carried in the basic package at no extra cost. We'll see how this shakes out, but my sense is that those who can't afford more than the basic tier will NOT be those early adopters investing in the high priced digital sets during the early period when HDTV signals are still up in the higher teirs.



We should be careful in this discussion to differentiate between DTV and HDTV. Nothing I have seen mandates HDTV anywhere. Fox is the ultimate preacher of that specific sermon. I don't see the MSOs being mandated to carry a 1080i signal but it could get interesting. Right now, the MSOs are permitted to compress broadcast signals that are must-carry. And compress they do. Ugh.

In the absence of must carry, I suppose all carriage quality would be negotiated.

Could an MSO relay a 480P downrezed signal instead of the original 1080i broadcast? And we already know that must carry and the extra broad or data cast in the digital world is a nightmare. If Fox decides to go with two crappy digitals OTA, the MSOs will carry one, not both.

Everything will go digital, but I suspect that for awhile quality will have a surcharge, like DiscoveryHD where you aren't paying for the content but for the higher resolution of the content.

I have a 3100HD here in NYC (and plasma is on my holiday list, Dale :)) Yes, no Tivo when in HD world, but the digital sound and the quality on my XBR400 more than makes up for it usually. Sopranos in HD is truly something to behold.

I agree with you, HD will be important in the cable world. I'm seeing lots of road maps right now discussing exactly that and HD carriage on some MSOs, specifically Time Warner, is surprisingly good. How Tivo integrates into that is another issue. I want a HD Tivo now. If you gave me a Tivo, exactly the same feature set as my current SA (well, maybe the Series 2 instead) except with HD, I'd be happy. The issue is input to that box.

My newly built HTPC can't timeshift HD because I don't have OTA. A pity.

I think it's easier to make a DirecTV HD Tivo. I think it's important to work on the cable side. But I wouldn't expect 1080i on the basic tier. Digital, yes, but 1080i? I'm not so sure.

_ITV


Posted by: grins

Since you're all waiting with bated breath (some of you with baited breath ;) ), my minimums on a $500 unit

Ability to record 1 DirecTV or local OTA
Ability to watch a prerecorded stream while recording 1
1080i output via component cables
optical audio output.
10 hours storage

I'd pay another $100 each for
record 2 DirecTV or OTA, watch 1
output modules

As everyone else, I'm ass-uming upgradeable disk space and super cool tivo integration and UI. A bonus would be if the HDirecTiVo would use the network to find free disk on other TiVos.


Posted by: BizarroTerl

I have a DirecTivo. If I can get the same functionality for OTA HDTV (including dual tuners) I'd buy it within a week.


Posted by: Knative

Since I'd use a HDTiVo to record the (mostly) network shows I watch it would have to work like my DirecTiVo. The "Gee Whiz That's Pretty" factor doesn't help me if I can't timeshift my shows. That being said:

* Dual tuners for OTA DTV. There's too many conflicts in the networks' schedule now. This will only get worse.
* Single tuner for DirecTV HD is fine. There are opportunities to catch a repeat later in the week. Assuming I go through the trouble to replace my dish and add the needed cabling & multiswitches.
* Be able to watch a recorded show will recording another
* 1081i output via component.
* Storage space of 20 hours or more, upgradeable

Basically taking a box like the OTA & DirecTV one available now from RCA and merging it with a TiVo. I don't need to be able to save anything off to tape or disk in HD.


Posted by: Richard Casto

Minimum...

SA Model

1 OTA ATSC Tuner
1 OTA NTSC Tuner
10 hr record time, but expandability is a MUST
Component and Hollywood friendly HD outputs
1080i


DirecTiVo Model

1 OTA ATSC Tuner
1 DirecTV Tuner
No NTSC Tuner (to keep cost down)
10 hr record time, but expandability is a MUST
Component and Hollywood friendly HD outputs
1080i


Step up from "Minimum"....

SA Model

2 OTA ATSC Tuner
1 OTA NTSC Tuner
30 hr record time, but expandability is a MUST
Component and Hollywood friendly HD outputs
Standard non-HD outputs (RCA, RF, etc.)
1080i, 720p, 480p, etc.
Higher quality line doubler


DirecTiVo Model

1 OTA ATSC Tuner
2 DirecTV Tuner
30 hr record time, but expandability is a MUST
Component and Hollywood friendly HD outputs
Standard non-HD outputs (RCA, RF, etc.)
1080i, 720p, 480p, etc.
Higher quality line doubler


Posted by: rogo

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak


While difficult and technically possible, local broadcasters will not go for it because they will lose the ability to add crawls, weather-alerts, etc to their feeds.

Also, if this was the case, D* and E* would have tried to push this route with normal LIL to save bandwidth -- I don't think HDTV gives them anymore leverage to do so.


Your thoughts on this being difficult are dead on. However, if it worked, then the crawls, etc. would be no problem either.

Imagine that the national feed is playing for everyone and the spot-beam birds are spooling the ads to a hard drive for playback during the local commercial spots (this is a few minutes per hour, btw, so you could carry probably 15 markets per transponder with ease... use caching cleverly and some people could "miss" a download but see the ads).

Now, crawls and alerts are "urgent" type stuff, like "Hey, Kansans, get in your damn basements because an F-4 is comin' down I-70. RUN! RUN!." Those alerts get a higher priority than the commercials feed... They are just a few bytes anyway and they are sent as a "datastream" that is interpreted by the box and put up as an OSD, as if they were an overlay menu or somesuch.

All this would be damned hard to pull off and there is much devil's work in the details, but this is entirely possible to do. If the networks wanted to be carried on satellite in HD, they'd sure have strong incentives to help work it out. Yes, it would cost many many millions, but a lot less than the incremental additional satellites and uplink centers (keep in mind that true spot-beaming of all HD locals could be done with many, many birds and perhaps 8 uplink centers and 8PSK set-tops that all supported turbo-coded feeds; this plan above would still require more satellites and might still require 8PSK encoding, but it would require a lot fewer birds and probably fewer uplinks and would preserve much more of the existing infrastructure investment which will matter a lot if the merger gets the kibosh).

Mark


Posted by: JoeFloyd

JVC is building a consumer HD Camcorder.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=175649

Of interests to me is the discussion of the compression technology being used. Essentially, JVC has a custom ASIC which is capable of compressing 720p at 30 fps into 25 Mbs.

A working prototype was recently displayed at a tradeshow in Japan.

Irregardless of differing political views concerning Hollywood's apparent prohibition of analog connectors and not withstanding the absolute paranoia that stems from the technical possibility of recording the Analog HD Component signals.... Tivo could use a similar technology. 720p at 30 fps may not be optimal bur if it's your only option for recording from your cable or satellite box I'm sure most of us would think that's it's good enough for now. Also, 720p@30fps can be converted to 1080i or 720 at 60fps without too much trouble.


Posted by: feldon23

Oh no, he said "irregardless". That ruins the whole post. :)


Posted by: BizarroTerl

In the past few years DirecTV has added a lot of local content. I've seen the signal quality go down because of the increase in the number of channels. This leads me to believe they don't have any significant capacity left to add an appreciable number of HD channels. I suspect this is the case for regular cable also.

Does anyone know if D*, E*, or the cable companies have the additional capacity to add HD channels? If they don't then only an over the air HDTivo would make sense.


Posted by: davidmin

Someone at avsforum calculated that D* could add 5 or 6 hdtv channels. These would be on the side satellites, using empty transponders.

David


Posted by: mkingman

quote:
Originally posted by DLiquid
I think what most people are asking for is for TiVo functionality to be added to your typical 2002 HD DirecTV/OTA STB. A decent HD receiver already tunes DirecTV and OTA very well and integrates the channels into one guide. Just slap some TiVo functionality in there (analog OTA support not needed, as others have said).

I agree completely. I'd get rid of my cable and subscribe to D* if a box like that were available.

However, since I currently get all of my HDTV OTA, I would also be very happy with a "standalone" HDTiVo... think "Series 2 + ATSC tuner". One stream, OTA-only for ATSC, digital component video/digital audio outputs. Being able to record from both the NTSC/ATSC tuners simultaneously would be a "bonus" but not required.

Since there is no easy way to time-shift HDTV and the amount of HDTV content continues to increase, I find myself watching more and more live HDTV and using my TiVo less and less. That is the sad thing in all of this.

-M


Posted by: BizarroTerl

Aren't those transponders really in reserve for failed transponders? Either way, 6 channels is pretty weak to cover all the local channels they compress now.


Posted by: feldon23

Bizarro, there's space on 110 and 119 for HD channels, especially after the 119 spot beam satellite goes up.

I would be shocked if ESPN HD, HDNet Sports, and HDNet Movies ended up not going to DirecTV.


Posted by: BizarroTerl

How much space (# of channels)? I can see that if they have room for a few (say less than a dozen) that HD sports and a few HD movie channels would be added. I just don't see how they can broadcast 4 or 5 HD channels for each of the umpteen markets for local channel programming.

Without this it seems to me it's much more savvy of Tivo to offer a dual ATSC/NTSC channel OTA box. Yes, eventually cable/satellite systems will have more channels. That looks to be dependent upon adding more satellites which costs mucho $$$ and takes a lot of time to implement.


Posted by: majortom

quote:
As per the timing, I agree. I thought I tried to be clear that we are a year or so away from this happening on the OpenCable front.


Given that the spec is a few weeks old, the earliest hardware for it will not be available best case until late next year and then will be at least another 6-9 months before it is widely deployed.

quote:
On your point about forced rentals, however, that is not accurate.


Here is my orignal quote:

quote:
Even if there are OCAP systems, but providers deploy non-TiVo DVR gear (e.g. an HD Explorer 8000), that they do not require people to purchase but instead will rent, TiVo (and all other box manufacturers) will have a hard time competing.


I said nothing about forced rentals, but about optional rentals. I am confident that most people given a choice to pay $999 for an HDTiVo plus a $10/month fee to TiVo, Inc. vs. renting a box from My Big Cable Company, most will stick with their current behavior and rent. Just as I believe that unless cable companies are forced to subsidize cable box purchase as their DBS competitors do, most consumers will not bother to buy, but will continue to rent.

quote:
I have been very much surprised by the argument that you and others make that consumers are NOT USED TO BUYING a box.



Again, here is what I said:

quote:
People are not used to buying their cable boxes, and until that behavior changes, and there is wide deployment of OCAP hardware, it makes no sense for TiVo to try to build cable compliant boxes without a cable partner interested in deploying them.


There are currently under 500,000 TiVo customers of all types. Even if there were no DirecTv customers (i.e. non-cable customers that are used to buying their hardware), they are a tiny portion of 100-million cable customers.

quote:
By the very act of buying a TiVo, all the relevant consumers in this discussion will have bought a set-top box. They won't need to be convinced, prodded, conjoled to buy something.



My point is that if TiVo wants to sell to an audience larger than their existing installed base, selling a cable product without support from a cable company is likely to be a losing proposition (especially if cable companies compete by renting boxes on their own).

Your argument seems circular - people that will buy a TiVo receiver will buy a TiVo receiver. For an HDTiVo box to be successful it must easily be able tosell to a market that is not limited to a subset of its current stand alone market but all possible HD-set owners.

quote:
On your final point about not very many cable plants are deploying HDTV ... that runs counter to many articles that I've posted and linked to on this site. Most if not all of the major cableco's have committed to broadcasting significant HDTV content by the end of the year.


AT&T Broadband, still the largest cable company in the U.S. has committed to a single HDTV deployment in the entire United States and that deployment does not even supply ABC and CBS our largest HDTV content providers. While it is true that Cox Cable, Charter Cable and Time-Warner Cable have several deployments none of them has even hit 25% or their customer base, and none of them is providing HD using Open Cable Compliant HD gear.

Again, you stated that you would not buy HD gear until your cable company provides you with HD. Given that AT&T Broadband is your cable company and that they have no announced plans to provide HD any where outside of Chicagoland, you are not likely to be a customer for a first generation HDTiVo box.

quote:
where it matters for TiVo (ie: where the early adopters are and where the lion's share of their customers are)


I would like to see some numbers that support your statement. I think that the San Franciso Bay area is home both to a large percentage of TiVo's current installed base, and to many HDTV customers. Since most of the area is covered by AT&T Broadband (as are many other cutting edge markets), I'd say that you will have to produce number to convince me.

quote:
in the major markets there is REAL progress on cable HDTV broadcasting and significant amount of HDTV content from most networks will be carried by most cable plants in the major markets where the largest percentage of potential TiVo customers are in the coming 18 months.


For the next 18 months, all cable customers will be using proprietary cable gear for HD, so I do not see how your statement can be true.

/carmi


Posted by: Dajad

Carmi ...

I'll end this one here ... Clearly I wasn't getting what you were saying and/or you weren't getting what I was saying ... It doesn't appear that we disagree about that much.

I no longer live in San Francisco by the way. I'm now in L.A. ... but that could change in a week or so.

As I understood it (and as per several articles I've linked into this forum) the Cablelabs standard, was established and finalized in January ... not August ... but, perhaps, they've changed it again since January. All that may be moot as per the article I linked into this thread as Congress may relent from its current requirement that the conditional access management modules be severed from the basic digital receiving component of any set-top.

Bottom line for me is it makes sense for TiVo to manufacture and sell a cablelabs standard-based Digital TiVo as soon as they can so that they can sell it to the early adopters first (wherever they are and wherever their are initial compliant MSOs) and to the masses that will want it later as more and more MSOs implement this Congressionally mandated technolgical standard. The MSO's have committed to deploy the standard as soon as set-top manufacturers start to build to it. Any consumer that chooses to buy a PVR in the future that subscribes to HDTV will want such a device. I sure do. Anyone RENTING an HDTV box from a cable provider (and we both agree they won't be obligated to) will have the CHOICE to abandon that rental and buy a TiVo to replace it so as to have access to the tremendous advantages that time-shifted PVR technology offers them.

...Dale


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
As I understood it (and as per several articles I've linked into this forum) the Cablelabs standard, was established and finalized in January ... not August


From CableLab's web site: 08/29/02 CableLabs Issues OpenCable Specification for High Definition Set-Top Boxes

quote:
Bottom line for me is it makes sense for TiVo to manufacture and sell a cablelabs standard-based Digital TiVo as soon as they can so that they can sell it to the early adopters first (wherever they are and wherever their are initial compliant MSOs) and to the masses that will want it later as more and more MSOs implement this Congressionally mandated technolgical standard.


Given that MSO's are likely to stall this as long as possible for any system they have already upgraded to support Digital Cable (likely to be their major markets), I do not see significant penetration until late in 2004. If I were in charge at TiVo, I would not begin to produce an OCAP-compliant box until I saw large numbers of OCAP-compliant MSO, simply because the history of changes to standards and requirements in this space is clear (remember that all commercial broadcasters were required to be broadcasting DTV by may of this year while in fact fewer than 490 stations actually are doing so).

Again, given that we are talking about a box (or boxes) that we hope TiVo will deliver by fall of 2003 (most likely a year earlier then we can expect OpenCable systems in any real numbers), it seems clear that unless a cable company steps up as a partner, TiVo's first round of HD boxes will not be for cable, but OTA-1394/DTCP or DirecTv ready.

quote:
The MSO's have committed to deploy the standard as soon as set-top manufacturers start to build to it.


I have seen no evidence of this and in fact have seen a great deal of reluctance from MSOs to spend money upgrading their systems for OCAP compliance. Cable companies are notoriously cheap (TCI - now AT&T Broadband - required Scientific Atlanta to produce a STB with out a composite video out in order to save the cost of the connector even though the hardware to provide that feed was still there). They are likely to do the minimum that is required of them at the last possible moment and even then to try to drag it out with lawsuits and requests for extensions.

quote:
Anyone RENTING an HDTV box from a cable provider (and we both agree they won't be obligated to) will have the CHOICE to abandon that rental and buy a TiVo to replace it so as to have access to the tremendous advantages that time-shifted PVR technology offers them.


I have much less faith in consumers than you have. Echostar's 501/508 is a digital VCR replacement, with a single tuner. They have successfully sold it against TiVo's DirecTiVo products because they were cheaper (depending on how one calculated prices) and most people do not understand the differences between a DVR and a true PVR. I expect that most consumers will just rent whatever box their company provides and calls a PVR.


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by rttrek
I hate to mention it, but it's fall already. Perhaps you mean next fall?


I meant fall 2003. Sorry if that was not clear.

/carmi


Posted by: rbird

Lots of great stuff in here...I just wanted to respond to one thing.
quote:
Originally posted by rttrek
Don't include (I don't want to pay a red cent for the cost of adding these):
It's kind of silly not to include at least one analog low-res output. Not only is it mega-cheap to add, but it opens up the product to those (like me) who don't yet own an expensive HDTV, yet still enjoy the benefits of the HD programming such as widescreen format and excellent picture quality. In addition, you can use RF/composite/s-video to feed an extra TV in another room. I don't see any reason to exclude this feature.

As discussed many times above, an NTSC tuner would be nice, but there are significant advantages ($$$) to not adding it. I can get behind that.

As for my personal requirements, I'd like a system that could support Dish. I'm not a DirecTV customer and have no desire to be.

Bob


Posted by: Dajad

Majortom/Carmi

Clearly if the cableco's are not supporting the standard than you are right that TiVo shouldn't build to it. But if when they start to (as they are mandated by law to) TiVo should. However, since this issue is in particular flux now, since, as per the article I linked above, Congress may move the ball on this, TiVo clearly can't definitively settle on an HDTiVo-cable box until things are worked out as to what will ultimately be mandated by law and supported. But, TiVo should (and likely has) definitively conclude that AS SOON as this is settled they should be out of the gate as quickly as possible with a box. If I were them I'd wait until I saw some big CE companies building to the standard and then start building at the same time. Heck, ultimately it will be TiVo's partners like Sony building these boxes as TiVo bows out of the hardware business again. But TiVo will need a reference design for this and this reference design should be pretty much complete by now save for whatever details change in the spec and the law between then and now.

Thanks for the link ... that was helpful ... How the standard has changed since they "finalized" it in January I don't understand. My guess is that the DVI and HDCP compliant aspects of the spec were added to the finalized spec in January.

I COMPLTELY agree that cablecos are ultra cheap and reluctant to roll-out new technologies ... that is why I so emphatically support the notion that TiVo should have a strategy to "go-it-alone" without relying on these reluctant gate-keepers before moving forward with a digital set-top strategy.

My approach, if I were TiVo would be to monitor which MSO plants implement the standard. I'd keep an ever evolving updated list on the TiVowebsite. I'd then start marketing the device in those areas as they come online. We've been around and around and around this issue on this forum so manyt imes that my head is spinning on it. Suffice it to say, there's a VERY LARGE install base of HDTV owners today (somwhere around 2,000,000) who, given that they can afford the high end displays, are TiVo's most likely target market AND who currently have no HDTV PVR capabilities. I think this market segment is crying out for an HDTiVo. I'm certain that as cableplants build to this standard, the HDTV owners in each location will scramble for HDTiVos. The install base of under-served HDTV users is 400% larger than TiVo's current install base. To me this is a HUGE opportunity for TiVo and its box-building partners.

As for your not seeing evidence of MSO's willingness to deploy the new standard. I subsribe to the trade-rag Broadcasting and Cable ... In that publication the Cable Industry heads have been quoted as saying they will support and deploy the standard as soon as the CE manufactures build to it. A bit of chicken & egg here obviously, but as this starts to happen TiVo should be there. I did a quick search here for my prior links to the actual article, but I couldn't find it ... many of the original links are now dead. In any event, I didn't make up my statement. When I see it again I'll post another link back to it here.

...Dale


Posted by: miimura

All this OpenCable nonsense is why I originally brought up the Modular concept. It's also why I said that the cable module would be problematic. To me Tivo should introduce an HDTivo as soon as possible. OTA ATSC is technically cast in stone and is very easy to capture and send over firewire. I'm not saying Firewire is a basic requirement of the box, but you might as well put the hardware in. Kinda like they did with the USB on Series 2. Once the hardware is there you can always do stuff with it later by sofware updates.

One ATSC tuner is the most basic functionality needed and should be built into every HDTivo. Two tuners would be great.

It seems to me that the easiest module to make is the HD Dish module. As long as you include QPSK and 8PSK decode, you're there and nearly future-proof. Again, very easy standard MPEG-2 stream capture and firewire transmission.

DirecTV is a little harder because it's not standard MPEG-2. However, Tivo should be able to deal with this and they have shown they know how to work with DirecTV.

I think Tivo should get a move on and get this box out into the market. Show a clear roadmap and people will get on board. Early adopters will adopt even earlier if they know that what they buy will eventually meet all their requirements. So come out with the ATSC only box and if it takes a few more months to get the modules debugged and approved by providers, so be it.

I will be happy with an ATSC only box today to go with my Series 1 connected to my analog cable. If I knew that eventually Tivo would offer a module to upgrade my HDTivo to tune eventual HD over cable that would be even better. If they made an announcement now that it would be available 1Q03, I would forget about my plan to buy a Samsung SIR-T165 and a Mitsubishi D-VHS. The cost of those two boxes alone should easily cover an HDTivo plus an additional 160-200GB disk.

- Mike


Posted by: feldon23

What cable customer is going to buy an HDTiVo for $1,000 that won't record ESPN HD, Discovery HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet Sports, and HDNet Movies?


Posted by: miimura

I would.

I'm willing to buy it to use with OTA until ATT Broadband can get their sh** together. BTW, I don't currently get HBO, SHO, HDnet, and I rarely watch ESPN.

[Edit]
If Dish follows through with their HD PVR this cal. year and it's any good - I may dump cable and Tivo will miss the opportunity to sell me a box.

- Mike


Posted by: Dajad

Miimura makes a good point ... and Feldon, I'm starting to think that I might buy an OTA ONLY HDTiVo myself if:

1. It was reasonably priced; and
2. I could network it with my other TiVo

It's funny how my head works ... those of you who have been around a long time KNOW I DESPISE monthly payments. Hence, I bought a lifetime subscription back in October of 1999. I'm in the grand-fathered group so I can move it to my next TiVo - ONCE.

The idea of having to pay for a second monthly or lifetime subcription price for a second OTA-only HDTiVo kind of freaks me out. That's funny cause I'd think nothing of dropping, say, $750 for an OTA-only HDTiVo but I'd be VERY peeved that I'd have to pay a second monthly or lifetime subscription for it - ESPECIALLY if this was only a stop-gap box and TiVo came out with a truly integrated Cable-based HD-TiVo a couple years later.

The primary HDTV broadcasts that concern me ARE the network broadcasts. However, I would also want my Sopranos & Sex in the City recorded and Enterprise. I'm not sure if UPN actually broadcasts OTA in L.A. where I am now and in Silicon Valley where I'll likely return in the next few months. For me, not being able to record High Def HBO shows would NOT be a deal killer, but not being able to record Enterprise, for me, would be a deal killer because it and West Wing are my favorite shows right now.

Anway, if I could get past my "second subscription" phobia and an OTA-only box could be networked with my existing (or next) generic stand-alone TiVo, I might very-well purchase such a beasty ...

It's an interesting idea nonetheless.

...Dale


Posted by: jweitzman

Networking, for me, would be ideal. I very much want the integration of DirectTivo, and I desperately want to be able to record the HD Sopranos, etc. Yet most of my HD watching is network TV. I don't mind bearing the cost of my personal TV-watching habits by buying separate integrated tuner/Tivos, as long as they can figure out how to work together.

I only want one user interface. I want one Season Pass Manager, and if the program is available on more than one Tivo, it's just another option in Record Options.

This, I think, is a good cost compromise, and aside from adding the NIC cards to Tivos (which I'm happy to pay for as an upgrade option as long as it's supported), most of the Tivo work is in software.

Using emerging standards like ZeroConf (which Apple has used quite elegantly in the now-open source Rendevous code), individual Tivo units would self-configure into a network when they are connected, so it's still a simple consumer experience.

So for myself, I'd happily buy an HD-capable DirecTivo (even if only one of the two tuners was HD for now) and a separate OTA HD/SD unit. They get their own, separate feeds, and would have their own, separate outputs. I'd run an ethernet cable between the two and the Tivo software and hardware would recognize it and configure them. I could access either one's TivoCentral and program them. They would synch, so even if I lost connectivity, each would know what it was supposed to record. Even if I programmed something while connectivity was down, as soon as it was restored, each would get their proper instructions.

Later, I could add a digital cable unit and hook it into the network.

Now that's a future that can be here now, and I'm looking forward to it!

(Oh, and just for fun, as long as they're networked, they could use each other's storage, but maybe that gets too complicated. :))

Jeff


Posted by: feldon23

quote:
The primary HDTV broadcasts that concern me ARE the network broadcasts. However, I would also want my Sopranos & Sex in the City recorded and Enterprise.
Sex and the City is upconverted. Sopranos is full-blooded HD. Enterprise is shot on film and may be produced in HD next season.


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by miimura
It seems to me that the easiest module to make is the HD Dish module. As long as you include QPSK and 8PSK decode, you're there and nearly future-proof. Again, very easy standard MPEG-2 stream capture and firewire transmission.


Although demodulating QPSK/8PSK would be easy, building an Echostar compatible box can not happen without permission and support from Echostar. Their access control system is proprietary. I would also argue that even if Echostar were willing to allow TiVo to build Echostar boxes (very unlikely), that unless they were also willing to subsidize those boxes to the same level as their own boxes, it would be a waste of effort. Not enough users understand what a PVR is vs. what a DVR is. Echostar's own boxes would be hundreds of dollars less than a non-subsidized TiVo box and most customers would not understand why they should buy a TiVo box instead.

quote:
DirecTV is a little harder...


Again, DirecTv is unlikely allow TiVo (or any other licensee to build a box that will work with any service other than DirecTv and OTA. Their goal (and Echostar's goal as well) is to create barriers to switching. DirecTv choose TiVo to build their DVR because DirecTiVo customers had the lowest rate of churn they had seen. If people could keep their HDTiVo and just switch to Echostar or cable, DirecTv would see TiVo customer churn rate become indistinguishable from their general market and they will have lost their largest reason to heavily subsidize DirecTv TiVo boxes.

quote:
Show a clear roadmap and people will get on board. Early adopters will adopt even earlier if they know that what they buy will eventually meet all their requirements. So come out with the ATSC only box and if it takes a few more months to get the modules debugged and approved by providers, so be it.


It would be very dangerous for TiVo to release a modular box that they promise would work with HD digital cable, Echostar and DirecTv without having already secured design approval from all three groups. Otherwise, they can not be sure that their design will be accepted by all three and they stand the risk of promising (and worse selling) something they will be unable to deliver.

quote:
If they made an announcement now that it would be available 1Q03, I would forget about my plan to buy a Samsung SIR-T165 and a Mitsubishi D-VHS.


This is the clearest reason why they should not announce a box until they are ready to ship it. People stop buying current products in anticipation and TiVo ceases to exist long before they are able to reap revenues from unavailable new products.

/carmi


Posted by: BizarroTerl

I'm sure Tivo, as well as most companies, wants to avoid the Osbourne Syndrome and thus holds back announcements until release is imminent.


Posted by: miimura

quote:
Originally posted by majortom
Although demodulating QPSK/8PSK would be easy, building an Echostar compatible box can not happen without permission and support from Echostar. Their access control system is proprietary. I would also argue that even if Echostar were willing to allow TiVo to build Echostar boxes (very unlikely), that unless they were also willing to subsidize those boxes to the same level as their own boxes, it would be a waste of effort. Not enough users understand what a PVR is vs. what a DVR is. Echostar's own boxes would be hundreds of dollars less than a non-subsidized TiVo box and most customers would not understand why they should buy a TiVo box instead.
You're reinforcing my understanding that the problems are political, not technical. Do you know what motivation E* has for NOT using Tivo software in their DVR boxes? I'm not saying Tivo's job to make a E* compatible box is easy, but it should be doable. Do you know what the actual amount of subsidy is for a Dish 6000 box? That box needs to be maxed out with 8VSB and 8PSK modules to be truly useful for HD these days.
quote:
Again, DirecTv is unlikely allow TiVo (or any other licensee to build a box that will work with any service other than DirecTv and OTA. Their goal (and Echostar's goal as well) is to create barriers to switching. DirecTv choose TiVo to build their DVR because DirecTiVo customers had the lowest rate of churn they had seen. If people could keep their HDTiVo and just switch to Echostar or cable, DirecTv would see TiVo customer churn rate become indistinguishable from their general market and they will have lost their largest reason to heavily subsidize DirecTv TiVo boxes.
When I originally wrote my post about the modular design, I started out with 4 different dedicated boxes. One for Dish, one for DirecTV, one for Cable, and one for OTA only. The sat boxes would have OTA also, cable would probably not. I re-wrote the post with the modular concept because I figured it would be better for Tivo to have less different boxes to design and distribute and better for customers. I guess you're saying that what's good for us and good for Tivo is probably NOT what will happen. However, I'm also guessing that DirecTV did not know churn would be less on DTivos until they were already in use. DTivos give DirecTV has a meaningful competitive advantage over E* because it's such a great box. Unless DirecTV already has a HD PVR in the works, they should be worried about losing customers to E* becuase E* will probably have a HD DVR on the market before the end of the year.
quote:
It would be very dangerous for TiVo to release a modular box that they promise would work with HD digital cable, Echostar and DirecTv without having already secured design approval from all three groups. Otherwise, they can not be sure that their design will be accepted by all three and they stand the risk of promising (and worse selling) something they will be unable to deliver.
So get on with it! Get the approvals, cut through the politics and get us a kick-ass product. If Tivo has to build separate boxes to placate the providers so be it. I don't really see the big difference between selling your module on e-bay when you switch vs. selling your box. Keep in mind that the whole merger situation may make this a lot simpler. Consensus seems to be that E* spec will prevail if the E*-DirecTV merger goes through. Tivo could reduce their risk by coming out with a fixed config E* + OTA box first. Whether or not to do a OTA only box becomes more of a toss-up depending on how the subsidy works and how much the sat stuff adds to the BOM.
quote:
This is the clearest reason why they should not announce a box until they are ready to ship it. People stop buying current products in anticipation and TiVo ceases to exist long before they are able to reap revenues from unavailable new products.
In the overall scheme of things, I agree that pre-announcing and vaporware are bad. However, news of E*'s new boxes has come out and stuff is shown at trade shows months before they're ready for consumers all the time. Heck, Tivo has shown HD boxes at shows for a long time. They just make a point of saying that neither they, nor their manufacturing partners have committed to building it for consumers. But in the end, why should Tivo care if I postpone or drop my Samsung and Mitsubishi purchases?? I understand that the Samsung T165 STB would be stop-gap solution until a full function PVR with Firewire is available and Samsung should too. Tivo's financial position and how long they will be around is unrelated. I also doubt anybody that currently wants a HD Tivo is even thinking about buying a current Tivo model. People who are into HD these days already have all the NTSC gear they need. Obviously Joe 6-pack is not a target customer yet, but should be in a few years.

- Mike


Posted by: rbird

quote:
Originally posted by miimura
You're reinforcing my understanding that the problems are political, not technical. Do you know what motivation E* has for NOT using Tivo software in their DVR boxes?
Ooh ooh ooh! I know the answer to this one! :D Echostar was burned by Microsoft big time during their collaboration on the Dishplayer. I won't say that the DP's problems are 100% Microsoft's fault, but it IS my opinion that Dish's image as a second-rate PVR producer IS their fault. See, what many people don't know is that MS pulled the guys behind the Dishplayer concept (the FIRST satellite-integrated PVR) off the project to design UltimateTV. The DP took an almost immediate hit in software quality (when Dish could get them to update the software at all, that is). Microsoft's shoddy beta testing program didn't help matters any (although admittedly it's better than Dish's nonexistent program). What even more people don't know is that now that the UTV division has been disbanded, at least a few of those guys went back to the Dishplayer, and (coincidentally? I think not!) now the DP is stable again.

It all boils down to Echostar not trusting anyone to write their receiver software but themselves. I don't blame Charlie for being wary, but IMHO Tivo has proven themselves many times over and their hesitation is irrational.

Sorry for the semi-off topic tangent.

Bob


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by miimura
You're reinforcing my understanding that the problems are political, not technical. Do you know what motivation E* has for NOT using Tivo software in their DVR boxes? I'm not saying Tivo's job to make a E* compatible box is easy, but it should be doable.


While there are many serious technical problems with a modular design (such as never allowing unencrypted HD anywhere in a system before a lockable component) out, licensing issues would be insurmountable (in my opinion). Echostar does not allow any licensees other than JVC and RCA (and only then because of RCA's lock on Radio Shack).

Echostar wants to control all revenue on their system. They do not care about quality or user experience, just price and control. They were burned by a stupid deal with Microsoft and think that their 501/508/721/(mythical)921 are (to an uneducated consumer) just as good as a TiVo, but do not have a monthly fee.

quote:
However, I'm also guessing that DirecTV did not know churn would be less on DTivos until they were already in use. DTivos give DirecTV has a meaningful competitive advantage over E* because it's such a great box.


You are correct. That is why they chose TiVo for their DirecTv branded PVR and not Microsoft. They are less concerned about Echostar though, and more concerned about cable companies.

quote:
E* will probably have a HD DVR on the market before the end of the year.


In his last Charlie Chat Ergen stated that 921s will not be available until late next year at the earliest.


quote:
I don't really see the big difference between selling your module on e-bay when you switch vs. selling your box.


If your argument is correct (that a modular would be cheaper a contention with which I disagree), then it would mean that it would cost less to switch and would mean (possibly) that people could keep content on their systems when they switched. Most people do not use e-bay, and would just eat the cost of a switch. Both DBS providers want that cost to be as high as possible.

quote:
But in the end, why should Tivo care if I postpone or drop my Samsung and Mitsubishi purchases?? ...
Tivo's financial position and how long they will be around is unrelated. I also doubt anybody that currently wants a HD Tivo is even thinking about buying a current Tivo model. People who are into HD these days already have all the NTSC gear they need.


TiVo, Inc. does not care at all if you delay purchase of any non-TiVo gear, however, you are clearly mistaken that people that want HDTiVo receivers would not buy current TiVo boxes. I am currently waiting to purchase a Series II DirecTiVo for my Parents' house (they are switching from Echostar), and for several friends that have HD sets but want gear now. The holiday season is TiVo's biggest sales season. It would clearly hurt TiVo substantially if there was confusion over a vapor product.

/carmi


Posted by: miimura

quote:
Originally posted by majortom
TiVo, Inc. does not care at all if you delay purchase of any non-TiVo gear, however, you are clearly mistaken that people that want HDTiVo receivers would not buy current TiVo boxes. I am currently waiting to purchase a Series II DirecTiVo for my Parents' house (they are switching from Echostar), and for several friends that have HD sets but want gear now. The holiday season is TiVo's biggest sales season. It would clearly hurt TiVo substantially if there was confusion over a vapor product.
OK, let me say what I actually meant... I want an HD Tivo. I am not considering buying another NTSC Tivo. I think that there are many other people in my situation that feel the same way.

Do you want to buy another Tivo for yourself? I am also considering buying a Tivo for my parents. However, I don't really think your examples match "People who want an HD Tivo". I also think that DTivos are awesome, but I wont get DirecTV just for that. I also want to see what's going to happen with the merger before I invest in expensive DirecTV-only hardware.

- Mike


Posted by: majortom

quote:
Originally posted by miimura
OK, let me say what I actually meant... I want an HD Tivo. I am not considering buying another NTSC Tivo. I think that there are many other people in my situation that feel the same way.


I understand that you would not buy another NTSC TiVo box, but there are many people that currently have no TiVo boxes and will have to decide this holiday season if they should buy a TiVo now, or wait for something cooler that had been announced and should ship in just a few months. So while that may not describe you personally, it describes others.

quote:
Do you want to buy another Tivo for yourself? I am also considering buying a Tivo for my parents. However, I don't really think your examples match "People who want an HD Tivo".


My Parents just bought a new HD-set from Sony. They are current stand alone TiVo users. They would buy an HDDirecTiVo receiver were it available, and if one were announced, might very well wait instead of getting a DirecTiVo box now when they make the switch to DirecTv. Also, if an HDTiVo box had SD out, many people might decide to wait for that box even if they do not have an HD system now so that they would not have to upgrade their unit when they get an HDTV.

quote:
I also think that DTivos are awesome, but I wont get DirecTV just for that. I also want to see what's going to happen with the merger before I invest in expensive DirecTV-only hardware.

- Mike


If the merger were approved today, it would still be a minimum of two to three years before they would begin swapping hardware. At a savings $8 a month (if you have only one standalone TiVo box and do not get TC Platinum) you will have paid off a DirecTiVo receiver before you would have to switch. Given that tuners and associated hardware are (behind the disk drives) the largest cost in a TiVo, I cannot imagine that a two-tuner module for a modular system will cost less than $200. It does surprise me that you think people will happily buy modules for a system that will be just as obsolete as your DirecTiVo receiver, when you will not buy new hardware even where the investment will obviously pay for itself.

/carmi


Posted by: ToddD

OK...so to answer the question....


Let's start with the Series II Directvo....

To that let's add HD reception and recording (Both from DTV and OTA)

Large Hard Drives...(1 160GB would be about right...with room for another one)

The Tivo network software so that you only have one now showing and one to do list per home even if you have several HD Tivo's

and lets please include a firewire link so that we might be able to archive the programing like you can do with the current units (subject to the flag of course)

That would be the perfect unit!

Hope we see it soon!!!

Todd


Posted by: rogo

Todd... Your system could be built with a sidecar on the Series II Directivo for ATSC reception, a USB 2.0 harddrive and a software upgrade. And, of course, a digital out for video would be needed to make it truly useful :).

I'm sure the Series2 DTivo hardware could easily handle one HD record at a time, if not two.

This product could be produced quickly, but would still require some engineering, beta testing and a lot of QC.

mark




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