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Selling upgraded hard drives on eBay and TiVo canceled them
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Posted by: boroarke

Is it illegal to upgrade your TiVo? I didn't think so. I have been selling upgraded hard drives for people that did not want to do it themselves. I just received an email from eBay which states: your item has been ended at the request of Tivo, Inc., a member of eBay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program, because they filed a sworn statement that it offers a product or contains material which violates their copyright, trademark or other rights. In the interest of protecting all eBay users, we end such listings to avoid any association with potentially infringing or unlawful items.

Any ideas or comments?
thanks!

Posted by: nmiller855

Could you post the whole description of the item here so we can see what part of it made it questionable to Ebay staff?

Posted by: boroarke

eBay didn't have a problem with it, it was TiVo, Inc. that reported to eBay that they need to cancel it because its infringing on their rights.

The discription is in HTML so Ill just give you a summery. There was not much to the discription. It basicly said, Upgrade your own TiVo and save $ and then it just said that all you have to do is plug it in, no computer needed. Nothing more. Is it legal to upgrade your TiVO? Is it breaking TiVo's copyright laws?

Posted by: Mars Rocket

I suppose it's because you're selling a drive with TiVo software on it, but it does seem odd that they would suddenly start objecting to that kind of thing.

Maybe somebody from TiVo can comment on this?

Posted by: ChiRusty79

Depends on what you do to what you give your customer. If you send them a hard drive with any of TiVo's hardware or software on it, it's definately illegal. If you give them a hard drive that they just plug in and marries the other one automatically or something like that, then probably no. On the other hand if you sell a REPLACEMENT hard drive (A:), that would contain TiVo software which you cannot redistribute.

Why not contest the claim TiVo makes? Ask eBay for arbitration. Just because someone claims one infringes on their copyright doesn't mean the claim is valid.

Posted by: boroarke

I have, eBay gave me an email: piracy@tivo.com. I sent them an email but they have not replyed. The drive does not have the TiVo software on it, it has been prepared and then will be married once the buyer connects it. I too find it odd that TiVo would have them cancel my auction but there are others who still have their auctions live. I was just wondering if TiVo is cracking down on people upgrading their own TiVos. Also, what about those people on eBay that are selling the directions on how to upgrade the TiVo? They still have theirs going too.

Posted by: nmiller855

Your link takes me to the reply form not the e-mail you received.

Posted by: stormsweeper

quote:
Originally posted by boroarke

The discription is in HTML so Ill just give you a summery. There was not much to the discription. It basicly said, Upgrade your own TiVo and save $ and then it just said that all you have to do is plug it in, no computer needed. Nothing more. Is it legal to upgrade your TiVO? Is it breaking TiVo's copyright laws?

Why don't you post the text of the description. HTMl is just text with a few extra things added.

Posted by: brettatk

I just did a search on Ebay for a Tivo Drive. There are tons listed, usually if they have been removed it gives you some message saying so once you click on the item.

Brett

Posted by: avaloncourt

I have had Vero cancellations in the past when no actual violation occured. It was because someone somewhere misread something about the auction content. As noted above, ebay doesn't proactively enforce violations. This was a request for cancellation made by a VeRO member, in this case Tivo. Probably someone there viewed the auction as distribution of their software without permission.

I wouldn't have any strong hopes that ebay will bother replying. If they do they'll probably just pass the buck and tell you to deal with the VeRO member directly because it's out of their hands. These people only read about one in four words of an email such as yours and if they see some vague keyword you'll get a canned email response related to that keyword and nothing at all related to the auction in question.

I will warn you that if you decide to sell the same item again and the same complaint comes in from Tivo you will receive a 30 day suspension of your priveleges. Do it once more and you'll be banned from sales there completely. No, it's not fair, it's ebay. It's very difficult to carry on a meaningful exchange within anyone at SafeHarbor or VeRO.

They don't respond any better with written correspondence either. I'm pretty sure the mailman dumps their mail in the intake of a Troy-Bilt Chipper/Shredder at the office door. :)

Posted by: boroarke

I actually just received a phone call from TiVos legal department and they explained what the problem was. I had the TiVo logo on my auction page. They said that we can not put their logo on our page and as long as I remove it, then they are fine with it. They said that they do not mind us upgrading hard drives and selling them. They just said that we cant have the little tivo guy on the page. They are also contacting eBay and telling them the conditions and that they are allowing me to continue. They guy was actually very nice.

Posted by: FunkedUp

That's pretty cool of them actually. Nice to see them being responsive like that.

Posted by: dbett

Nice.

I figured it had to be something like that. Otherwise, how do you explain that 9th Tee and Hinsdale sell "plug and play" upgraded tivo hard drives.

Posted by: boroarke

I was very surprised too to pick up the phone and that it was TiVo. They were quick and easy to deal with.

Posted by: DaveLessnau

Does that mean 9thtee is going to have to get rid of the TiVo guy graphic for their TiVo Upgrades link on their home page?

Posted by: boroarke

I don't know. I have been selling these with the same pictures on my auction page for 8 months and never had any problem. I don't know if TiVo is just becoming more and more strict or what? I have had to redesign my page and take out all of the little TiVo guys. My page does not look as nice now with the changes but Id rather do that then not be able to sell it on eBay and lose the 2k a month I was making.

Posted by: stevel

9thTee may have permission from TiVo to use the logo. Copyright and trademark law says that you need permission before use, and there are usually some terms and conditions to be followed.

Posted by: avaloncourt

quote:
Originally posted by boroarke
I was very surprised too to pick up the phone and that it was TiVo. They were quick and easy to deal with.

Wow, that was really nice that they did that. Most companies wouldn't have bothered. It's very nice that they clearly defined what the problem was and how to correct it to their satisfaction (which was painless). I now have even more respect for Tivo.

Posted by: boroarke

As soon as I received the notice from eBay, I emailed TiVo and left my phone number. With in 30 mins of sending the email, they were on the phone with me. They knew I was a customer and told me that the appreciate out business and If I needed anything, hesitate to call him.