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Enterprise "Vanishing Point" (SPOILERS)
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Posted by: trojanrabbit

This episode just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know why.

It doesn't help that it turns out to be Hoshi stuck in the pattern buffer and it was her matter stream coalescing. I guess that means it's OK that nothing makes sense. If this is the result of just a couple of seconds in the buffer, what the heck was Scotty thinking in the TNG episode where he saves himself in a recircualting buffer.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Well, she had a bad dream based on transporter anxiety. I doubt Scotty had transporter anxiety...

Posted by: AndyK

Predictable and cheesy. The writing on this show continues to be spectacular....ly bad.

Posted by: TracySMiller

quote:
Originally posted by trojanrabbit
This episode just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know why.

It doesn't help that it turns out to be Hoshi stuck in the pattern buffer and it was her matter stream coalescing. I guess that means it's OK that nothing makes sense. If this is the result of just a couple of seconds in the buffer, what the heck was Scotty thinking in the TNG episode where he saves himself in a recircualting buffer.

Well...by the time Scotty came around to that transporter trick, over 150 years had elapsed, enough time for there to be plenty of improvements to transport technology. Near the end of "Vanishing Point", Archer even mentions that Trip makes some suggestions to Starfleet about the transporter problem and how to fix it.

Posted by: avaloncourt

I guess I had the same problem with this episode as any Trek episode dealing with phase-shifting, parallel universe or any other mode where their hands pass through things. How the hell are they walking around solidly on the deck?

Secondly, she took a shower and changed clothes. The new clothes weren't part of the whole transporter error so either there was a sports top and shorts floating around with nobody in them or she would be walking out of her clothes when she dematerialized. Hmmm...

Posted by: jimborst

Remember the Next Generation when Geodi and Roe were cloaked, that one always left so many questions for me. They could throw the Romulan through the ships walls and run though the ships walls but the floors were solid? Wouldn't they just be pulled through the floors to the gravity generator? What was up with that?

By the way in this episode it was just a dream.

Posted by: marshallld

Hum, everything that happened to Hoshi after she left the planet was suppose to be in effect a dream, the doc said as much - it all happened in her mind as the transport started working again. In dreams everything is possible so there is no problem with changing cloths or falling through the floor. It did do a good job of showing how neurotic Hoshi can be, especially since it was all in her mind.

Posted by: Worf

Sigh, this episode suffers from the classic "ghost" problem. If Hoshi can go through walls, why doesn't she fall right through the floor?

Interesting episode, ranks with that TNG episode where Beverly Crusher found herself the only one on the Enterprise...

And getting stuck in the transport buffer - that's been done a lot... like the Barclay's transporter aliens, and several other episodes.

Posted by: JYoung

Oh come on! The old "it was a dream sequence". Talk about using the reset button. And the major problem was that I had figured out it was a dream sequence right after Hoshi overslept. After that, the episode was pointless because I'd already figured it out and nothing in the episode mattered.
If Beavis and Butthead could write a decent teaser with some suspense, I might have bought it but this episode just doesn't work. In fact, it was downright boring.

And why is Reed recommending transporter protocols? Shouldn’t that be Tucker’s job as he’s the chief engineer.....

Grade D.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Umm...Worf, meet Marshallld...

Posted by: kiljoy

Same thoughts here, boring and predictable. You know, I really go into each episode with a clean slate, the ol' This one might be good!!! But it's really starting to wear off. Before the opening credits rolled, I said to my girlfriend, "This is going to be one bad episode." I was right.

Posted by: allan

I figured pretty quickly that it was all in Hoshi's mind, and I kept mumbling to myself that if I was right, I'd be PO'd. I was right! I'm PO'd!

Posted by: shaunrose

The worst thing about this episode is that I was actually enjoying it until the end. I loved the STTNG episode with Roe and Geordi and I have no problem (in fact I think I'd prefer it) if Enterprise does variations on good stories from TNG. So, I'm watching this thing wondering to myself, "why is all this happening?" "how did those aliens get on the ship" "are they somehow behind the accident?" "how will Hoshi communicate and get back her form?" -- you know, all these suspenseful and interesting questions that you have when you watch a decent television show. And I'm thinking, this is a pretty good episode, I cant wait to see how they weave these threads together and conclude this episode -- and THEIR ANSWER IS IT WAS ALL A DREAM???? THAT'S THE DUMBEST ENDING I'VE EVER SEEN. They've got to get some better writers.

Posted by: tonyoci

I thought this was a great episode right up until the end. I thought it was a classic trek story with intrigue and not predictable. Then the "Bobby Ewing" ending came along and ruined it for me. The damage done to my opinion of this show by having a good episode with a spoiled end is much greater than the average episodes we have been seeing.

Very dissatifying.

T

Posted by: LoadStar

Well... hmm. The episode you all are referencing - the one with Geordi and Ro Laren- is "The Next Phase." And yes, this is a blatant rehashing of that episode.

That episode - something happens during transporting, everyone thinks they're dead, they uncover an alien plot, and has to find a way to communicate that to the rest of the crew while at the same time finding a way back to being real.

This episode - something happens during transporting, (eventually) everyone thinks she's dead, she uncovers an alien plot, and has to find a way to communicate that to the rest of the crew while at the same time finding a way back to being real.

The only variant - this one was a dream while in the transporter buffer, while the other one something actually DID happen to them.

Besides for that? I think the "surprise" that it was a dream wasn't much of a surprise. The oddities with the oversleeping and the translation scene on the bridge pretty much gave that away. The only surprise was that she hadn't even materialized - it wasn't just that she came back and fell asleep and dreamed the rest. That much I'll agree with all of you - it was predictable.

Other than that, I think you all are much too hard on this episode. For being an obvious rehash of "The Next Phase," it's solidly performed and once it's established that it's a dream sequence, the flaws in physics that bugged me about The Next Phase (they can pass through walls, but can still breathe and can still walk on the floor) go out the window with this episode. Better than average, not spectacular mind you but a solid re-make.

Posted by: Dale Sorel

Now I know what my whole life has been...a "burp" in some Transporter sequence :rolleyes:

Posted by: unoriginal

quote:
Originally posted by jimborst
Remember the Next Generation when Geodi and Roe were cloaked, that one always left so many questions for me. They could throw the Romulan through the ships walls and run though the ships walls but the floors were solid? Wouldn't they just be pulled through the floors to the gravity generator? What was up with that?

I think they use gravity "plating", so each tile on the floor generated it's own gravity. They would probably explain it by saying something to the effect of, "the energy field that created the gravity was what they were walking on, not the floor itself". If I were one of the writers, that is what I would say.

Anyway, why the hell are people still watching this show? (ENT I mean)

Posted by: mitchrc

The moment they do a transporter accident indicates that the writers are out of ideas. I love the show, but I remain deeply frustrated that they so quickly abandoned the "getting used to the new ship/deep space/Vulcan politics" premise. Any trekker would tell you that the pre-history that all the movies and shows have touched on would fill 5 seasons of episodes. Jeez! They have two wars to cover for christsakes. We didn't need the temporal war crap.

Posted by: mitchrc

Terrible episode. They have so much good material they could cover. All the prior series and movies have created so much material that could be covered. We don't need any temporal wars or transporter accidents to drive stories. This is why I gave up on Voyager and I'm afraid Enterprise is going down that same path.

Posted by: jones07

quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal

Anyway, why the hell are people still watching this show? (ENT I mean)

Because it's Star Trek. And enough Star Trek fans will watch every ep. No matter how bad it is. And Paramount knows this. Also any "real' Star trek fan knows that by year three Enterprise will really get rolling under its own steam with better writing and actors you care about. Just like all the other Star trek serials. Paramount knows what their doing when it comes the Star Trek. After all it's their biggest money maker. When was the last Star Trek
show that was Cancelled do to low ratings ?

Posted by: JerryLBell

Although transporter accidents (and later holodeck accidents) have seemingly been done to death over the years by Star Trek and all its incarnations, the thing I liked about this episode was that it was more about the experience of being trapped inside a computer. Her conciousness was accelerated up to computer speeds and she lived a few days worth of experience in just a couple of seconds. And since the experience was virtual and based on her own perception and fears, it reflected her view of the world and her fears.

Of course, everybody knows that the whole "transporter" thing was actually ripped off from the "molecular escalator" from that great cancelled series, "Galaxy Quest"!

Posted by: Knative

The idea of a long apparent elapsed time for the transportee -vs- the actual time required to transport reminded me of a Stephen King story so I dug out his book "Skeleton Crew" and reread "The Jaunt".

quote:
How long in there in terms of years? 0.000000000067 seconds for a body to Jaunt, but how long for the unparticulated consciousness? A hundred years? A thousand? A million? A billion? How long alone with your thoughts in an endless field of white? And then, when a billion eternities have passed, the crashing return of light and form and body. Who wouldn't go insane?

Count me among the guilty who give Enterprise more slack than it probably should have just because it's Star Trek. Just waiting for it to hit its stride. Hope springs eternal I guess. Although I never could get into DS9.

Posted by: martinp13

Well, count me among the few that liked this episode. The entire "dream sequence" was strange and disjointed, just like a dream sequence should be. It was full of things that didn't make sense, unless you looked at them from Hoshi's point of view. She was "trapped" in that room, but later "figured out" how to interact with things. I was actually glad it ended up that way (I figured it out when she was in the shower... much better than my "Sixth Sense" deductions), because if it WASN'T a dream sequence, they had to explain why the aliens weren't detected, why everyone acted so coldly to Hoshi, why she was "disappearing" so oddly, why Phlox didn't figure it out, and finally, they had to wrap it up in under 5 minutes! :)

It reminded me more of the TNG episode with Beverly and the Static Warp Bubble. Everything was based on her mental states and fears, and it even ended with a "come to the light" jump just like Hoshi. :)

Posted by: jones07

Oh my God. More Real Star trek fans are coming out of the woodwork :) welcome. Yeah this season is a little slow and episodes could be better. But as any Real ST fan knows. Things well really get good by season three. Then Enterprise will be a must watch show.

Posted by: Dale Sorel

quote:
Originally posted by martinp13
... much better than my "Sixth Sense" deductions...

I too found myself comparing this episode to "Sixth Sense," a movie I really enjoyed.

I could tell something was up, but I never was quite sure what was happening. Even when she found the aliens on the ship, I thought it was the Sulabon (s) playing games...

Posted by: Jonathan_S

The aliens didn't bother me to much. If Hoshi had really slipped out of phase with reality somehow then presumably the aliens had something to do with it as they were also clearly also out of phase. But they could have come on board either by transporter which we saw almost at the end, or what I had assumed initially, that since they were invisable due to being out of phase they just snuck on the shuttlepods before Tucker and Mayweather flew them back up.

out of phase being my phrase for describing Hoshie's semi ghost like state.

Doesn't explain how they could have appeared and held the crewmembers hostage, but if they had tech to control the phase shift (to extend the metaphor) then that could have been explained.

It would have been sort of contrived technobabble, but the episode could have been resolved in a non-dream manor. Still it was pretty obviouse after the "oversleeping" bit that it was angling for a dream sequence.

Posted by: TIVO_GUY_HERE

I always thought the Tranporter was too advanced for this era anyway.

Posted by: IndyJones1023

Another horrible epsiode. I can't believe I am actually contemplating deleting a season pass for a Star Trek incarnation, but this is just another example of how Trek has grown to both suck and blow at the same time. Did B&B just watch an old re-run of Dallas? And someone here said this was a good re-make of the TNG episode with Geordi and Ro. Does Trek need to re-make itself? That episode was no more than 10 years ago! Please tell me the writers can think of new material instead of rehashing old scripts with the old Dallas-twist. What's next? Is Trip going to his the intergalactic lotto and move into Beverly Hills?

Posted by: Otto

I liked it right up until the end. The "it was all a dream" is a cop out ending if ever there was one.. I sat there watching and hoping they wouldn't pull that crap at the end, only to be disappointed.

But it was good up until that point. The inconsistancies with becoming see-thru, the clothes, the moving through objects... these I can forgive as being technically incorrect in order to further the story. Plot devices are as old as fiction, and this would be far, far, far from the first to miss the technical boat on that score.

But using an old, tired, annoying plot device like "it was all a dream" to wrap things up is just the worst cop out ever.

I mean, damn, it would have been better if they had gotten her to beam back to reality 5 minutes sooner and then pulled off some kind of "she got time shifted" mumbo-jumbo thing, so that she knows the future, prevents the boys from getting kidnapped, and saves the day by finding the bomber guys. It would have been a total load of technical hogwash, but it would have made the ending 1000% better.

And I thought "compressing the data stream" was what made the whole transporter thing possible in the first freakin' place. I'm wondering about inconsistancies with references to transporter technical jargon in previous series' now...

Posted by: martinp13

quote:
Originally posted by Otto
It would have been a total load of technical hogwash, but it would have made the ending 1000% better.

Hah... we'd be getting twice as many "this episode sucked" responses. :)

quote:
And I thought "compressing the data stream" was what made the whole transporter thing possible in the first freakin' place. I'm wondering about inconsistancies with references to transporter technical jargon in previous series' now...

Inconsistencies??? Where??? Perish the thought! ;) I am starting to think they don't go back and check for continuity... they just rely on "hey, back in TNG, was the data stream compressed or uncompressed?" "Uncompressed, I think... you gonna eat that last donut?". :(

I didn't really think of it as "it was all a dream"... I was thinking of it as "she's still in the transporter buffer". Regardless of how they presented it at the end, it was going to be a "cop out". I just thought they did a good job of leading some of us to the "still in the buffer" conclusion before the end of the show. Worked for me.

Posted by: mattdrury

This one hurt very, very much. I'm at the near-pulling-SP point as well. If it hadn't been done so many times before, if it didn't cop out with the reset-button at the end, if there was something meaty other than the furthering of trek-tech, it may have been watchable.

Posted by: Skittles

On the one hand, it's episodes like this that make me want to go in and cancel the SP. The show was so horribly cliche and predictable that I was dismayed.

On the other hand, the last 3 Star Trek shows were horrible during their first two seasons, and found salvation in their third seasons (Yes, even Next Gen). And what's worse, there's always that certain episode in the later seasons which starts referring to another episode during "The Crappy Years", and I always wonder what it's referring to.

Posted by: Rcrew

I'm falling into the middle ground of responses here.

I liked the story, right up to the end. It reminded me of an original Star Trek episode. I think it was Kirk that was speeded up, not sure if it was due to a transporter problem thought. Anyway, at his faster molecular rate, he could see aliens attempting to damage Enterprise. I remember he would walk around all the crew, and they would just be sitting there. When time speed went back to the crew, all your heard was a buzzing sound.

Anyway, this show made me think of that. I was disappointed when they made it a dream, instead of dealing with a threat to the ship...

Posted by: tonyoci

Rcrew, that is exactly my feeling. Great show right up to the end.

T

Posted by: jhausmann

quote:
Originally posted by Rcrew
I'm falling into the middle ground of responses here.

I liked the story, right up to the end. It reminded me of an original Star Trek episode. I think it was Kirk that was speeded up, not sure if it was due to a transporter problem thought. Anyway, at his faster molecular rate, he could see aliens attempting to damage Enterprise. I remember he would walk around all the crew, and they would just be sitting there. When time speed went back to the crew, all your heard was a buzzing sound.

Anyway, this show made me think of that. I was disappointed when they made it a dream, instead of dealing with a threat to the ship...

In that episode Kirk was accelerated by the aliens who needed him for to replace one that died. Slight damage was fatal. I believe they accomplished the acceleration by infecting him, either by food/drink or directly.

The best part was at the end, when Spock remains accelerated to affect repairs on the ship. Take something bad and make something good out of it. Enterprise? Take something bad and dismiss it.

Posted by: Otto

quote:
Originally posted by martinp13
Hah... we'd be getting twice as many "this episode sucked" responses. :)

I never said it wouldn't suck. It just wouldn't make me want to throw things at the screen. :D

quote:
Regardless of how they presented it at the end, it was going to be a "cop out".

Unfortunately, you're probably right on that one.

Posted by: Worf

Ick. How can you guys throw things at the screen? I mean, TVs are cheap and everything, but still... if the screen breaks, it means you have to haul the damn TV off to the dump, and go and buy a new TV and break your back installing the freakin' thing! Yes TiVo would catch your shows in the meantime, but still! :D :D :D

And lets not even say about breaking one of those oh-so-flat plasma TVs...

Posted by: DLL66

I'm along the line of thinking with SkittlesDFW. The first season and a half of TNG really blew. It seems to me that the actor had trouble in getting into character, they all seemed to be so stiff. At the end of the run and now their movies, all of the characters smoothed out and seems they are interacting alot better together. DS9 series just sucked in my opinion. Voyager was pretty decent. I think to many people put down ENT because it was not what they think it ought to be.

Posted by: ronsch

quote:
Originally posted by DLL66
Voyager was pretty decent. I think to many people put down ENT because it was not what they think it ought to be.

I'm going to be civil here and just say that Voyager was easily the worst Trek incarnation ever and will continue to hold that title into the next century.

Posted by: Otto

quote:
Originally posted by Worf
Ick. How can you guys throw things at the screen? I mean, TVs are cheap and everything, but still... if the screen breaks, it means you have to haul the damn TV off to the dump, and go and buy a new TV and break your back installing the freakin' thing! Yes TiVo would catch your shows in the meantime, but still! :D :D :D

And lets not even say about breaking one of those oh-so-flat plasma TVs...

Throw soft things like the couch pillows. Don't throw the remote or the gun or the cat or anything else hard and or sharp that's near the couch. But you get the point.

I keep Tivo dolls lying around for TV throwing purposes. They work great.

Posted by: flyersfan

For whatever reason, I'm a TNG fan but never got around to watching an ENT episode... until this one. Like Otto, I was enjoying this episode until the end. I didn't care for the cop out.

To be fair, I'll probably give another episode a shot eventually. It doesn't seem promising, tho.

Posted by: hookbill

I've been a fan of Star Trek since it first came out in the 1960's and have caught most of the shows in all of the different series they have made (I missed a bit of Voyager and Deep Space 9 due to the fact that I couldn't receive it in the area I lived in....long story). I don't know if I'm classified as a "real star trek fan" or not, but I enjoy Enterprise. Yes, I see comparisons of story lines taken from other Star Treks but it doesn't spoil the entertainment value for me.

About fifteen minutes into the show I turned to my wife and said, "It's a dream." I spent the rest of the show wondering if I was right. I'm glad Hoshi just didn't wake up and rub her eyes-- they at least gave a reason for what happened.

Oh....someone asked in a previous quote when a Star Trek was cancelled for low ratings. I believe it was in 1969.

Posted by: Skittles

1969 is correct. It was during the early part of their third season.

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by DLL66
I'm along the line of thinking with SkittlesDFW. The first season and a half of TNG really blew. It seems to me that the actor had trouble in getting into character, they all seemed to be so stiff. At the end of the run and now their movies, all of the characters smoothed out and seems they are interacting alot better together. DS9 series just sucked in my opinion. Voyager was pretty decent. I think to many people put down ENT because it was not what they think it ought to be.

Sorry but I know that's not the case with me. Beavis and Butthead, I mean Berman and Braga, promised that Enterprise would new and different, fresh and exciting. They even claimed that "this was not your father's Star Trek."
Did we get that?
No.

We get holodecks, holograms, replicators, Klingons, cloaking devices, transporter accidents, and Seven of Nine with pointed ears. We get the human Captain with the Vulcan first officer and the wildly emotional best friend.
What's new and different about this Trek is juvenile breast jokes, fart jokes, poop jokes. What's different is a captain that's portrayed as borderline incompetent. The rest of the crew are cardboard characters with few hints of three dimensional depth (with the exception of Phlox).
Yes, TNG wasn't good in it's first season and had problems at the beginning of the Second Season. However, the Second Season was delayed by the Writer's strike so some of that can be excused.
However, Enterprise's story quality hasn't reached the better episodes of TNG's season 1. There has been very little that shows promise of it getting better. By this time, TNG had done episodes like "Contagion", "A Matter of Honor", and "The Measure of a Man".
What are we getting from Enterprise? "A Night in Sickbay", "Marauders". I don't think that they compare.

BTW, the following is from a TVGuide article:

quote:

A scant season ago, the latest Star Trek series, starring Scott Bakula, was a Top 20 show with 18 to 49 year old male viewers. But Enterprise's ratings have plunged, and critics say the series doesn't have the same creative juice as its predecessors. "Enterprise started out strong," says Stacey Lynn Koerner, senior vice president and director of broadcast research at Initiative Media, a media-buying firm. "But this season it seems lost in space." UPN president Dawn Ostroff says the Enterprise crew is ready to explore new directions and that trailers for the series shown in theaters in conjunction with the release of the movie "Star Trek Nemesis" should recharge interest. "We've been working on the show," Ostroff says. "It's getting sexier. We're exploring relationships more and pushing the dramatic elements of the show. You'll see a lot more sides to the characters."

Doesn't sound good to me. Looks more and more like we're going to get Lowest Common Denominator Trek......

Posted by: Skittles

While I'm not surprised that Enterprise is suffering from dismal ratings, I'm going to be patient with it.

My biggest problem with DS9 when it first started was the biggest complaint people had when they heard the show was based on a space station.... they spent most of their time on the station and Bajor and too little time in the Gamma Quadrant. I stopped watching near the end of the first season.

Then, at the end of the second season....enter The Dominion. Then, in the third season, the Klingon/Cardassian wars, Section 31, and the Dominion incursions into the Alpha quadrant. DS9 is still my favorite series out of the entire Trek saga.

All Trek shows (sans the original) are like this. 2 seasons of exposition with shaky writing, then a kick-ass third season that thumbs its nose at you for ever doubting it would come into its own. I'll just suck it up and wait.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by SkittlesDFW
All Trek shows (sans the original) are like this. 2 seasons of exposition with shaky writing, then a kick-ass third season that thumbs its nose at you for ever doubting it would come into its own.

Except for Voyager.

I agree with DS9. I hated it the first 2 seasons. Now, I can appreciate those seasons for the back story (and there were some good episodes in there) but the show took off in season three.

A lot of Trek fans have been putting their eggs into the "give them a couple of seasons to get going" basket. I'm wondering what the next wishful thinking line is going to be once we get to the third season.

And the real scary thing? This line from the TV Guide article:

UPN president Dawn Ostroff says the Enterprise crew is ready to explore new directions and that trailers for the series shown in theaters in conjunction with the release of the movie "Star Trek Nemesis" should recharge interest.

After all the bad buzz I've heard about Nemesis, this could be trouble.

Posted by: JoeTiVo

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
After all the bad buzz I've heard about Nemesis, this could be trouble.

What's the bad buzz? I've been a little behind on the Nemesis news, but have be looking forward to checking it out when it's released (next week?).

Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by JoeTiVo
What's the bad buzz?

There have been some negative fan reviews of a "script" that is going around the Internet (which a few sources in-the-know claim isn't the final shoooting script). Some fan reviews of the movie chide it for poor pacing and a generally blah-se storyline that could have been a TNG episode rather than a full length feature film. AICN has posted some fairly mediocre reviews, and a handful claiming that it's "Good, but not great".

From what I've seen and heard personally, the movie looks good. When I heard. (warning...major spoiler alert.. )...

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
About Troi being raped by Shinzon (sp?)

I knew this wasn't your average Trek movie. Personally, I'm avoiding a lot of promotional material about Nemesis so that it's not ruined for me, and so I don't overhype myself.

According to a few friends, there's about 5 minutes of footage from the movie available for viewing at iFilm

Posted by: LoadStar

I'd have to agree. Voyager never "took off" like the other series. It kept a safe line right down the middle, never becoming anything more than "mediocre." The characters remained as static as possible, with no major character development or personality growth throughout the series. Throughout the series, they dropped tantalizing clues about the characters families and their characters, especially once they started to communicate with home, but for the most part Janeway at the beginning was just about like Janeway at the end, Paris at the beginning is just about Paris at the end, etc. It was decent watching - but nothing I'd consider "excellent."

So far, it seems Enterprise is continuing this trend - except at a somewhat lower level. When it's at it's best, it's only average - and when it's at it's worst, look out world, here comes another stinker. Character development - where Voyager was poor, Enterprise is abysmal. What we know of the characters we pretty much learned in just about the first episode.

And worse yet - they're not even characters that at this point I really think I want to know that much about. We know Merryweather was from a family of freighter pilots, Reed was decended from the British Army line, Archer is forever living in his father's shadow with his work on the Warp 5 project, etc. All established in "Broken Bow" or shortly thereafter. Enterprise seems content not to talk about these characters, but instead just have an almost comic-book like quality where the heroes come in to save or ruin the day, then zip back out again. And the problem being - when you can't connect with the characters, can't mentally think about what motivates them and if they share qualities with yourself, you won't care about what happens. Blow them out an airlock, you won't miss them that much.

And that - in a nutshell - is why I think people aren't tuning in. They just don't care enough to invest an hour of time and try to get involved in the so-called lives of these cardboard cutout characters. Some of the plot concepts are OK in this series - but when there's no characters you can really care about, it's like watching a play where the actors are strictly reading the lines, and not acting. About half-way through, you start to think "So? So what?" That kind of a play would be a waste of your time, and so, unfortunately, is Enterprise.

As for DS9 - It took people a while to get used to this series for a few reasons. One, it was on a space station, and space station = stationary, which a few people took to mean "boring." Two, it was the first Trek series that was (and still, IMHO, the only) more modern format dramatic series - it was a little darker, with a richer writing style and more in depth characters. For all the strengths that TNG had, it was still written much the same as TOS was written back in the 60's - so when DS9 came about, it was a different feeling series.

Posted by: IndyJones1023

I don't think anything will top when Picard sat down at the poker table with the gang at the end of All Good Things. That was the perfect character development arc. It took seven wonderful years to complete it, and it was well worth the trip. And talk about an apt title.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by IndyJones1023
I don't think anything will top when Picard sat down at the poker table with the gang at the end of All Good Things. That was the perfect character development arc. It took seven wonderful years to complete it, and it was well worth the trip. And talk about an apt title.

I agree. While the plot of the last show left something to be desired (IMO, though not as much as Seinfeld ;)) that last scene was a jewel.

"You were always welcome."

Very nice.

To break of into ST series ending shows for a moment (spoilers ahead if you haven't seen the final shows of Voyager or DS9):

Voyagers was best described this way: A show that ran 2 seasons too long ended the final episode 15 minutes too early.

We spend 7 years waiting for this ship to get back to Earth and all we get is a shot of it in the distance? Add to that the bad time travel writing (which TNG also suffered from in the last show) and you get a disappointing episode.

DS9's was pretty good, IMO. I can't wait to get around to it again. They took a full show to celebrate the family on the station and set up everyone's futures. Very nicely done. I'm not a *huge* fan of how much Vic was a part of the show, but I didn't really mind him either.

Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
A show that ran 2 seasons too long ended the final episode 15 minutes too early.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way about the final episode. They spent 7 years talking about what would happen when they got home, and they never showed it. I'm waiting (rather impatiently) for the Homecoming novel to explain the events immediately after the finale.

quote:
I can't wait to get around to it again.

Boxed set of Season 1 for DS9 comes out in February :)

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by SkittlesDFW
Boxed set of Season 1 for DS9 comes out in February :)

I'm not going to be able to afford those for a while, if ever, but I have been quite enjoying watching DS9 seven days a week for the past few months.

We're in the fourth season now.

Posted by: Skittles

I agree...it's nice to have DS9 back on the air. I finally caught Little Green Men last night. Incredibly amusing episode, particularly since I'm watching Taken lately.

Posted by: LoadStar

Warning though - DS9's "P**fit and L**e" (heretofore known as "the episode of which we do not speak") is worse than the absolute worst that even Enterprise has managed to come up with. Avoid like the plague.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by LoadStar
Warning though - DS9's "P**fit and L**e" (heretofore known as "the episode of which we do not speak")

Or apparently spell correctly.

Do you mean "Profit and Loss"?

Posted by: LoadStar

Nope, I meant what I typed... ok, since you asked, here goes... *gulp* "Profit and Lace" (yes, DS9 fans, I hear the screaming from here. Sorry - Bryan asked.)

This was the Trek drek that featured Quark in drag. I'd sooner watch Tony Head (or, heck, Tony Soprano for that matter) in drag than this awful concoction. I would have to say that this hour of television was the worst episode of Trek everywhere, surpassing TNG's "Genesis," TOS's "Spock's Brain," and VOY's "Threshold."

I'd say about the only thing more painful would be to force me to watch the first episode of this season's "Andromeda" again.

Posted by: IndyJones1023

Since I've seen Lore in the ads for Nemesis, someone please refresh my memory of what happened when last we saw him. Didn't he escape with the Borg he ruled in that 2-parter from the 5th or 6th season?

Posted by: ronsch

Well now there's a spoiler I wasn't aware of. Shame...

Posted by: IndyJones1023

quote:
Originally posted by ronsch
Well now there's a spoiler I wasn't aware of. Shame...

They show Data face to face with "another Data" (whom I am assuming is Lore) in most of the ads. Sorry to spoil it for you, but it's pretty prevalent at this point.

Posted by: Skittles

Kind of like the "super secret" destruction of the Enterprise D in Generations...which they then showed you in the commercials.

Posted by: IndyJones1023

quote:
Originally posted by SkittlesDFW
Kind of like the "super secret" destruction of the Enterprise D in Generations...which they then showed you in the commercials.

And show again with the E edition this time around. Thanks for nothing, you bunch of dimwitted marketing dorks!

Posted by: lordsutch

quote:
Originally posted by IndyJones1023
Since I've seen Lore in the ads for Nemesis, someone please refresh my memory of what happened when last we saw him. Didn't he escape with the Borg he ruled in that 2-parter from the 5th or 6th season?

No, Data deactivated Lore and removed the emotion chip that he stole from Dr. Soong in Brothers. Dunno what he did with the body, though.

Posted by: DLL66

Oh my gosh dude, you are quoting to many freaking epsisodes! You expect way to much! It's a freaking TV show! I like the concept. Just like TNG in the first couple of years, it will get better. 7 of 9 with pointed ears...........is that bad!! You got to have some eye candy!!! Geesh!!

quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
Sorry but I know that's not the case with me. Beavis and Butthead, I mean Berman and Braga, promised that Enterprise would new and different, fresh and exciting. They even claimed that "this was not your father's Star Trek."
Did we get that?
No.

We get holodecks, holograms, replicators, Klingons, cloaking devices, transporter accidents, and Seven of Nine with pointed ears. We get the human Captain with the Vulcan first officer and the wildly emotional best friend.
What's new and different about this Trek is juvenile breast jokes, fart jokes, poop jokes. What's different is a captain that's portrayed as borderline incompetent. The rest of the crew are cardboard characters with few hints of three dimensional depth (with the exception of Phlox).
Yes, TNG wasn't good in it's first season and had problems at the beginning of the Second Season. However, the Second Season was delayed by the Writer's strike so some of that can be excused.
However, Enterprise's story quality hasn't reached the better episodes of TNG's season 1. There has been very little that shows promise of it getting better. By this time, TNG had done episodes like "Contagion", "A Matter of Honor", and "The Measure of a Man".
What are we getting from Enterprise? "A Night in Sickbay", "Marauders". I don't think that they compare.

BTW, the following is from a TVGuide article:

Doesn't sound good to me. Looks more and more like we're going to get Lowest Common Denominator Trek......