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Firefly "War Stories" -=Spoilers=-
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Posted by: MarkofT

Nice bit of action there in the middle of all that character development I'd say.

Would not have thought Kaylee would have run like she did, I had figured a shot or two that would have brought the doc or Shepard back.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

"I'll be in my bunk."

"There's no power in the 'verse that can stop me."

"Take me, sir. Take me hard."

Yep. It's a Whedon show. No doubt about it! :D

Posted by: stormsweeper

Well, know we have a better idea what they wanted to do with River. And have a good idea as to what Book may have done before becoming a shepherd. I have a feeling he may have been involved with the Serenity debacle, on the Alliance side.

Posted by: ToddHealy

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Yep. It's a Whedon show. No doubt about it! :D

According to the listing on epguides.com it was neither written nor directed by Joss.

In any case, I loved the episode and hope Fox keeps the show going. It is the only new series that I truly look forward to.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

No, but it's a Whedon show. And it's really starting to act like one!

My point being that while Firefly has had Whedonesque elements since the beginning, it's only been in the last couple of episodes that they all came together to form a true Whedon show.

Posted by: JYoung

I'd rank this episode as good but not great
It looses a few points for not showing all of the rescue scene, primarily the part after they get Mal and head back to the ship.
However, the torture scene with Wash and Mal was the funniest torture scene I have ever seen and then it turned absolutely chilling after Niska focused all his attention on Mal.
Great characterization though throughout the episode.

Posted by: Attack

Does anyone else think that Kaylee is scared of River and that River also knows this?

Posted by: DanT

quote:
Originally posted by Attack
Does anyone else think that Kaylee is scared of River and that River also knows this?

Absolutely! Kaylee's totally freaked over what she saw. I don't know why she hasn't told the others, though.

The only thing that really bothered me about this episode was the shootout. I'm used to forgiving Hollywood for showing people standing out in the open blasting away, but this time Jayne got shot in the arm/shoulder, but at the end, it was Zoe who had a bandaged arm, and Jayne seemed unhurt. :confused:

Posted by: kmcorbett

quote:
Originally posted by Attack
Does anyone else think that Kaylee is scared of River and that River also knows this?

Also I think Kaylee is feeling shame because she froze and River didn't. And she knows River knows she froze, etc.

/kmc

Posted by: bobjohnson

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
The only thing that really bothered me about this episode was the shootout. I'm used to forgiving Hollywood for showing people standing out in the open blasting away, but this time Jayne got shot in the arm/shoulder, but at the end, it was Zoe who had a bandaged arm, and Jayne seemed unhurt. :confused:

Surely you learned long ago never to expect an industry that abhors guns to actually get anything right when it comes to them. For this simple reason, anything gun related, including wounds and bandages doesn't get to me. Besides, Jayne is a super soldier. ;)

Regarding Kaylee: I think it's simply a case of Kaylee being freaked out by the fact that River is a killing machine, and not so much a fear of her own limitations. On another note, Kaylee is a total hottie.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Yes, all science fiction evil masterminds hire their henchmen straight out of the Star Wars Storm Trooper Academy. :D

(A friend of mine and I, whever we see hundreds of bad guys firing ineffectually at the good guys, shout at the screen, "Storm Troopers!")

And while River is indeed a killing machine, she doesn't seem totally thrilled with the prospect... "Mustn't look."

And how nice that somebody on an action show is afraid to fight...and that it's the rough'n'ready engineer, not the effete doctor.

Posted by: DaveLessnau

Wow! That was a darn good episode. Only a couple of very minor things I didn't like:

- They certainly didn't need the lesbian sex scene. They could have cut most of it and, as JYoung noted, replaced it with actually bringing Mal out.
- I still have problems with people firing projectile weapons in a space station.
- The "seasoned warrior", Zoe, leaps out and stands up in plain sight to shoot.

All trivial in light of how good the overall show was. In line with the goodness of showing them bringing Mal out, they could have given some indication of why they didn't finish the job by looting and destroying the station. I assume they didn't do it simply because they'd have been overwhelmed if they didn't immediately fall back. But, they should know that leaving that bad guy alive with his base still intact is setting them up for trouble (and they should let us know that they know).

Another thing that bothered me was Mal saying it was nice of the Senator/Congressman/whatever loaning them that equipment for the rescue. What equipment? I thought they didn't get any help from that contact?

EDIT: And this show is in danger of being cancelled while a lump of dreck like "Enterprise" isn't? There's no justice in the universe.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I wasn't entirely sure that it was the bad guy's space station, as opposed to the space station where the bad guy had his headquarters, in which case they would have been killing a lot of innocent people.

And the bit about the equipemtn I thought was sarcasm.

Posted by: DaveLessnau

Sarcasm would certainly explain it. I guess I didn't pick it up.

Just from the point of view of the cost of having a personal space station, I'd also agree it couldn't have been his. But, if it wasn't his, it was certainly a very interesting type of space station. It sure looked like a bad-guy's base.

Posted by: Attack

quote:
Originally posted by DaveLessnau

Another thing that bothered me was Mal saying it was nice of the Senator/Congressman/whatever loaning them that equipment for the rescue. What equipment? I thought they didn't get any help from that contact?

He was thanking her for the equipment that allowed Simon to put Mal's ear back on.

Posted by: jradosh

Best line...

Zoe: "This is something he needs to do himself..."
Mal: (meekly) "no it isn't"

...next best line...

Jayne: "I'll be in my bunk" (brought to mind the Seinfeld episode "The Contest" :p)

Posted by: DrStrange

It wasn't "meekly" so much as "strangledly". :)

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

I can't add anything to what ya'll have said, but I gotta toss in my "OH YES" for this being a great ep! :)

Posted by: Jonathan_S

I liked Shepards line to the doc.
"Don't worry, I was there; and you still haven't shot anybody"

Posted by: mwallend

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
..., but this time Jayne got shot in the arm/shoulder, but at the end, it was Zoe who had a bandaged arm, and Jayne seemed unhurt...

I watched this episode live, so can't go back and check the TiVo, but I believe that Jayne got shot in the chest, and I believe that he was wearing body armor (which would leave a very nasty bruise instead of a hole.) I also think I remember seeing Zoe get hit in the arm right around the same point of the firefight.

Thumbs up for this episode.

Posted by: stevel

I think this is my favorite episode so far, if only because of, at every turn, there's a setup to a classic cliche and then they turn it on its head. Firefly is the only new show this season I've felt like watching, and I like it better every week. Of course, that means it's doomed...

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

The quality of the past couple of episodes kind of makes me wish that Whedon hadn't elected to start off with a bunch of stand-alone episodes to get everybody acquainted with the show; this only proves that he is at his best when he's doing heavily arc-ed material. I only hope that it is not, as it seems, too late for Firefly...

Posted by: tivospav

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
The quality of the past couple of episodes kind of makes me wish that Whedon hadn't elected to start off with a bunch of stand-alone episodes to get everybody acquainted with the show; this only proves that he is at his best when he's doing heavily arc-ed material. I only hope that it is not, as it seems, too late for Firefly...

Whedon didn't make that choice....sadly it was FOX's decision.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

No, it was his decision from the beginning...what they made happen was removing the original pilot, and re-ordering the episodes. His intent was always to start the arc going after the first half of the season.

Posted by: Mars Rocket

The "dermal mender" equipment was borrowed from the Councilor back on the planet; the preceding scene established that the ship was planetside, and Mal tells Inara to thank the councilor for pulling some strings and lending it to them.

Jayne looks to be wearing a t-shirt with nothing under it during the firefight, and while the scene is cut really quickly it appears as though he's hit in his left abdomen.

Posted by: TiVoLance

Jayne wasn't wearing body armor. I would have noticed ;P

Posted by: RGM1138

Ah, space guns, firefights, high body counts. Girl-on-girl kissing scenes, and an evil Nazi torturer, who escapes at the end. What's not to like? :)

And, how do they get it all past the censors?

My favorite chuckle: when River used "The Force" to nail the three bad guys.

Bob

Posted by: RGM1138

quote:
Originally posted by kmcorbett
Also I think Kaylee is feeling shame because she froze and River didn't. And she knows River knows she froze, etc.

/kmc

Not to mention the fact that Kaylee probably thinks River is scary-crazee too. :)

Bob

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by RGM1138
Ah, space guns, firefights, high body counts. Girl-on-girl kissing scenes, and an evil Nazi torturer, who escapes at the end. What's not to like? :)

My thoughts exactly. There's something for the entire family!

Wow, what an incredible ep this was. I will admit I was a little lost as to why they included the lesbian storyline, although I'm not complaining :). Overall, though, this was a great example of how to make a TV show with lots of action, comedy, drama, all the while exploring your characters quite a bit.

Posted by: mrmike

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
I will admit I was a little lost as to why they included the lesbian storyline, although I'm not complaining :).

Really? Seems to me the whole episode was about seeing facets of people we hadn't seen before. It was a good time to bring it in if it was ever going to be in.

-MM

Posted by: chris1

Great episode! River really kicked ass!

"Can't look. .... [shoots three villains with her eyes closed] .... No force in the 'verse can stop me!"
-River

Posted by: murgatroyd

I was getting that deja-vu feeling while watching the Bad Guy doing his torture shtick in this episode. It felt very much like the actor was riffing on somebody else's performance.

And voila, my husband spotted a promo for Marathon Man on Bravo. It's Larry Olivier's evil Nazi. The still on the Bravo promo really showed the resemblance.

Jan

Posted by: spelcheker

Love all the lines and scenes as mentioned, but what really gets me pumped up is when they show the ship hit the docking port and there is NO sound! That's a very small detail I know, and noticing it puts me in geeky company with the guys who know episode numbers of Voyager shows, but it's just one of the many things done right on this show.

The double zoom shot from the ship to the asteroids, to the station halfway around the world was utterly amazing too. A lot of work for 4 seconds of airtime.

God I love this show.

Posted by: Vesper

quote:
Originally posted by spelcheker
Love all the lines and scenes as mentioned, but what really gets me pumped up is when they show the ship hit the docking port and there is NO sound! That's a very small detail I know, and noticing it puts me in geeky company with the guys who know episode numbers of Voyager shows, but it's just one of the many things done right on this show.

I noticed this too.. All space shots have no sound at all, except for music - Even when there's weapons firing. Score one for realism!

Now, if we can keep this show on the air, I'll be extremely happy.

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by DaveLessnau

- The "seasoned warrior", Zoe, leaps out and stands up in plain sight to shoot.

EDIT: And this show is in danger of being cancelled while a lump of dreck like "Enterprise" isn't? There's no justice in the universe.

I guess you never any of the moves Gina Torres did on Cleopatra 2525.... :D

While Firefly pulled a disappointing 2.4 , Enterprise didn't do much better last week with a record low 2.5. I'm sure that the brass at Paramount is very concerned.....

Posted by: JohnJr

Echo the kudos...

One thing that bothered me is that the medicine, most valuable medicine, was left at the site of the abduction. First, how would any of the criminal dudes leave the "cargo" there?

Second when it was left there, wouldn't it have been better than the credits they could scrape up among the crew?

I think that's it... the rest I liked... especially the torture ;)

-John

Posted by: stormsweeper

quote:
Originally posted by RGM1138
And, how do they get it all past the censors?

Well, they did have the PAW tile at the beginning of the show.

Posted by: stormsweeper

quote:
Originally posted by JohnJr
One thing that bothered me is that the medicine, most valuable medicine, was left at the site of the abduction. First, how would any of the criminal dudes leave the "cargo" there?

Second when it was left there, wouldn't it have been better than the credits they could scrape up among the crew?

1) Well, the team that went after Mal didn't know anything about the cargo.

2) I guess they didn't want to give him anything other than cash, partly because the goods were so valuable. By my estimates that was only 1/5 of their stash in that cooler.

Posted by: dcheesi

Heh, maybe they didn't want to provoke his sense of irony: "Oh, yezz, now you bring me medicine!"

IMHO, what really freaked out Kaylee was River's comment after shooting the guards; she repeated Kaylee's innocent phrase, as if it were all a game, yet her sardonic delivery implied that she knew what she was saying. Creeped me out, that's for sure. The initial "can't look" squeamishness seemed totally forgotten, which only adds to the appearance of dangerous instability.

And I for one think the lesbian scene was totally necessary, for, umm, character development, or uhh... *ahem* I'll be in my bunk ;)

Posted by: sschwart

It wasn't the best Firefly I've seen, but it was very good. Yeah, there were some holes, and some fluff (but hey, it wasn't Inara and the Counciller smearing goo on each other, so it wasn't as lame as Enterprise), but overall, they did a great job.

I think Kaylee is freaked out because she knows what River is capable of... Everyone knows that they did experiments on her, but no one knows what it did to her.... Kaylee has an idea now, and I think it terrifies her. As for River, I think she couldn't look, because it interfered with her ability to "know" where they were... Eyes were fooling the instinct/psychic methods, not that she was disturbed by what she was about to do.

-Steve

Posted by: grins

I laughed out loud when Zoe chose 'Him!....I'm sorry, go ahead'

The show's just too good to last.

Posted by: Family

Sometimes the unexpected is so common on television that we lose our sense of how someone would react to something very unusual. Imagine being with a strange person like River and witnessing what Kaylee saw.

I'd be freaked

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Hey, but where was the Companion during the firefight? I wanted to see if Inara's a fighter as well as a lover!

My girlfriend and I love this show. I hate that it's doing so poorly -- we gotta get the word out. Everyone reading this: Tell two friends to watch. SAVE FIREFLY!

--S.

[Edit: Oops, typo.]

Posted by: philw1776

Gotta admit, this was one of the better episodes. Good enough to recharge my waning interest.

I'm not sure that the torture scene and the lesbo scene belong on TV at 8PM. Yah, I know network limits are being pushed by Josh & others but put it on later please.

Now, off to my bunk.

Posted by: Family

Didn't want to start another thread, but the overnight ratings for this episode was horrible... 2.4/4. To make matters worse John Doe pulled an impressive audience directly after.

Firefly desperately needs a shot at another time slot. Great show, but few are tuned in.

Posted by: UnionBuster

Wouldn't call John Doe's audience "impressive." It was down quite a bit from normal, though it increased the 18-35 (whatever) demos from Firefly.

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

I'd think a decrease can only be expected after 2 wks of no show airing, yes?

Posted by: Family

It's a decrease from already low ratings. I only call John Doe's ratings impressive because of Firefly's numbers and because FOX moved into third place during Doe's slot.

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

That's sad, cuz imo, John Doe isn't nearly as good as Firefly is getting....

Posted by: Family

Agree Cathy... I agree.

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by Family
Agree Cathy... I agree.

I have about 6 or 7 episodes of John Doe waiting for me to be pretty bored to watch.

I watch Firefly almost live, (About 1/2 hour after it starts airing).

Now THAT tells you my opinion of their comparative quality.

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by Family
Agree Cathy... I agree.

Posted by: grins

This weeks Entertainment Weekly reports that, come January, Firefly is indefinitely hiatussed...Zoe, we hardly knew ye.

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

Say it ain't so grins... Say it ain't so... :(

Posted by: brahamt

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
I think this is my favorite episode so far, if only because of, at every turn, there's a setup to a classic cliche and then they turn it on its head. Firefly is the only new show this season I've felt like watching, and I like it better every week. Of course, that means it's doomed...

Damn, change the name of the show we are talking about to Farscape and you could say the same things.

I drives me absolutely crazy when quality shows like Farscape and Firefly, who insist on turning convention on its head is ignored by the populous and abandoned by the network suits.

Just once, I wish they would stay with a slightly off-beat show, that is well-done. At least Farscape got four seasons. I am praying this one gets at least one full one.

Posted by: Chandler Mike

This is Nowhere Man and Sports Night all over again for me...Firefly is the show I love to record, then stay up late with some good snacks and watch Friday night...I get excited watching it because it's so different and fun.

What are the chances that some other network, maybe cable, would pick it up?

Mike

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by Chandler Mike
This is Nowhere Man and Sports Night all over again for me...Firefly is the show I love to record, then stay up late with some good snacks and watch Friday night...I get excited watching it because it's so different and fun.

What are the chances that some other network, maybe cable, would pick it up?

Mike

I really loved Nowhere Man. Talk abot a show that did things differently... The first episode of First Wave had that feeling, but tanked after that.

Posted by: spelcheker

Keep in mind, this is the stinking network that cancelled "Space - Above and Beyond" which has a lot of similarities, such as being produced by the 'hot' producer of the time. (x-files)

Even worse, the last episode of SAAB was a cliffhanger. (ouch)

Posted by: Unbeliever

quote:
Originally posted by spelcheker

Even worse, the last episode of SAAB was a cliffhanger. (ouch)

Not that I remember. SAAB definitely ENDED.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

With all but 2 of the crew dead IIRC and the main dude giving up his search of his girlfriend, that episode ended on a big downer. Maybe set up as a re-purpose, but not a cliffhanger.

--Carlos V.

Posted by: jones07

quote:
Originally posted by Unbeliever
Not that I remember. SAAB definitely ENDED.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

With all but 2 of the crew dead IIRC and the main dude giving up his search of his girlfriend, that episode ended on a big downer. Maybe set up as a re-purpose, but not a cliffhanger.

--Carlos V.

I say it ended. Fox killed off half the cast. :eek:

That was one of the first tv scifi shows I fell in love with.

Fox cancelled SAAB without giving it a fair shot at picking up a fan

base. It never came on at the same time from week to week because

of NFL games running late. Why do FOX pickup these "slightly off-beat

shows" if they do not plan on giving it time to get rolling ? I fear the same

for Firefly :( If Enterprise was on FOX it would have been cancelled by

now.

Posted by: spelcheker

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to do the highlight trick, so if this doesn't work, and you don't want to know about the end of SAAB, don't look.

I remember the crew descending into a dense atmosphere and seeming sure death, but any death not seen is not for sure. I.E., a cliffhanger, IMHO.

Posted by: stormsweeper

quote:
Originally posted by spelcheker
[B]Sorry, I haven't figured out how to do the highlight trick, so if this doesn't work, and you don't want to know about the end of SAAB, don't look.

[spoiler]what you want to hide[/spoiler]

Posted by: DanT

quote:
Originally posted by jones07
Why do FOX pickup these "slightly off-beat shows" if they do not plan on giving it time to get rolling ? I fear the same for Firefly :( If Enterprise was on FOX it would have been cancelled by now.

I agree. Firefly should have been on UPN, and Enterprise on FOX. Then we wouldn't be looking at Enterprise any more, and wouldn't be worried about Firefly being dropped any time soon.

;)