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Firefly "Serenity"
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Posted by: MalachiNY

The Beginning! :p

AND ... <sniff!>

The END!!! :down:

ps-- I pray that this will have a rebirth on another network!

Posted by: Cary B

I was just about to post on this show.

This was by far the best of the series yet, it helped define all the characters, and filled in a lot of the details we have been missing.

This should have been the pilot of the series, I think if it had, more people would be watching now. (Well probably not, as this show isn't just mindless car chases, violence, and sex, or just plain mindnumbingly predictable sitcom, which is what most TV viewers seem to crave these days.)

Too bad this seems to be the end of the series. It had just gotten to the point of being excellent.

Posted by: Ladd Morse

This is the pilot that Fox refused to air because it was boring?

Jeez, am I out of touch with the Network View of the World(TM). Must have been the lack of car chases and ritual humiliation in the guise of Reality Programming.

A fine piece of work. Can you say "nice pacing"?

Ladd

Posted by: LoadStar

Agreed. Thank goodness that Joss is shopping this series around - hopefully someone takes him up on the offer. This was an excellent episode, and had it been aired first, the series may not have tanked so badly.

It also proves that this series is at its best when the "space western" theme is minimized. I'm not saying lose it completely - but some of the episodes they aired overdid the concept to the point that it was gimmicky, trite, and cliche. You had the western themes at use in this episode - but they weren't constantly doing "western"-ish stuff, like herding cattle, doing a train robbery, fording a river in a covered wagon, etc.

Unfortunately, I missed about 10 minutes of this episode - TiVo was in buffer, and I accidentally hit the enter key and it jumped to another channel. I _really_ wish they would add a preference that asks you "You are currently watching a show that is in buffer. Are you sure you want to change the channel? You will lose the contents of the buffer." :(

Posted by: Jonathan_S

How could they have led with Train Robbery instead of this. This was so much better (no that train robbery was horible, but this episode was great)

Plus it set up the charators better, set up the outer moons as being backward technologically (the whole, drop them off with a pick and shovel and maybe a herd) giving a reason why you have spaceships and low tech in the same series.

It sets up the whole thing with Jayne basically being in it for himself/the money making it forshadow him turning in River, and making it more meaningfull when he asks Mal not to tell the crew why he going to be killed.

Starting off with knowing they were close to broke explains why in the early eps, i.e. Train Robbery they were willing to do really risky jobs for apparently low payoff.

On a tech note, when they brought in the packages in the begining of the show and they were still floating in the airlock until someone hit a switch and the grav came on did a nice job of showing that the ship had gravity control (allowing them to all walk normal most of the time) without making a big deal of it. Just showing it as an incidental was a nice touch.

Posted by: Jorgasnarova

Rating "Bushwacked" with "Serenity" reminds me heavily of "Racing the Night," the premiere episode of "Crusade," the short-lived "Babylon 5" spinoff that aired on TNT.

"Racing the Night" had everything. Humor, character development, great space battle scenes. Naturally the suits at TNT demanded a second opening episode to be prepared. Unfamilar with the B5 references, they demanded a more expository episode.

"War Zone" aired. Overwhelming fan reaction: too slow, with too much unnecessary exposition. When "Racing the Night" finally aired, fans were dumbstruck at how superior a premiere episode it would have made. Questions were posed to "Crusade" producer J. Michael Straczynski on how the TNT brass could possibly have preferred "War Zone" over "Racing the Night." JMS's frank reply: the brass at TNT were a bunch of idiots.

Five years later, and it appears much the same mentality thrives at FOX in terms of how they regarded "Firefly." Pity.

Posted by: Jorgasnarova

Oops. Just re-checked the Firefly episode guides.

"The Train Job" was the first episode aired. "Bushwacked" was the second episode aired. Thought I got something wrong there....

Posted by: Worf

I agree. This episode was a great way to start off the show. I barely paid attention during "The Train Job" - and nearly removed it from my TiVo. At least Bushwacked was somewhat better.

Posted by: murgatroyd

I'm completely baffled.

I grant you that it's impossible to judge how an opening episode plays to a naive audience if you've seen later episodes.

However, when anyone writes an opening episode for a show, there are certain things that you want to get done. There's information you want to get across to the audience, characters you want to establish, etc. etc. etc. As everybody has posted already (and will so after I finish this post, I bet), all those things got done, and pretty well, too.

When you watch something like this in retrospect, it's easy to see what Joss was trying to do. You can see how he establishes relationships (and wasn't Kaylee wonderful right away?), all that good stuff. It's all there. And there's nothing particularly bad about the story. So what gives?

I just don't get it.

Jan

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by Ladd Morse
This is the pilot that Fox refused to air because it was boring?

Like every other poster, I don't get it either. I thought that it was a good pilot introducing the characters and starting the series. I thought that there was plenty of action. What did the Fox execs expect? For it to be more like Fastlane? :rolleyes:

Damn them, damn them to Hell. I'm willing to bet money that if Serenity had been shown first, like it was supposed to have been, more people would have given the show a chance.

Stupid Fox.... :mad:

Posted by: Imageek2

This just proves once again that network programmers are all idiots.

Posted by: stormsweeper

I don't recall the war footage from either of the two previous cuts floated about. There was also a bit more ioncidental scenes, mainly where Book is looking around on Persephone.

Posted by: DanT

This episode would have been so good as a pilot, that it's going to make me watch the crappy-quality VCD I downloaded a few months ago and never watched, just to see if I can find a reason why FOX didn't like it originally.

Please let UPN or WB pick this up! My money's on WB, because UPN wouldn't want their viewers to see what a good spaceship show is like.

Posted by: Otto

The VCD I downloaded of the pilot ages ago was the same thing minus commercials and some minor extra dialog. Even in that cut down state, it should have been the rightful pilot as it was much better than the train episode.

Just shows you that FOX network execs are complete and total idiots.. Oh well, maybe WB or UPN will pick it up.

Posted by: MalachiNY

I also like that we got a lil more explanation of what Reavers are.

All in all ... great episode!

To bad it was like putting Genesis at the END of the Bible!

FOX SOX!

Posted by: bdowell

I'll join the pile-on and add the same thoughts - FOX EXECS ARE STOOPID (stupid, stupid, stupid!!).

Poetic justice would be for WB to pick up both Dark Angel and Firefly and use them to kick the crap outta Fox, but Dark Angel is well past gone, and Firefly's window of opportunity to get picked up elsewhere is short to say the least.

I really hope the show survives on another outlet. It would be a damn shame to see such quality programming tossed aside so easily.

As for Fox, I hope that they see the numbers on John Doe drop like a rock and realize later that Firefly was actually helping to pump it's numbers. (Not that I want them to take John Doe off the air, but it would show them what a horrible programming nite Friday is).

One of these days Fox will learn that Friday is 'repurposing nite' and will start using it strictly for that. Once they do, then maybe quality shows that people are missing on other nites will get a chance to build an audience (such as 24 did), and then Fox may yet realize when they have good shows on their hands.

Posted by: spelcheker

So good it hurt. .. man it hurts.
(sniff)

By far the best of the lot.

I think the problem may be me. I seem to be a jinx. Every show I love is doomed. 'Space - Above and Beyond', 'Frank's Place', 'Space Rangers',..

Ha, just kidding. Space Rangers deserved to die a very slow death at the hands of the ravenous bugblatter beast of Trall while being read Vogon poetry.

Posted by: JimSpence

Do network execs honestly think that they know better than the show's producers/writers/directors? That was a rthetorical question. "Honestly think" is an oxymoron as far as networks are concerned.

Lately there have been too many shows that don't get the amount of time to see if they will flourish or they move them around in different time slots to see where it might work without letting it settle in anywhere to see if it will work.

Network execs ARE stupid. Period. The end.

If I had seen this episode of Firefly first I wouldn't have had the ambivalent attitude I had at first.

Posted by: DaveLessnau

I'd like to know the name of the actual Fox moron that decided this episode shouldn't have been the pilot. Golly gee whiz this makes me so angry. As far as I can see, there's NOTHING in this episode that should have prevented it from being the actual pilot. It was great and explained so much of what the show was about. If they had started the series with this episode and minus the voice over at the start of the early episodes, 90% of my early gripes about the show would have disappeared. The hopefully-ex-Fox-suit who screwed this series up so badly should be made to watch daytime programming until he pukes. The decision wasn't just bad. It actively sabotaged things. Inconceivable!

I also echo the other sentiments mentioned here: if this episode had come on before "The Train Job" I would never have had it on my "provisional" list. It would have gone right to the top.

This episode in it's proper place would have made this series the best thing on television. Not only did the Fox nincompoops let that slip through their fingers, they actively, purposefully, did everything in their power to kill the show. If I owned Fox stock, I'd be even more upset than I already am.

Posted by: Maui

Whoever decided not to show this episode as a pilot is a pure and simple IDIOT!

The Train job was such a weak episode in comparison to the rest it did not deserve to lead anything off.

I hope like mad that UPN or WB picks this up!

Posted by: stevel

A damn fine episode of a damn fine show. I wish Whedon all the best in finding another home for it.

Posted by: Hunter Green

It's funny, I thought I read that one of the reasons they didn't go with it is because it was "too Western" but it struck me as a lot less Western than the Train Job ep.

I agree with all, this was a fantastic pilot and should have run first. Getting a pilot right is hard -- almost every great show out there had a hit-or-miss pilot since the creators were still trying to get everything right. To get this kind of quality on the first try is incredible. I can't believe Fox picked this pilot out of all of the pilots out there to decide to delay.

Posted by: jradosh

It's also a shame that this ep. didn't get air time prior to the hospital break-in episode since Jayne's betrayal was foreshadowed in this pilot. So not only was the pilot withheld until it was too late to do any good for the series' longevity, it also made the impact of already-aired episodes less than what they might have been. :rolleyes:

J

Posted by: cwoody222

Wow...great episode. I only gave "Firefly" up until the 3rd episode before I starting watching - it was way too western for my tastes.

Airing this one first might have changed my mind; this was such a fine, fine episode.

Too bad, really :(

Posted by: dmdeane

I agree with all the preceeding comments. Clearly the idiots running Fox now are a different crew from those who greenlighted such shows as The Simpsons, Married with Children, X Files, etc.

Also note the Whedonesque timing and humor at the end, when the Alliance cop tries to hold River hostage: we expect a long drawn out negotiation, and instead Mal just walks in and shoots him! There was something similar in The Train Job, where he kicks the bad guy into the jet intake, but the preceding show was much better for the pilot than for The Train Job.

Posted by: zechman

Argh! This became my favorite show on TV--one of maybe three that has three thumbs up and the only one that I regularly watch the same night it's on.

Here's hoping that we see it come up again on WB--on Wednesday nights at 8:00. :cool:

--Dwayne

Posted by: JYoung

Apparently, this was posted in alt.tv.firefly..

quote:

Tim Minear wrote a message on the Buffistas board:

"Tim Minear - Dec 21, 2002 3:12:12 am EST

Well, I told you so. Yes I did.

And for those who are wondering if maybe we reworked the pilot -- for certainly what you saw can't have been what Fox insisted was too "slow and uninvolving," thereby putting the stink of failure on the show before we ever had a chance to air an ep -- not so much. Joss added the battle scene at the top of the ep, added one or two lines of clarification, but by and large -- yep. That's what Fox didn't want us to air.

By-the-by... after Joss added the battle scenes and tightened throughout and basically answered any problems the network could have had with "Serenity"... from what I understand they never even looked at it. The choice had been made. Stick it on a shelf. I think that was probably a mistake.

What a strange week.

Two and half days into my eight day shoot (I was directing) for this last episode, they cancelled us.

Joss and I were still writing the script. It had been our latest-latest. One large reason for the not being finished: the not knowing. Made it somewhat difficult to concentrate.

So I was, as is often my custom, making it up as I went along. Once the other shoe dropped, it was almost a relief. I only mean that in the torture-is-the-not-knowing sense -- after being treated so shabbily for so long.

But we returned to work on friday, finished the scene we'd left dangling the day before (we wrapped early the moment the news came down), and somehow mushed through until today. Nathan came up to me that day after and said, "I thought it would be really hard to get through today. But I had so much fun." We all did.

Today was kind of a bummer. I finished shooting my episode yesterday. We shot a gigantic flashback battle scene with Mal and Zoe. It was great fun.

But today was a day for pick-ups and added scenes for episodes nearing completion and some small reshoots. Part of that was pieces of a montage for "Heart Of Gold." Alan, Sean, Summer and Jewel wrapped out yesterday (at the end of the night I had one group shot of the entire cast walking together. I finally got it after they quit goofing off for twenty minutes, breaking the crew up as they did "model runway walks" complete with turns and snaps. I have that on film. I knew it was likely the last time the entire cast would be together in a frame of film. Maybe ever. So that was kind of wonderful. And kind of sucked) Morena, Gina, Ron, Adam and Nathan worked today. Anyway, one of the sets was a small rebuild of a tiny portion of a larger set from the aforementioned "Heart Of Gold." Each character had a shot or two for this montage.

I brought in Gina, we shot her shot, then the AD announced, "that's a "Firefly" wrap for Gina."

When an actor, usually a guest actor, finishes his or her last scene in an episode, that is what happens. The AD (assistant director)announces, "That's an episode wrap for so-and-so."

Doesn't happen with regulars.

But it did today.

Gina got a long and loving round of applause from the crew. She said many warm and wonderful things. We hugged. She left.

Then I brought in Ron. Same thing. "That's a "Firefly" wrap for Ron Glass." Ron couldn't speak at first. He finally said, "I didn't know it could be like this." He thanked everyone and talked about what a special experience this had been for him. We applauded some more. After many hugs, Ron left. The AD called for "the next victim."

I was starting to hate this ugly little set. These unexpectedly generous, grateful actors would come in to it, and that would be all. "That's a "Firefly" wrap for Nathan." Nathan thanked everyone. For about the ten millionth time.

Adam was brought onto the set. He lit a cigar, held up a gun. Smiled. That was the shot. Adam's last shot. "That's a "Firefly" wrap for Adam Baldwin." Adam thanked everyone. He said no one ever let him be funny before. He was grateful for that. He said he was glad everyone seemed to appreciate what a really exceptional experience our time had been. He was glad that it wouldn't have to be regarded as such in retrospect, but that the gratitude was of the present.

Adam and Nathan hung out until Morena shot her scene. Nobody wanted to leave. "That's a "Firefly" wrap for Morena." She said it was the best job she'd ever had. Not that she'd had a lot of jobs, she said. She doesn't want it to be over. None of us do. Then I packed up my things. Shook hands.

I drove off the lot. I got home. Turned on the TV. And they were finally airing the pilot.

That's a "Firefly" wrap.

I think that we're all in agreement that it was a big, big mistake.

The pilot explains so much and truely puts a different spin on Shepard Book as well as the aforementioned Jayne issues. You also see the conflict starting to brew between Wash and Mal that comes to a head in War Stories and the pilot adds significance to River's dancing scene in Safe.
What kind of people are running Fox TV these days? :rolleyes:

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

quote:
Originally posted by jradosh
It's also a shame that this ep. didn't get air time prior to the hospital break-in episode since Jayne's betrayal was foreshadowed in this pilot.

TOTALLY!!!

Plus, I liked learning how smart River is/was. I mean, we all knew there was something about her, but I just kinda figured it was something the Blue Man Group had done to her...

This is one of my favorite shows that's on currently.
HOW can they trash it? *sigh* :(

Posted by: pmyers

Bah...I can't believe I screwed up. I assumed they were re-airing the pilot that I had already seen. It never occured to me that this was an un-aired pilot. Would anybody perhaps have a copy of it they could throw on tape? I'll gladly pay for the trouble.

Posted by: mchasal

What really irked me about this is how much impact the whole story with Simon lost in the pilot. In the pilot, he is built up as this whole mysterious character and eventually as an Alliance spy. Of course, since we've seen the other episodes, we all know who he is and what his story is, so that whole arc is crippled.

I hate Fox,

Mike

Posted by: Mars Rocket

The sad thing is that there are too few episodes for this to make it into repeats or syndication, so this is likely the last we'll ever see of Firefly.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Mars Rocket
The sad thing is that there are too few episodes for this to make it into repeats or syndication, so this is likely the last we'll ever see of Firefly.

Not at all, these days. Brimstone, e.g., shows up all the time on Sci-Fi, with only 13 episodes. And I suspect that Brimstone has a less devoted following than Firefly.

Plus, it's new enough to go to DVD--with the full widescreen picture. So even if this is the end (let us hope Whedon is successful in his pitching efforts), what we have (including the three unaired eps) will probably be with us forever.

Posted by: sschwart

*sigh* Let's pray that someone has the brains to pick up this show and run with it. It's way too good to let it disappear. :(

And the pilot was great. Whoever the FOX exec that wanted to shelve the episode is, he should get canned.

-Steve

Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Not at all, these days. Brimstone, e.g., shows up all the time on Sci-Fi, with only 13 episodes. And I suspect that Brimstone has a less devoted following than Firefly.

Plus, it's new enough to go to DVD--with the full widescreen picture. So even if this is the end (let us hope Whedon is successful in his pitching efforts), what we have (including the three unaired eps) will probably be with us forever.

Yeah, but like many short-lived shows, that simply isn't enough to satisfy. I want to know more about the characters, and I want to see more adventures.

Fawlty Towers was one of the very best shows made ever, but I can't watch it anymore. I've seen the 12 episodes so many times I can recite them by memory. Same would become true of Firefly in very short order. :(

J

Posted by: mwallend

This was easily one of the best Firefly episodes yet.

I'll continue to hope that another network picks up this series before too long.

Posted by: bprothero

pmyers,

quote:
Bah...I can't believe I screwed up. I assumed they were re-airing the pilot that I had already seen. It never occured to me that this was an un-aired pilot. Would anybody perhaps have a copy of it they could throw on tape? I'll gladly pay for the trouble.

I have the episode saved as VCD complaint MPEG if you are interested. I can share it through Kazaa or Direct Connect or send you a couple VCDs if you like.

Brian

Posted by: Cathy/Vik

I have all the eps except 1 on tape. :D

Posted by: DLiquid

"Serenity" was definitely one of the best episodes yet, and with all the action, suspense, and awesome special effects is IMO way more mainstream-friendly than some of the other episodes. I think this episode would have hooked a lot of viewers right away, rather than scaring them off as the train robbery episode probably did.

After watching this episode, I was convinced this couldn't have been the pilot that Fox chose not to air. After reading this thread, and finding out that it was, I'm in shock. I would rank "Serenity" as one of the best sci-fi TV show episodes of the year (along with about four Farscape episodes showing Dec. 24th on the Sci Fi channel ;)).

Posted by: pmyers

http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/TV/...reut/index.html

Posted by: cancermatt

Doh! I was outta town, away from the tivo, headed to parents, so I missed the pilot. Guess I'll catch it on kazaa.

My friend lurks on both fox and upn message boards and the rumor is UPN WILL PICK UP FIREFLY!

Course, I'll believe it when I see it.

Posted by: David Platt

quote:
Originally posted by cancermatt

My friend lurks on both fox and upn message boards and the rumor is UPN WILL PICK UP FIREFLY!

Posted by: Teammate

There were a few moments in this show that would have been great to have seen before seeing all the other episodes.

Mal kissing his cross in the Bunker scene, and betrayed look when his supporting air strike never comes.

The Doc seemed a much stronger, and to me interesting character than he seems to have evolved to later.

Book crying and doubts at the end of the show.

Jayne's admission up front that its all about money.

Good episode, good show, bad luck.

Posted by: JYoung

I think that showing the Battle of Serenity Valley was a good move as it really shows us how Mal became the way that he is.
His look of stunned betrayal while the soldier gets shot next to him says it all.

I wonder if those red shirts that the Rebels wore had anything to do with their losing... :D

Posted by: dlperki

I have nothing original to add, you've all summed up my frustrations very well. Okay, I'll say it anyway: Fox execs are morons! What kind of numbers did they hope to generate on Friday night? Firefly and Joss Whedon rock! My four-year old grandson would have had the sense to air this pilot as THE PILOT!

I know Fox will pull out all the stops with a replacement. Probably something intellectually stimulating like When Animals Attack Bachelor Cop Idols.

Since they air 24 on FX (yea I know Fox owns it too) I am officially boycotting the network from now on.

Good luck UPN!

Posted by: mwhip

Since the big rumor for this show is to go to UPN, I found the name of my local programing director for UPN and voiced my support for the show.

Most of the e-mail address' can be found on UPN's site, or from a national directory:

http://www.paramountstations.com

Posted by: bdowell

quote:
Originally posted by dlperki
I have nothing original to add, you've all summed up my frustrations very well. Okay, I'll say it anyway: Fox execs are morons! What kind of numbers did they hope to generate on Friday night? Firefly and Joss Whedon rock! My four-year old grandson would have had the sense to air this pilot as THE PILOT!

I know Fox will pull out all the stops with a replacement. Probably something intellectually stimulating like When Animals Attack Bachelor Cop Idols.

Since they air 24 on FX (yea I know Fox owns it too) I am officially boycotting the network from now on.

Good luck UPN!

I'd like to see the monkeys that program Fox suggest putting 'The Next American Idol' over in that death sentence of a nite/time slot.

Perhaps they'd figure out that Friday nite is never gonna return numbers for them, no matter what they put there.

I know someone mentioned earlier some of the numbers (or lack there of) for Firefly, but really - what numbers are any of the Friday night programs -- on any of the networks -- returning?

Seeing the numbers in context might make more sense, but personally, I can't even tell you what airs on ABC, CBS, NBC, UPN or WB on Friday nite.

Saturday night isn't much better. What used to be HBO's big premiere night has been majorly disappointing, and again, the networks have only MAD TV or Saturday Night Live that seem worth tuning into.

Posted by: murgatroyd

quote:
from the CNN article
http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/TV/...reut/index.html

"It's gratifying that so many fans are speaking up for these shows," said one network executive. "But where were they in October?"

:mad: :mad: :mad:

We were watching the damn show!

We're not a Nielsen family, so we don't get counted. How else are we supposed to tell the networks what we like except by writing in? If there's a better way, I'd love to hear about it.

Jan

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by dlperki

I know Fox will pull out all the stops with a replacement. Probably something intellectually stimulating like When Animals Attack Bachelor Cop Idols.

As far as I know, Fastlane is the slated replacement for Firefly in the Friday time slot.
I also heard on the radio that they are already preparing a spicy scene with Tiffani Theissen and guest star Jaime Pressley in a hot tub.... :rolleyes:

Posted by: stevel

quote:
Originally posted by murgatroyd
We were watching the damn show!

We're not a Nielsen family, so we don't get counted. How else are we supposed to tell the networks what we like except by writing in? If there's a better way, I'd love to hear about it.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...&threadid=78834

Posted by: murgatroyd

Yeah, Steve, TiVo can tell the networks what we are watching via TiVo, but will they listen? Especially when they will undoubtedly have the impression that none of us watch commercials?

We don't count because our info isn't presented in terms of the demographic stuff they want. We really won't count if they can't tell the advertisers we are watching their ads.

Jan

Posted by: stevel

Well, you did ask if there was a better way. I am as frustrated as you are here - TV schedules are filled with shows I am not interested in, and the few that come on that I do like, seem to get cancelled immediately.

A local newspaper columnist has, on a couple occasions, written that Firefly is "the best show you're not watching". (She's a TiVo user, too...) Maybe what we need is to get more TiVos out there, so the quality of network programming will improve? :confused:

Posted by: Family

I understand the anger at Fox and agree that they were stupid not to air the pilot first, but I can't figure boycotting the network over these decisions.

Fact: The ratings for Firefly were horrible... worst of any of their shows by far.
Fact: Friday nites are poor for viewing, but John Doe gained a considerable audience after Firefly ended.

Are people shocked that this is a money decision? Does anyone think that every network isn't looking for good ratings/demographics that will produce a profitable show? What do you think... that these shows are telecasted strictly for your convience?

Firefly did not produce.... pure and simple. You can say that Fox mishandled Firefly and I agree there are plenty of valid complaints, but there are very few shows that are capable of building an audience. Quite frankly, despite it being a good program... I agree with Fox that Firefly is not the type of show that will ever have mass appeal. The western/scifi combo IMO will never catch on with a broad audience because both styles attract small, yet OPPOSITE viewers. You might disagree, but based on the horrific ratings (with no improvement over the few weeks) Fox didn't believe it would happen either. It's Fox's decision to make because it's going to cost them to bet more on the show... it wouldn't cost you anything.

Fox is a network that broadcasts. Firefly is the type of show that needs someone who narrowcasts. Scifi/UPN are the outlets who should produce this type of show because they are looking for a nitch audience. At least Fox took the the risk of doing something different like Firefly. You won't see the big three considering a show like this. Firefly & Fox was just a bad fit. Let's see if one of the other outlets pick this quality show up because that's really where Firefly belongs.

Posted by: Worf

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Well, you did ask if there was a better way. I am as frustrated as you are here - TV schedules are filled with shows I am not interested in, and the few that come on that I do like, seem to get cancelled immediately.

Are we the same person? It seems I have the same problem with my TV! The only shows I find that I do watch that don't get cancelled are because they're of 'cult' status - Enterprise, etc.

As for lousy ratings, well, a better timeslot would help. Hardly anyone catches Friday primetime... except people with TiVos and those who can set a VCR (and both don't count by Neilson). Damn. I wish I could have those TiVo votes from those who opt-out of TiVo's data collection.

Posted by: murgatroyd

quote:
Originally posted by Family
Are people shocked that this is a money decision? Does anyone think that every network isn't looking for good ratings/demographics that will produce a profitable show? What do you think... that these shows are telecasted strictly for your convience?

Fox is a network that broadcasts. Firefly is the type of show that needs someone who narrowcasts.

All that may be, but what Fox did reminds me of what happens way too often in my line of business (bookselling). When the early volumes in a trilogy have been out of print for a long time, and the publisher starts it up again by printing the third volume while the first two books are still out of print, it automatically limits the readership of the new volume to the people who have already read the first two books.

Only a very, very small group of readers are ever going to be adventurous enough to jump in at the middle of the story and then catch up later when volume 1 and 2 are available. Most new readers are NOT going to want to read volume three before they have volumes one and two in hand.

What happened to Firefly was even worse -- they published book three before ANYONE had seen volumes one and two. It was just like a publisher telling Joss 'hey, we're not going to publish your first 2 volumes so you'd better write one of those whatchamacallits, a synopsis, to get the reader up to date'. So instead of the episode which was carefully crafted to introduce us to the characters, we got something much more compressed that wasn't as good. And then they wonder why nobody watched?

There were some of us who knew Joss' prior work, and were willing to give the show a chance. We were the very small subset of consumers who were willing to buy the show no matter what and hold on until volumes 1 and 2 came out. But most viewers wouldn't read industry gossip, wouldn't know that they weren't getting the real opening of the story -- they didn't know they were being thrown in at the deep end, so they watched and said, "hey, this show sucks".

I'm sure the accountants could show me numbers that would prove it is not cost-effective to republish volumes 1 and 2 first. That doesn't change the fact that without volumes 1 & 2 it is going to be damned hard to sell volume three. Similarly, the network may have had its reasons for shooting the show in the foot, but it doesn't negate the fact that they didn't do as good a job at selling it that they could have. They are lousy salesmen and they only have themselves to blame for lousy ratings.

Jan

Posted by: AJRitz

And at least FOX showed the John Doe episodes in order - so that each episode pretty much makes sense after the previous one. FOX jumbled the Firefly episode order horribly - especially with the delay of the pilot movie - which destroyed the continuity of the show and made it more difficult to "hook" a casual viewer who might have their interest piqued at one episode and decide to tune in a second time - only to be confused because of the continuity problems and surf on to something else.

Posted by: bdowell

quote:
Originally posted by Family
I understand the anger at Fox and agree that they were stupid not to air the pilot first, but I can't figure boycotting the network over these decisions.

Fact: The ratings for Firefly were horrible... worst of any of their shows by far.
Fact: Friday nites are poor for viewing, but John Doe gained a considerable audience after Firefly ended.

Considerering the lack of quality on the rest of the Fox schedule, and the fact that Fox only broadcasts on the East coast in the 8 - 10pm time slots, it's not that difficult to be 'boycotting' Fox 90% of the time.

My list of Fox shows to watch (which is probably more than most):

Simpsons
King of the Hill
Malcolm in the Middle
Andy Richter
70s Show
24

The rest of the week, they may as well not exist (at least now that the Redskins season is over, and even that wasn't drawing my attention this year).
Of the shows listed above, if I missed any of them, I wouldn't cry over it.

I used to watch Titus, before it was left floundering in scheduling hiatus hell, and liked Grounded for Life, and The Family Guy. First season of Dark Angel was actually pretty good, it got weird, then actually started to get better, before it was cast aside.

Cops? Who cares, it's well past useful.

American Idol - why would anyone watch it?

Joe Millionaire - they've already spoiled it's secret, why watch?

Does Fox actually show something on Monday nites?

Bernie Mac - decent show, and if it's on I might laugh at it, but not worth going out of my way for it.

Wednesday nites, does Fox have anything airing there?

Thursdays?

Fridays has John Doe, which I set up an SP for at the beginning of the year, but just never sat down and got into.

With the loss of Firefly, I have no reason to pay attention to Friday nite TV.

Fast Lane? Yeah, I might have watched it for mindless entertainment (Tiffany Amber Thiesen is easy on the eyes), but that's being moved to the Death timeslot, so Fridays will really be down the crapper.

John Doe's ratings have yet to really be seen with these new 'moves' in place.

Much of the Fox schedule was pre-empted by Baseball playoffs, then movies and/or specials designed to boost numbers during the ratiings season.

quote:
Originally posted by Family
Are people shocked that this is a money decision? Does anyone think that every network isn't looking for good ratings/demographics that will produce a profitable show? What do you think... that these shows are telecasted strictly for your convience?

Firefly did not produce.... pure and simple. You can say that Fox mishandled Firefly and I agree there are plenty of valid complaints, but there are very few shows that are capable of building an audience. Quite frankly, despite it being a good program... I agree with Fox that Firefly is not the type of show that will ever have mass appeal. The western/scifi combo IMO will never catch on with a broad audience because both styles attract small, yet OPPOSITE viewers. You might disagree, but based on the horrific ratings (with no improvement over the few weeks) Fox didn't believe it would happen either. It's Fox's decision to make because it's going to cost them to bet more on the show... it wouldn't cost you anything.

Fox is a network that broadcasts. Firefly is the type of show that needs someone who narrowcasts. Scifi/UPN are the outlets who should produce this type of show because they are looking for a nitch audience. At least Fox took the the risk of doing something different like Firefly. You won't see the big three considering a show like this. Firefly & Fox was just a bad fit. Let's see if one of the other outlets pick this quality show up because that's really where Firefly belongs.

Personally, I rooted much more for Fox, and went out of my way much more to catch stuff on there, back when Fox COUNTER PROGRAMMED.

When Fox was David, taking on the bigger Network Goliaths (before they pulled the bold move and over bid to steal the NFL from CBS), they took more risks, aired more edgy programming and STUCK WITH IT LONGER.

Married with Children was a cast off from ANOTHER NETWORK.

People originally thought it would never last. It did because Fox stuck with it.

Fox almost killed off THE SIMPSONS by moving it to directly compete against COSBY on NBC, even though THEY (FOX) OWNED SUNDAY NITES BEFORE DOING THAT.

They basically nuked the X-Files (not that I was a fan of it) by moving it from Sunday nites to Friday nites.

Fox just doesn't get it any more.

They try shows for short periods of time and then decide they're not worth it, rather than going through again what they did with 24 to build a hit. Even that wasn't a given. They had all the critical buzz in the world, and couldn't decide if they wanted to keep going with re-purposed broadcasts to let the audience get into that show.

Yes, it's a dollar and sense move, but personally, if the idiots that are running Fox worked for me, I'd fire the lot of them.

They're not delivering, and haven't for a while.

And when they start to, they decide too quickly to toss in the towel.

Am I saying that Firefly would ever have good numbers - not necessarily. It is a niche show to some extent and was taking time to build it's audience. Painfully slowly in fact. Airing episodes out of order and out of context lost a good bit of the audience right away. Those that stuck it out learned it was a good show, and would have much better from the start if Fox hadn't meddled with it.

I hope Firefly 'becomes the next JAG' - moved to another network where it starts kicking the butt-end of the network that tossed it aside.

I'd laugh like the proverbial Hyenna if it was moved to UPN on Friday nights (or WB for that matter) and saw it's numbers severely TROUNCE any and all programming on Fox for that night. That would be poetic justice.

And just to follow up - you are right in saying that Fox did take a chance on this show, and they should get credit for it, but unfortunately the demerits for not recognizing the lack of an available audience on the night they targeted, and the mishandling of the episode airing order took that attaboy away.

Posted by: ClutchBrake

I had a dream last night that CBS picked up Firefly. Why CBS, I have no idea. The only show I watch on CBS is CSI: LV.
A show has to be pretty good for me to dream that someone else picked it up. Alas, my dreams never come true.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by bdowell
They basically nuked the X-Files (not that I was a fan of it) by moving it from Sunday nites to Friday nites.

Um...

They moved it FROM Friday TO Sunday, and that's when it really took off in the ratings...

Posted by: bdowell

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Um...

They moved it FROM Friday TO Sunday, and that's when it really took off in the ratings...

MG: not sure I remember the history entirely, but IIRC at one point it (X-Files) was on Fridays, was moved to Sundays, lived there (and grew to flourish) for some time, was moved to Fridays again (near the end of it's run) and basically floundered away it's final couple of seasons.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

No, it was on Sunday for the last several years.

It ended opposite Sporanos, L&O CI, and Alias, which irked me greatly.

There was a rumor that first Dark Angel, then Firefly, was going to replace X-Files on Sunday; maybe that's the source of confusion.

Posted by: rexdart

I have to throw in my lot here as well.

I was admittedly not a big fan of the show though I was trying mightily. Some of the anachronisms just really irked me and did nothing for the story. Admittedly, they didn't hurt it either so no biggie.

Funny, the one thing that drove me nuts was the randomly placed revolvers, I know that is small and trite but its dumb, period. Had no problem with the sets. The clothes I liked, love the rough and ready appearance for an outland setting. I don't find them anachronistic because the people I grew up with in Texas were wearing clothes not that far removed from what people wore 166 years earlier during the revolution. And I dearly loved the ship, not since the millenium falcon has a ship so intentionally departed from the regimented spit-shined craft of the Star Trek universe (ok, yeah, there have probably been plenty since, but I stand by the parallel.)

Ok, enough babbling....

Serenity was awesome, wheras before I was ambivalent and could live either way, now I join the crowd of angry folks. We cannot be the only ones who see this now, the show will live.

Funny thing, since my upgrade now allows me to "sit" on shows for a very long time, I now have 4 untouched episodes waiting for me now that I can watch straight from the pilot. Gotta stay away from those spoilers!

Posted by: TreborPugly

One thing I noticed about the pilot is that it does contain the garbage indicating that they are in one big solar system with teraformed moons, rather than flying around the galaxy. Pilots often have some of the details screwy compared to how the series actually turns out, but they could have fixed this one since the pilot aired so late.

I really like Firefly, and as some people have pointed out, they have some technical stuff well done, like no sound in vacuum. But I also like my Science Fiction to have a pretty good foundation in real science (ie, not like Star Trek!), so I want to know what the deal is on this galaxy vs solar system business. The concept of 100 planetary bodies (moons or planets) in one solar system all supporting human life is just ridiculous, given the added detail of "inner" and "outer" worlds. If they do manage to pull this show out of the dumper, I hope they fix up the details!

Treb.

Posted by: stevel

Well, as I see it, if you want the show to be interesting and have a variety of new places, your choice is to make up a region with lots of places nearby, or equip your spaceships with some sort of "warp drive" (and then try to explain how humanity found all these new planets in so short a time.)

The system of planets/moons thing doesn't bother me at all - I recognize it as necessary to keep the show from being deathly dull, though it does pay not to think too hard about it.

Oh, if you want scientific accuracy - what's the story with Serenity pulling a "Crazy Ivan"? Gimme a break!

Posted by: johnjohn

Must've just watched "Hunt for the Red October."

Posted by: DanT

I look at the "Crazy Ivan" bit as an example of how something can get placed into the common lexicon and remain there for hundreds of years. Kind of like how we still use "rule of thumb" even though that's a centuries-old saying that nobody seems to know the origin of. It wasn't the old wife-beating rule, as some claim. That has been pretty well debunked here and here, among many other places. Other explanations include brewers sticking their thumb in a batch of beer to measure its temperature, and tailors measuring the thumb and applying rules/approximations to the other body parts (wrists, waists, etc.) or simply the approximation that the distance from the thumb joint to the tip is approximately 1 inch.

I won't be surprised if "Use the Force" is still in common use in 100 years. So I'm not surprised that they'd call the maneuver a "Crazy Ivan" on Firefly, either. Sure, it's more of an inside joke for those of us who've seen/read The Hunt for Red October, but at least IMHO it's plausible for the term to still be around in the future.

Posted by: murgatroyd

Okay, here's a question I'd like to throw out for those of you have pulled the pilot episode off the net.

I talked to someone on New Year's Day who has some kind of connection to the industry (not sure exactly what) and who claimed to have seen the pilot in its pre-fix-up state. Her claim was that the original was horrible.

If you have seen both, what do you think? How much got changed? I've heard the battle sequence was added, but what else?

I still don't understand the reasoning at Fox for all this -- it seems as if they had run the episode "Serenity" which we saw, followed by the other episodes, and as a mid-season replacement, rather than launching it at the beginning of a season, it would now be on solid ground. Look at Buffy, for crying out loud, that started out as a mid-season replacement and we can all see what happened there.

Jan

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I heard that Fox saw the pilot, asked for changes (including recasting the Space Hooker, who used to be Rbecca Gayheart)...and then never looked at the revised edition. The version that aired was the revised edition with the war scene at the beginning added, and a couple of dialogue changes.

Posted by: stormsweeper

The final episode is very close to the early crappy version I downloaded (that has Morena, not Rebecca). The battle scene is new, plus the "Cry baby" gambit. I think that was added in to escape the "Correllian Cruiser" stigma of the fast smuggling ship.

Posted by: Imageek2

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
I look at the "Crazy Ivan" bit as an example of how something can get placed into the common lexicon and remain there for hundreds of years. Kind of like how we still use "rule of thumb" even though that's a centuries-old saying that nobody seems to know the origin of.

I always assumed that "rule of thumb" came from the practice of artists holding a brush at eye level and placing the thumb on the brush, thus measuring a part of the subject for transferring onto the canvas in the correct proportions. Yes, artists really do that, and no, they are not really just painting their own thumb. :)

Posted by: stevel

I wasn't asking about the use of the term "Crazy Ivan", but rather the maneuver itself and the way it was implemented on Serenity. If you think for a moment about the physics involved, it's ridiculous!

Oh, and the explanation I have read most often for "rule of thumb" is that it specified how thick a stick could be that a husband used to beat his wife. I take this with a shaker of salt, but stranger things have happened...

Posted by: stormsweeper

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
I wasn't asking about the use of the term "Crazy Ivan", but rather the maneuver itself and the way it was implemented on Serenity. If you think for a moment about the physics involved, it's ridiculous!

That or those gimballs on the side engines are really really strong.

Posted by: MarkofT

They only used the atmosphereic thrusters to spin the ship. Then they hit the main space engine which probably has a whole lot more power then the thrusters do.

Posted by: Hunter Green

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Oh, and the explanation I have read most often for "rule of thumb" is that it specified how thick a stick could be that a husband used to beat his wife. I take this with a shaker of salt, but stranger things have happened...

That's the very one debunked in the links in that original post.

Posted by: twm01

OK, I know its a long shot, but there are a couople of things that may help save the show, see the following sites:

Firefly: Immediate Assistance
Save Firefly

I am crossing my fingers and hoping for a miracle, and doing if doing this little bit helps, I am all for it.

Take care,

Tom

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
I wasn't asking about the use of the term "Crazy Ivan", but rather the maneuver itself and the way it was implemented on Serenity. If you think for a moment about the physics involved, it's ridiculous!

they're on a spaceship, doc... ;)

Posted by: spelcheker

I can forgive a crazy Ivan easier than all those miracle particles that make all plots possible on Enterprise.

http://www.midwinter.com/~koreth/particles/