TiVo Community Forums Archives - Here comes HDTV TiVo!

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Here comes HDTV TiVo!
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: jasonl99

Found this at dbsforums.com (emphasis mine):

quote:
DirecTV has indicated that it will hold a CES press conference Thursday to discuss

Local Channel Launches
New DIRECTV DVR Products
HDTV Programming
First Quarter Retail Promotion

Stay tuned. Answers to many questions will be available soon. Gary Merson of "The Perfect Vision" reports that a HDTV Tivo will be among the new DirecTV DVR products launched.

Posted by: BrettStah

Wow... the big question is, will it allow you to record OTA HDTV signals too?

Posted by: joker454

quote:
Originally posted by jasonl99
Found this at dbsforums.com (emphasis mine):

Sweet, looks like 2003 will be the year I finally get a HDTV!

Posted by: jjaromin

Please, please, please, let it be true.

(damn I hate when I get my hopes up.....):)

Posted by: grecorj

I'm not getting my hopes up yet. One can just imagine:

And the new product from HNS is....a Wink-enabled DTiVo! <audible groans>

Posted by: BrettStah

Was this too mean?
HDTV ReplayTV

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Was this too mean?
HDTV ReplayTV

Hahaha. Yes. Hahahaha. Oh, stop laughing. Hahahaha. :D :D

Posted by: maharg18

Mmmmm...I just never get over hearing HDTV and Tivo in the same sentence!! :D

Posted by: brucestorey

If this happens, I will trash my cable and put a dish on the roof.

Posted by: 12monkeys

I knew there was a reason why I have been waiting to get a HDTV receiver for DirecTV. :D

I sure hope this rumor is true...

Posted by: Francesco

:D BrettStah is my new online hero. Pure Evil. Comic Genius!

"Thank God I wore my corset, becauseI think my sides have split." - Edmund Blackadder

Posted by: etsolow

Holy Jebus! Where do I sign up?? :D

Posted by: SteakMan

I wonder... Are standard HDTV receivers more expensive because of the components, or because that is what HDTV owners will pay? What will the HDTV TiVo cost?

-SteakMan-

Posted by: BrettStah

The components currently cost a lot more, and it'll need BIG drives.

Posted by: alsays

I just got this one and signed up for lifetime service. I'd hate to have to turn around and buy a whole new machine.

Posted by: BrettStah

No, you won't have to. If you want to view HDTV content, you'll need a TV that is HDTV compatible, and an HDTV set-top box, which this new DirecTivo would be.

Posted by: samo

quote:
No, you won't have to.

Yes, he does. He has to buy a new machine and pay monthly fees because DTV doesn't offer lifetime sub anymore. If he was able to get lifetime that means he has SA unit.
But it is all academic. Even if rumor is not just a rumor, it would take a long time before hardware actually becomes available. If past experience is any indication - minimum a year (it took more than year to activate second tuner on DTiVo 1 and just as long for DTiVo 2 to become available). There is no demo model available yet and if any DTV announcement is going to be made it will be to counter DishPVR 921 introduction (and win of Best of Innovation at CES).

Posted by: BrettStah

If DirecTV releases an HDTV PVR, no one will have to buy it. Current models (and standalone ones for that matter) will continue to function just fine. That was my point...

Posted by: stevel

Yawn. Old news... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...5867#post895867 :D

Posted by: GScott

quote:
Originally posted by samo
Yes, he does. He has to buy a new machine and pay monthly fees because DTV doesn't offer lifetime sub anymore. If he was able to get lifetime that means he has SA unit.
But it is all academic. Even if rumor is not just a rumor, it would take a long time before hardware actually becomes available. If past experience is any indication - minimum a year (it took more than year to activate second tuner on DTiVo 1 and just as long for DTiVo 2 to become available). There is no demo model available yet and if any DTV announcement is going to be made it will be to counter DishPVR 921 introduction (and win of Best of Innovation at CES).

The DirecTV DVR fee is much cheaper than the regular TiVo fee. It's only $4.95 a month and it covers all your DirecTivos.

Also, as indicated in the other referenced thread it was reported in the current issue of "The Perfect Vision" DirecTV will not only announce a HD-DirecTivo but will demonstrate it at CES with shipment sometime in 2003.

Posted by: randym431

May not be HD hardware. For now, HDTV programming may be the clue. Maybe the'll add Discovery HD. Maybe THATS the news?

Posted by: Gregd33

I this is an HD recorder, I will purchase one ASAP IF:

1) It can record OTA HD
2) It can record Regular DirecTV
3) It can record HD DirecTV
4) It can record at least 10 hours of HD content, OR allow us to add drives. This means have the 2nd bay ready like in the series 1 TiVo.

We will have to wait and see what the announcement is I suppose.

Posted by: Marco

For once I agree with samo. IF it's announced, it won't ship before December.

But I'd drool ...

Posted by: SteveHoltam

This would so freaking cool!!!! Of course it would make my $750 HD receiver and my $200 Directivo worthless to ME. All in one unit baby. Please Hughes, please Tivo, please whoever I have to beg, I want this unit and I have CASH!!!!

Steve

Posted by: andyf

I predict a sudden upsurge in beta applications being submitted over the next week. :):)

Posted by: feldon23

quote:
I this is an HD recorder, I will purchase one ASAP IF:

1) It can record OTA HD
2) It can record Regular DirecTV
3) It can record HD DirecTV
4) It can record at least 10 hours of HD content, OR allow us to add drives. This means have the 2nd bay ready like in the series 1 TiVo.

There's no question on #2 and #3.

I'd be shocked if it didn't do #1 cause it's not expensive to add (no encoder chips) and DirecTV can't offer HD locals.

As for #4, a 120GB drive will give you ~20 hours.

My big question is will it have any DVI/HDCP/Firewire crap that prevents me from getting full resolution on the Component output?

Posted by: turls

You're not serious, are you? Every new gen DirecTV receiver has DVI/HDCP--it would make no sense for this box to be any different.

And I realize you are probably just venting--I know you know that the inclusion of those interfaces does not necessarily mean downrezzing is inevitable.

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
My big question is will it have any DVI/HDCP/Firewire crap that prevents me from getting full resolution on the Component output?

Posted by: mishagray

quote:
Originally posted by turls
You're not serious, are you? Every new gen DirecTV receiver has DVI/HDCP--it would make no sense for this box to be any different.

And I realize you are probably just venting--I know you know that the inclusion of those interfaces does not necessarily mean downrezzing is inevitable.

DirecTV has now agreed to allow Firewire ports on their receivers. This will allow very good integration with D-VHS records (or even future "tunerless" PVR devices - like your PC!)

Posted by: TechDreamer

Vaporware...

Posted by: rogo

13 hours, maybe 14 of HD at 120GB.

Mark

Posted by: bobofoosh

This would be the best thing ever if true....best.....thing.....ever

Posted by: turls

I've read that, but have seen no official confirmation. And I think it would be less likely for this to be an option on DVR's anyway, although with the competition, maybe not.

quote:
Originally posted by mishagray
DirecTV has now agreed to allow Firewire ports on their receivers. This will allow very good integration with D-VHS records (or even future "tunerless" PVR devices - like your PC!)

Posted by: grecorj

TiVo CEO Mike Ramsey seems to have confirmed the HDTV TiVo rumor.

Now we just have to wait about 7 hrs for the deets. :D

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by grecorj
TiVo CEO Mike Ramsey seems to have confirmed the HDTV TiVo rumor.

Now we just have to wait about 7 hrs for the deets. :D

NICE FIND! :D

From the article...

quote:

TiVo announced a service that would allow the recording of high-definition television programs in that format, as opposed to being recorded in analog.

``HDTV has arrived and our consumer electronics partners have been eager to incorporate a TiVo HDTV DVR into their digital receivers,'' Ramsey said.

Posted by: jeffshome

Cross post...

quote:
Dish Network announces HD PVR

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=210885

quote:
The DishPVR 921 satellite TV receiver is a groundbreaking Personal Video Recording product with the ability to record both standard and high definition programming. Using a massive 250 gigabyte hard disk drive, DishPVR 921 is capable of recording up to 40 hours of high-definition programming, up to 250 hours standard definition programming, or any combination of the two. Other advanced capabilities include the ability to record two programs at the same time while watching a third pre-recorded program, and picture-in-picture capabilities on any TV. Additional features include Caller ID, UHF/IR remote control for use between walls or cabinets, front panel jacks for future use with still or video cameras for capturing images to attach to e-mail, and additional USB connections for future interface with peripheral devices like printers, cameras, CD writers, etc. Standard functions include V-chip type technology for parental controls and an optical Dolby Digital output.

Posted by: wco81

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
There's no question on #2 and #3.

I'd be shocked if it didn't do #1 cause it's not expensive to add (no encoder chips) and DirecTV can't offer HD locals.

My big question is will it have any DVI/HDCP/Firewire crap that prevents me from getting full resolution on the Component output?

The bigger question is, will you be able to record the HD feed of the Sopranos and then be able to archive it to DVDR, which should get very cheap over this year?

HBO makes a lot of money on those Sopranos DVD box sets. Will they flip the do not copy flag? They may let you record once for timeshifting purposes. But there's already a lot of file sharing of Sopranos captures going on. Of course, HDTV recordings of the Sopranos would be too large to easily download or fileshare but some people will still do it.

But HBO's greater concern has to be that their home video sales of their shows could be affected. And of course, it's not just HBO as all TV shows are getting the DVD treatment these days. Yet, most of the discussion about copy protection revolves around premium content or PPV content. Of course, the MPAA is also pushing for the broadcast flag so they don't want you sharing or archiving standard network fare like CSI (it may be in HDTV but who's going to waste bandwith or plastic to share/download or archive that crap?).

Posted by: grecorj

quote:
Originally posted by wco81
The bigger question is, will you be able to record the HD feed of the Sopranos and then be able to archive it to DVDR, which should get very cheap over this year?

HBO makes a lot of money on those Sopranos DVD box sets. Will they flip the do not copy flag?

Hollywood had the same reservations about all new recording media.

When Beta/VHS came out, Hollywood cried foul. What did VHS do? Put tons more money in Hollywoods pockets.

Even though people have had good quality VCRs and cable tv for years, sales of prerecorded VHS movies hasn't been hurt at all.

Sure, DVD recorders will make a cleaner copy.

But not everyone is willing to take the time to do it. Much easier to spend the cash on a prerecorded box set. Offers advantages over home recording: packaging, "extras", convenience, quality.

DVD prices have been falling for years. Eventually, they'll be so cheap that you won't even bother renting them anymore. Why bother messing with recording your own copy of "Fletch" when you can buy it for $6.95 at Tower Records?

And lower prices mean no incentive for pirates. Why buy a questionable pirated copy of a movie when you get the real deal for the same price?

Posted by: wco81

But you see, they don't price it low enough to discourage piracy. The Sopranos are $100 per season SRP -- you can get them for about $60 online tho.

Yes Hollywood should know better but they're always going to resist changing their lucrative business models.

BTW, supposely we'll have HD-DVD, including Blue-Ray which is suppose to be a recordable format, next year. Will the HDTV Tivo you buy now be able to archive to such devices? Most people won't bother archiving but the early adopters who'd buy HDTV Tivos, or HDTV equipment in general are more likely to archive.

Posted by: feldon23

So much misinformation/confusion about HD. :( Gah! I must write a FAQ.

120GB = ~20 hours of HDTV programs, not 14.

Posted by: Guyy

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
So much misinformation/confusion about HD. :( Gah! I must write a FAQ.

120GB = ~20 hours of HDTV programs, not 14.

Sounds like a plan! :)

Now would recording 1080i and 720p yield different recording times? I would guess recording a 720p feed you would get more hours. Would this be so?

Posted by: T-Wolves

quote:
Originally posted by grecorj
... DVD prices have been falling for years. ...

I thought DVD prices have been rising. A few years ago, I'd never spend more than $10 for a new release DVD. Now, most of them come out at $18 or more, and bargains ($10 or less) are very hard to find. It seems to me that now that there is a solid base of DVD players out there, they no longer have to provide as much incentive to get people to buy the DVDs, so the prices are going up.

Posted by: Dajad

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
So much misinformation/confusion about HD. :( Gah! I must write a FAQ.

120GB = ~20 hours of HDTV programs, not 14.

The standard accepted measure has been that one hour of true HDTV would take up about 9 gigs. So, that works out to about 14 hours on a 120 gig hd

Now, if you mean to say that NOT every show recorded on an HDTiVo will be 1080i or 720p and the real amount of space will be about 20 plus hours of shows for the average user, then I'd agree with you.

Or do you know something we don't ... such as TiVo/DirecTV using MPeg4 instead of MPeg2 or some other compression tech to be used.

...Dale

Posted by: feldon23

quote:
Dajad said:
The standard accepted measure has been that one hour of true HDTV would take up about 9 gigs. So, that works out to about 14 hours on a 120 gig hd

Now, if you mean to say that NOT every show recorded on an HDTiVo will be 1080i or 720p and the real amount of space will be about 20 plus hours of shows for the average user, then I'd agree with you.

Or do you know something we don't ... such as TiVo/DirecTV using MPeg4 instead of MPeg2 or some other compression tech to be used.

Why is the standard accepted measure of HDTV 9GB per hour? Where's the math for this? To my knowledge (which could be wrong), the actual video/audio signal of true HDTV is typically 19Mbps.

quote:
Does 720p take up less space than 1080i?

Not significantly so, no.

1080i is 1920 x 1080 x 30 interlaced frames per second (60 fields)
62,208,000 pixels per second*

720p is 1280 x 720 x 60 frames per second (no interlace)
55,296,000 pixels per second

Actually at one time, people were thinking of encoding High Def movies at 1280 x 720 x 24 frames per second (since film is 24fps). This is only:
22,118,400 pixels per second, or about double that of a regular DVD.

Why? Because with some slight modifications, you could make a DVD player that plays back a 720p24 movie off an ordinary DVD disc. Granted this would be a band-aid, but we would have had High Def movie DVDs 2 years ago! Of course there wouldn't be a lot of space for extras, but you could fit a 2 hour movie on one dual-layer side of a DVD this way. This got scrapped and they are introducing real HD-DVD players in the next year or two using either Sony's Blu-Ray standard (you really didn't think Sony would follow the standard, did you?) or everyone else's blue laser standard.

To my knowledge (which could be wrong):

Sony's Blu-Ray standard requires entirely new equipment to duplicate DVDs, costing millions to retrofit existing DVD factories. And Blu-Ray DVD players will need 2 read heads to play Blu-Ray and current standard def DVDs.

The DVD consortium (who invented DVD)'s blue laser standard can be mass-produced on the existing DVD duplication equipment with slight modifications. And it's close enough to the existing red laser DVD standard that a single playback head will play both, reducing the cost of DVD players.

The only good thing about the Sony standard is the extra capacity. Plenty of room for 1080p DVDs, if they ever make TVs that can play them back. :)

*1920x1080 is technically 540p. How? It's 30 discrete frames, but first the odd rows, then the even rows, taken at 1/60th of a second intervals.

Posted by: mishagray

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
The standard accepted measure has been that one hour of true HDTV would take up about 9 gigs. So, that works out to about 14 hours on a 120 gig hd

Now, if you mean to say that NOT every show recorded on an HDTiVo will be 1080i or 720p and the real amount of space will be about 20 plus hours of shows for the average user, then I'd agree with you.

Or do you know something we don't ... such as TiVo/DirecTV using MPeg4 instead of MPeg2 or some other compression tech to be used.

...Dale

I HIGHLY doubt that a Tivo/DirecTV box will use Mpeg4. The primary reason is that there is NO COST efficient solution for real-time MPEG4 encoding. It MIGHT be able to be done at the head-end before satellite transmission, but that would break backward compatibility with existing HDTV receivers. Most good MPEG4 encoders used by PC owners is a multi-pass, NON-REALTIME algortihms (takes 8 hours to compress a 2 hour movie.).

Even IF they considered doing real-time MPEG4 encoding, you would also need to guarantee that the resulting picture would be artifact free. Its basically IMPOSSIBLE to real-time video encoding in either MPEG2 or MPEG4 without some video artifacts. Just watch the HBO "White Noise" promo on DirecTV and you will see tons of video artifacts that DirecTV introduces. Watch it on cable and it looks crystal clear. This is because of the real-time MPEG2 encoding done by DirecTV.

Why does DVD look better than DirecTV? Because DVD MPEG2 is pre-encoded, using non-realtime mutli-pass encoding algorithms that generally guarantee a good picture. Many live HDTV TV shows (talk shows, new shows, etc).will use real-time MPEG2 encoders in their studio. However most pre-recorded TV and movie content for HDTV will use non-realtime multi-pass MPEG2 encoders before they broadcast the show. That way they can guarantee the highest quality high definition MPEG2 video prior to broadcast.

Re-encoding the video in real-time from MPEG2 to MPEG4 will cause that fantastic looking pre-encoded MPEG2 picture to have video artifacts due to real-time MPEG4 encoding. It might cause your core HDTV customers to get VERY upset. I don't want to see lots of pixilation on my $5000 home theater setup! I want true HD with my HDTV.

Posted by: interactiveTV

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
Why is the standard accepted measure of HDTV 9GB per hour? Where's the math for this? To my knowledge (which could be wrong), the actual video/audio signal of true HDTV is typically 19Mbps.

The folks over at the HTPC forum can probably thrown more light on this but the HDTV cards (such as the MYHD MDP-100) for PC use approximately 9GB/hour. The accepted measure is real world experience.

_ITV

Posted by: mishagray

I think that the Over-the-air DTV bandwidth of raw digital info is about 19mbs. Inside of this bandwidth are packets of data that include Audio, Video, channel info and error correction packets. Lots of little stuff.

My GUESS is (without any real knowledge) is that after strip away all the transmission packet headers and just extract the raw-video and audio stream, the actual data may drop to about 15mbs to 16mbs. (I made those numbers up..) This is all that would be required to store for video playback. Also I think that the ratio of error correction data to raw data is flexible. Add more data correction and the signal may be able to reach more customers. With a lot of lousy low-power HDTV attenna out there, the networks may be using more bandwidth for EC than video.

I think that even DirecTV has their own bandwidth limits that force HDTV down to about 15mbs channel.

Posted by: Luke M

quote:
Originally posted by Guyy

Now would recording 1080i and 720p yield different recording times? I would guess recording a 720p feed you would get more hours. Would this be so?

No. You're at the mercy of the local broadcaster, whatever bitrate they decide to use. Since most are not multicasting, there's no reason not to use the entire channel capacity at all times.

Posted by: lizrd

I have a (potentially stupid) question: All the posts on this thread seem to discuss DirecTivo. What news, if any, has there been about standalone? (I have TimeWarner Cable and just got a Samsung HDTV and a HDTV cable box, making my SA Tivo feel unloved)

Posted by: Luke M

quote:
Originally posted by mishagray
Why does DVD look better than DirecTV? Because DVD MPEG2 is pre-encoded, using non-realtime mutli-pass encoding algorithms that generally guarantee a good picture.

That's only part of the reason. The main reason is DirecTV uses a much lower bitrate. The resolution is also lower.

quote:

Many live HDTV TV shows (talk shows, new shows, etc).will use real-time MPEG2 encoders in their studio. However most pre-recorded TV and movie content for HDTV will use non-realtime multi-pass MPEG2 encoders before they broadcast the show. That way they can guarantee the highest quality high definition MPEG2 video prior to broadcast.

That's a nice vision, but it's (unfortunately) not the way things are done today or are likely to be done in the future.

Consider that broadcasters need to process the network feed through their video pipeline so they can add overlays (channel ID, weather alerts, etc). Plus the various distribution outlets all have their unique requirements as far as bitrate goes.

Posted by: turls

You must be counting the coupon discounts from all the dot com bust DVD online retailers. Nobody has ever sold typical new release DVD's for around $10 each unless you factor in discounts or unless they are out of business now.

Unless you are talking pre-1998 or so. I wasn't buying DVD's much before that.

quote:
Originally posted by PRT940
I thought DVD prices have been rising. A few years ago, I'd never spend more than $10 for a new release DVD.

Posted by: Dajad

quote:
Originally posted by lizrd
I have a (potentially stupid) question: All the posts on this thread seem to discuss DirecTivo. What news, if any, has there been about standalone? (I have TimeWarner Cable and just got a Samsung HDTV and a HDTV cable box, making my SA Tivo feel unloved)

For the next hour at least, it's all just speculation!

The NCTA and CEA announced an agreement on Dec 19 that would result in a national standard of digital cable boxes (including HDTV) by the latest of July 1, 2004. TiVo could build a natinal digital cable box to this standard that would be nationally portable. I suspect TiVo is NOT announcing this today since it is still new and subject to the approval of Powell. But I think within this year TiVo could very well announce plans for a national standalone DTV TiVo.

...Dale

Posted by: T-Wolves

quote:
Originally posted by turls
You must be counting the coupon discounts from all the dot com bust DVD online retailers. Nobody has ever sold typical new release DVD's for around $10 each unless you factor in discounts or unless they are out of business now.

Yeah, I'm definitely including discounts. I used to order from places like 800.com, buy.com, dvdexpress.com, cdnow.com, reel.com, etc. Some of these places were nuts, others just had lots of coupons.

That is a valid point; my having to pay more for DVDs may have more to do with online stores cutting back on incentives, than with the DVD manufacturers' raising prices.

But I still don't think that the current $18-$25 for a new-release DVD is any kind of bargain, unless there are lots of extras included.

Posted by: feldon23

Cable customers would finally get to shut up us DirecTiVo nuts. :) A dual tuner CableLabs/HDTV TiVo with DD5.1. :)

Posted by: stevel

Well, that assumes you're in a town whose cable system has HD and DD5.1 feeds....

Posted by: jeffshome

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=164

The TiVo HDTV reference design will offer all the same unique recording and viewing features currently available for the TiVo Series2 and will also support all high-definition formats, including 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. The source of the HDTV signal may be ATSC terrestrial HD broadcasts or satellite HD broadcast. The platform will also be capable of encoding a standard definition analog signal from terrestrial antenna, cable or satellite, identical to current generation TiVo platform functionality.

Posted by: jeffshome

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=166

quote:
The DIRECTV� HDTV DVR is expected to be available to consumers by year-end. The DIRECTV� DVR with TiVo� service will apply all the familiar TiVo functions to DIRECTV and ATSC high-definition programming -- including the ability to record, pause, instant replay and rewind live television. The new DIRECTV� HDTV DVR will feature a larger recording capacity than existing DIRECTV� DVRs, and will feature component and digital video outputs for enhanced audio and video. Manufacturers and pricing will be announced at a later date.

Posted by: AppState

read recent news at bottom.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=tivo&d=t

Posted by: Francesco

Scoop! Good job!

Posted by: Francesco

Wow. I hesitate to say it for fear of sounding like the TiVo shill I'm accused of being, but:

The announced DirecTV HDTV/ATSC DVR with TiVo sounds like a category-killer. This will put TiVo miles ahead.

Posted by: btmoore

quote:
Originally posted by satguymtl
Wow. I hesitate to say it for fear of sounding like the TiVo shill I'm accused of being, but:

The announced DirecTV HDTV/ATSC DVR with TiVo sounds like a category-killer. This will put TiVo miles ahead.

You still have the Dish 921 which sounds like it will have the lead in having a firewire port.

Posted by: Francesco

Who has a Dish 921? Firewire will be a moot point anyway without an actual DVI output. The new reference HDTiVo platform supports DVI.

Posted by: btmoore

quote:
Originally posted by satguymtl
Who has a Dish 921? Firewire will be a moot point anyway without an actual DVI output. The new reference HDTiVo platform supports DVI.

The 921 is/will be in the same catagory, e.g. HD DBS/OTA DVR. No body has either right now.

Firewire moot with out DVI??????? What are you talking about?

There is HAVI for FW if you want use it as a display input.

No one knows if they will down res the component outputs or not. The down res option for analog is a separate flag. Just because the content C5 or HDCP enabled does not mean that the component interface will be disabled. I want the firewire output so I can archive to a tape and then I will play the digital vcr through its display outputs. It is apparent that the new HD tivo reference design supports DVI so does the Dish 921, the dish also supports firewire. It is just a bad idea not to include FW in the box, even if it was not enabled on the first software release. FW is the interface for HD archiving.

Regards,

Brian

Posted by: BrettStah

From everything I've seen and heard about Dish's PVRs, they are far from being a true competitor to me. Of course, my most important functionality I look for has always been recording capabilities. And VCR-style timers with Dish's dismal track record in PVR reliability aren't even in the same league as DirecTV/Tivo models.

Posted by: samo

quote:
Who has a Dish 921?

Dish Network does. It is scheduled for spring 2003. Assuming usual delays, summer 2003. Should help TiVo to learn from mistakes leaders make and have a better unit by end of a year.

Posted by: Gregd33

Available by year-end?

BAH!

I want it now! :D

Posted by: BrettStah

samo, I've seen Dish's press release:
http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/i...&item_id=368952

I don't see anything about Spring 2003. Do you know of another release by Dish that mentions when they'll be releasing the 921?

And didn't they announce the 921 at last year's CES, or even before it? It seems like you've been talking about it for at least 12-18 months! :)

Posted by: btmoore

quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
From everything I've seen and heard about Dish's PVRs, they are far from being a true competitor to me. Of course, my most important functionality I look for has always been recording capabilities. And VCR-style timers with Dish's dismal track record in PVR reliability aren't even in the same league as DirecTV/Tivo models.

I look forward to trying both. No firewire is a major negitive for the Tivo, they are starting from behind.

Posted by: GScott

Brett,

According to Charlie himself the 921 i expected "later this year". It will be amusing if DirecTV beats him to market especially since his product was announced over a year sooner.

btmoore,

I disagree that without Firewire the TiVo is starting from behind. Without intelligent show recording the 921 is farther behind.

Posted by: btmoore

quote:
Originally posted by GScott
Brett,

According to Charlie himself the 921 i expected "later this year". It will be amusing if DirecTV beats him to market especially since his product was announced over a year sooner.

btmoore,

I disagree that without Firewire the TiVo is starting from behind. Without intelligent show recording the 921 is farther behind.

I don't know, I have not seen the software yet. I look forward to trying it. Software can always be fixed and enhanced, not having the hardware is impossible to fix with out replacing the equipment.

Posted by: jcblack

"said its HDTV design will be licensed to consumer electronics makers, who will sell the new device by the end of the year."

The worst part of this all is that its january 9. The end of the year couldn't be much further off. A lot can happen over the next 356 days.

Posted by: jberger

Hey,
I'm confused. Where are all those people who said TiVo didn't need HiDef, that it would cost too much, there's no market for it, etc. I could swear everytime someone asked about HiDef, we were told no way. Hmmm, where are they?

Way to go TiVo! DirecTV and ATSC Tuner! I could not be happier, unless it was already released.

Posted by: Francesco

I believe most of the sensible ones actually said it's off in the future, and TiVo will know when to announce it. Certain posters here would have none of this sensible talk, instead "demanding" to know NOW.

Well, TiVo found the right time and announced it. Big freaking whoop.

Posted by: jsmeeker

Will the Stand Alone, OTA HDTV TiVo do a decode and passthrough of the HDTV signal? That is, if I am TiVoing an HDTV program, can I also watch a live HDTV program, just like you could by using the "STANDBY" feature on the current SA TiVos??

Splitting the signal from the antenna won't do any good, as HDTVs don't have built in HDTV tuners (ok, sure, there are a few (very few) right now, but when I buy my HDTV, I *seriosly* doubt it will have a built in HDTV/ATSC tuner)

Posted by: Luke M

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
Will the Stand Alone, OTA HDTV TiVo do a decode and passthrough of the HDTV signal? That is, if I am TiVoing an HDTV program, can I also watch a live HDTV program, just like you could by using the "STANDBY" feature on the current SA TiVos??

Passthrough is not the right word. You're asking if it will be a "dual HDTV receiver" model. Who knows? My guess is no. But you may be able to watch/record a HDTV program while recording an analog program. That wouldn't require any additional hardware beyond a tuner; tuners are cheap, and it should have two RF inputs anyway, one for cable and one for antenna.

Posted by: Knative

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
Will the Stand Alone, OTA HDTV TiVo do a decode and passthrough of the HDTV signal?

Although I (obviously) don't know for sure I'd doubt it. Look at how much a OTA only HDTV tuner goes for today. My Zenith HDV420 is the 'cheapest' one out there and it still was $399. I don't see how a second HDTV tuner could be added to the box without seriously increasing the price.

This is the reason I'm glad to hear that a Stand Alone HD-TiVo is being released. I don't want to pay the premium for a box that will decode DirecTV's HDTV when there's not much content that I would watch. For comparison purposes a Zenith OTA/DirecTV HD STB is ~$200 more than their OTA only version.

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by jberger
Hey,
I'm confused. Where are all those people who said TiVo didn't need HiDef, that it would cost too much, there's no market for it, etc. I could swear everytime someone asked about HiDef, we were told no way. Hmmm, where are they?

I'm one of those people, and have to admit that I'm surprised they are already planning a product for introduction this year. I'll buy one for sure.

I agree with satguymtl - those of us who weren't on board figured TiVo would know when it was time -- and they obviously think the time is this year.

Posted by: feldon23

quote:
Will the Stand Alone, OTA HDTV TiVo do a decode and passthrough of the HDTV signal? That is, if I am TiVoing an HDTV program, can I also watch a live HDTV program, just like you could by using the "STANDBY" feature on the current SA TiVos??

Splitting the signal from the antenna won't do any good

.

Standby mode uses your TiVo's RF input and output ports AS A SPLITTER, so no. As mentioned, an ATSC tuner alone is $399.

Posted by: turls

Aren't you forgetting something?

Like the monthly fees you would have to pay that you will probably avoid with the DirecTV HD Tivo box?

And--not that much content? Nobody even knows how many HD channels DirecTV will have by the time this is released. If all you are interested in is OTA HD how is there even enough content to invest a good chunk of money in the box anyway?

quote:
Originally posted by Knative
This is the reason I'm glad to hear that a Stand Alone HD-TiVo is being released. I don't want to pay the premium for a box that will decode DirecTV's HDTV when there's not much content that I would watch. For comparison purposes a Zenith OTA/DirecTV HD STB is ~$200 more than their OTA only version.

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by turls
And--not that much content? Nobody even knows how many HD channels DirecTV will have by the time this is released. If all you are interested in is OTA HD how is there even enough content to invest a good chunk of money in the box anyway?

ESPN's HDTV channel launches on March 30.
Network TV already has numerous shows in primetime in HD.
DirecTV has HBO in HD.
HDNet has hockey, and had Anna Kournikova playing Tennis in HD :D.
Discovery Channel HD is still around the corner, right?

I think I could probably find enough stuff to fill it up within a week or two ;).

Posted by: Knative

Originally posted by turls
Aren't you forgetting something?

Like the monthly fees you would have to pay that you will probably avoid with the DirecTV HD Tivo box?
Aren't you forgetting something? As in the cost to upgrade my current DirecTV setup to be able to receive HDTV? We'll lets run it down, shall we?

I currently have two DTiVos and two 'regular' receivers, so six outlets all together. I have LILs from a round dish. The dish is mounted on an unattached garage, with the ~125 foot dual runs of RG-6 between the dish and the house buried underground in conduit. Originally I had one DTivo & two 'regular' receivers so a 2x4 multiswitch handled everything for a couple of weeks. The 2nd DTiVo added a second 2x4 cascaded off the first 2x4. Got all that? Now rip all of it out.

To upgrade to be able to receive HDTV it would require:

* An oval dish with dual lnbs & Sat C kit.
* Two more ~125 foot runs of RG-6 to the house. Underground. In conduit that would have to be dug up & and replaced as the current conduit isn't of sufficient diameter for four lines.
* A new 4x8 multiswitch to pass the tones for the 119 satellite to all seven outlets.
* Two new runs from the 4x8 multiswitch to the my existing second DTiVo, one run to the HD-DTiVo.
* Either my sweat equity or $$$ to pay someone to do all of the above.
* The additional cost of a DirecTV HD capable HD-TiVo as compared to an OTA only HD-DTiVo.

Add up all of the above. Divide by the number of current/planned/pipe dream DirecTV HD channels, less ESPN-HD (I don't watch ESPN-SD now), and Showtime-HD (I don't get Showtime). Don't forget the lack of bandwidth available to DirecTV to add HD channels. Subtract from that limited bandwidth the amount required for NFLST feeds in HD that were announced (and no, I don't watch NFLST. Wouldn't help anyway as the Buccaneers are on OTA Fox (480p)). So how much am I paying per channel for DirecTV-HD? Do you think it's worth it? I don't.

And--not that much content? Nobody even knows how many HD channels DirecTV will have by the time this is released. If all you are interested in is OTA HD how is there even enough content to invest a good chunk of money in the box anyway?
There are more hours of HDTV available OTA than there is via DirecTV. I count only new programming when figuring 'hours'. After all, I'll have a HD-TiVo so I don't need the repeats. So all the showings of "Lost City of the Incas" on Discovery-HD (which we may or may not get) would count as one hour for the week, not 15. Which would also mean that "Late Night with Jay Leno" on NBC OTA would count as five hours for the week. Monday Night Football is 3.5 hours a week (in season). For the next week, in primetime, CBS has 13 hours and 7 hours of the AFC playoffs; NBC has 11.5 hours, and ABC has 13 hours. Fox isn't really HD but even they have a few hours of 480p offered as well as 7 hours of the NFC playoffs. None of which is available from DirecTV-HD.

So yeah, I'll pay the $12.95(?) a month for a SA HD-TiVo. Using today's equipment prices the $200 I'll save on the box alone will pay for 15 months of the service. And if there's lifetime available for the SA HD then it'll probably be a wash.

Maybe you don't have many OTA HD channels in your area. I've got all the networks and then some. Ten channels of DTV total for free. Right now the HDTV offered by DirecTV is free. Do you really think it's going to stay that way forever? I'd be willing to bet that once a few more HDTV channels are added that DirecTV comes up with a "HDTV Package" to group those channels under. Available at a nominal monthly charge, of course. ESPN-SD is one of the more expensive satellite/cable channels out there right now. Do you really think ESPN is going to pay for all the equipment & set upgrades and then offer ESPN-HD for free to the satellite/cable companies? Since ESPN isn't going to be giving it away what makes you think DirecTV will?

Posted by: cab

Just my .02? I'm both a dish network customer, and a SA tivo owner. I'm there on either HDPVR unit that comes out first. (Well, give it a month or 2 to let someone else be the newest beta tester) Pricing will also be key. The better this is priced, the more it will sell. I have a high end HT but I do need to watch the wallet in these times.

The one thing I'm looking for in the Tivo SA announcements that I haven't seen is DD 5.1 sound. Maybe it's a given that a HDPVR would have to have this, but not seeing it in print makes me nervous. To me, the Dolby ProLogic drawback of the SA units is a big downside. I love my Tivo 1.x SA unit but really wish they had manged to put DD into the 2.x standalone units. Maybe I'm just too much the pessimist?

Posted by: feldon23

quote:
The one thing I'm looking for in the Tivo SA announcements that I haven't seen is DD 5.1 sound. Maybe it's a given that a HDPVR would have to have this, but not seeing it in print makes me nervous. To me, the Dolby ProLogic drawback of the SA units is a big downside. I love my Tivo 1.x SA unit but really wish they had manged to put DD into the 2.x standalone units. Maybe I'm just too much the pessimist?

There is no doubt in my mind that the TiVo standalone HDTV model will have a DD5.1 output for any ATSC channels it receives. What is much much less certain is whether it will have a DD5.1 input to work with the variety of digital cable boxes out there.

And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the DirecTV/OTA HDTiVo will have a DD5.1 output which is live for everything.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by jberger
Hey,
I'm confused. Where are all those people who said TiVo didn't need HiDef, that it would cost too much, there's no market for it, etc. I could swear everytime someone asked about HiDef, we were told no way. Hmmm, where are they?

I was one of the ones saying that TiVo could figure this out based on better data than our pony requests and that my gut feel/wild guess was that TiVo could get away without HD for about a year. I'm not sure if I qualify for the above or not, but it looks like they'll probably be shipping right around the time of my guess.

Oh wait, that means it wasn't a guess. It was a highly sophisticated prediction! :D

Posted by: Dajad

Since I'm not one to say "I told you so..." I won't !!! :) ... Dale

Posted by: Todd76

quote:
Originally posted by Gregd33
I this is an HD recorder, I will purchase one ASAP IF:

1) It can record OTA HD
2) It can record Regular DirecTV
3) It can record HD DirecTV

It can do all three but only one at a time. I wouldn't buy one unless I had another ATSC tuner. Otherwise, you still only get to watch one HD program per time slot. If you do buy one, they'll probably introduce one that records two shows at a time the next month. :)

Posted by: cptodd

quote:
Originally posted by cab
Pricing will also be key. The better this is priced, the more it will sell. I have a high end HT but I do need to watch the wallet in these times.

I did a search on cnet for "tivo" just to see what news was there and I do remember someone reporting that the new SA HDTV TiVo was going to be priced at $1,000+. I can't remember if this price was from the TiVo rep or the rep of the company that was going to build the unit or the reporter's speculation. I remember the $1,000+ price because I remember saying something to the effect of "oh well! can't get one of those". I am not sure if I am willing to pay that much money. The kind's of movies that I like to watch does not compel me to have things like surround sound and the like.

Posted by: Harv

quote:
Originally posted by PRT940
I thought DVD prices have been rising. A few years ago, I'd never spend more than $10 for a new release DVD. Now, most of them come out at $18 or more, and bargains ($10 or less) are very hard to find. It seems to me that now that there is a solid base of DVD players out there, they no longer have to provide as much incentive to get people to buy the DVDs, so the prices are going up.

I think grecorj was probably talking about DVD players. Not the actual DVD media.

Posted by: Syzygy

quote:
Harv said:
I think grecorj was probably talking about DVD players. Not the actual DVD media.

Nope.

quote:
grecorj said:
DVD prices have been falling for years. Eventually, they'll be so cheap that you won't even bother renting them anymore. Why bother messing with recording your own copy of "Fletch" when you can buy it for $6.95 at Tower Records?