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Buffy 7x11 "ShowTime" SPOILERS!!
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Posted by: TiVoLance
Well 30 minutes till it's on and I can't wait. Do you think we will find out what happened to Giles? I for one place all my money on the future slayers to get killed this episode. Discuss :)
"SHOWTIME"
Buffy's training of the Potential Slayers takes on a greater urgency as they and the Scoobie gang race against time to try and defeat the Ubervamp, who guards the cave where Spike is being held captive. Meanwhile, Anya and Giles meet with an oracle-like creature who has unsettling information about Buffy's past and future.
Posted by: zaknafein
Finally! I've been waiting a lot longer than most of you, and I'm sick of it.
(and, I finally get to participate in these threads :) )
Posted by: TiVoLance
Two Men Enter One Man Leaves! hehe good overall story arc episode. Still no FYI on Giles however. So Buffy's 3rd Death (from Glory) and Resurrection is what caused the first to think it could end the slayer line. Was it just me or did anyone else want to see them kill the uber-vamp with a little more finese that a makeshift wire offs the head.
BTW Andrew was so funny in this episode.
Posted by: zaknafein
Best quote...
"I'm bored -- Episode 1 bored."
LOL. I was kind of hoping we'd get more info about Giles, but I was surprised to see Ubervamp dusted. Good stuff.
Edit: With Spike freed, I'm guessing we'll find out the truth about Giles rather soon. If anyone can tell if Giles is real or not Spike will.
Edit2: Also note this episode is the first confirmed occurance of The First showing itself to multiple people simultaneously.
Posted by: kdmorse
quote:
BTW Andrew was so funny in this episode.
I don't know - he's starting to get *really* annoying... It's fun for now, but too much more and he'll be in the Jar Jar Binks category.
Very good though. Can't wait to see where things go from here.
But - No scenes from next week. *******s!
...
Ack - No episode next week. *******s!!!!
-Ken
Edit: Wow.. I had no idea the forum censored the word *******. *******s! ;)
Posted by: TiVaholic
WOHOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I knew they wouldn't do anything about the Giles thing, but that wasn't nagging at me that much. Now, can the First raise another one of those Ubervamps, or is that the only one? I had the strangest feeling it would be beheading, though. Ok, I'm really jumping around in my ideas. Was I the only one who was almost shaking during the fight scene? What about cheering at the dusting?
This is one of the bad things about a small school- I don't think anyone else in my school watches it, so I won't have anything to talk about tomorrow :(
Posted by: LoadStar
Ok, pretty good episode... though they killed Noodles!!! (Noodles is a nickname that some of the buffy boards gave to the ubervamp)
Before he died, Noodles really needed to take out Andrew... and a few of the SITs too. There are just way too many annoying little girls running around this show now.
During the Noodles-Buffy battle scene, did anyone think "potential new Buffy video game"? I did... I can see it... a mortal combat style video game, using characters from Buffy - you can play Buffy, Spike, Faith, and beat the crap out of vamps, demons, etc... or you can play Dawn and let them beat the crap out of you... oh, sorry, that last part is wishful thinking on my part.
Spike getting freed seemed almost like an afterthought... "oh, yeah. We need him freed next episode. Oh, yeah... just write Buffy strolling in and freeing him... first evil? What first evi - oh, yeah. Well... maybe people won't notice. Just stick it at the end of the episode."
Even though we're all aware of just how badly UPN previews suck, I still would've preferred a "in two weeks" preview to nothing... grr... argh...
Posted by: JYoung
quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Edit2: Also note this episode is the first confirmed occurance of The First showing itself to multiple people simultaneously.
Well, that blows my theory......
Still a good episode that nicely moves the season's arc along. This could have been a great one if there was more of a climax to killing the Ubervamp though.
Posted by: Mr. Belboz
I liked Buffy's line which was the same as the Masters line from Season 1.
"Here endeth the lesson"
Posted by: rexdart
quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
So Buffy's 3rd Death (from Glory) and Resurrection is what caused the first to think it could end the slayer line.
Uh oh, I'm feeling dumb. I am not sure when/what the second death was. I just finished the whole series excepting the few eps that FX skipped over (got em recorded, ready to watch now).
I was only aware of "Prophecy Girl" and "The Gift", what did I miss?!
Posted by: rexdart
Wait a sec, I guess we are counting "The Wish", hmm, seems tenuous but ok, I'll allow it.....:D
Posted by: kdmorse
Anyone else notice how severely pissed Ms. Evil looked at the very end? Clearly not the way she expected things to work out.
She's been discovered and tossed out of the Buffy household, lost her new uber-minion (Noodles?? Now that's not a name I would have come up with...), no longer has Andrew to do her bidding (although that could change), has done a relatively poor job of picking off the remaining slayer wannabes, has now lost Spike, and at this rate has got to be running low on eye-less minions.
This episode not only rebalanced the scales considerably, but left me with the decided impression that our grand lurking evil is running out of evil. Part of the reason I was specifically looking for scenes from upcoming episodes is I'm very curious as to what she's got left...
And as to Buffy's resurrection throwing a wrench into the slayer-works, seriously, the entire line of succession has been tied in knots ever since Kendra's appearance. And then made more complicated by Dawn's appearance. Buffy isn't even the official slayer anymore, so I don't see how her second death could have mucked things up much worse.
Although I do like the general idea that the line has become so convoluted in general that it has fouled up the power behind it, and made it vulnerable.
All around, lots of fun....
-Ken
Posted by: rexdart
I gotta figure the something up firstie's sleeve is going to be Faith at some point.
With that in mind though, I doubt it will be so simple as good slayer vs. bad slayer, not in Joss' world.
Posted by: Mr. Belboz
quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
I for one place all my money on the future slayers to get killed this episode.
Guess your not buying the next round! :)
Posted by: DanT
quote:
Originally posted by rexdart
Uh oh, I'm feeling dumb. I am not sure when/what the second death was. I just finished the whole series excepting the few eps that FX skipped over (got em recorded, ready to watch now).
I was only aware of "Prophecy Girl" and "The Gift", what did I miss?!
Although Buffy has died three times, it wasn't the third death that caused the problem. It was the second. You've listed the first and second deaths already, but the third was in season 6, when she flat-lined at the hospital in Villains, after being shot.
Oh, and as for Buffy just walking in there and freeing Spike, it's been established that the First Evil can't actually touch anything. So it's not a direct threat to her. And she seems to not have a problem kicking the asses of the Bringers, so until the First summons something else, there was really nothing to stop her. Sure, they probably should have shown her fighting some of the Bringers, but maybe they were all still out wandering around after everyone escaped from Buffy's house. :)
Posted by: Pie_People2
The funniest part of the episode is when Buffy came home and Andrew was lying down on the couch, and he quickly took his feet off and dusted off the couch. that was hilarious.
No Lesbian scenes :mad:
Posted by: awexton
This episode started me thinking about the "activating" of new slayers, and I had some questions. Kendra was up the first time Buffy died.
What about Faith? When/why was she "activated"?
And what happened after Buffy's second death? They showed the Scoobies and Buffy-bot protecting Sunnydale and trying to cover for her death, but was there ever any hint of the new slayer emerging?
And, if briefly flatlining after being shot was Buffy's third death, who was activated then?
Perhaps we should have seen some sort of mess coming. (And good for the writers to turn it into a major story arc!)
Posted by: awexton
Oh wait. Reviewing my own post, I'll add a teeny tiny bit of thought and guess that Faith was activated when Kendra was killed.
(This is why I post so rarely; inevitably I make myself look ill-informed, at best.)
But the rest is still a mystery to me.
Posted by: kdmorse
Buffy died (though she was only gone for a minute) at the end of Season One. At this point, a new slayer (Kendra) was called, and appeared in sunnydale some months late.
Kendra was then the official slayer. When Kendra died, it brought Faith into the picture. Faith is now the officially chosen one, and a new slayer will only be called now upon Faith's death.
Buffy is technically no longer the chosen on, or officially relevant as far as the line of succession is concerned. (Talk about a truly thankless job - seeing as she's the one doing all the work). She could die and come back a dozen more times, and it would not bring about a new slayer. Although it seems her comings and goings has managed to tie the once clear line of succession into something of a knot.
-Ken
Posted by: Pie_People2
Buffy comes back more from the dead than Jason. :mad:
Posted by: Chris Roberts
I don't understand why they haven't told the potentials about Faith since she is the real Slayer. If something happens to Buffy they seem to be under the impression one of them will become the Slayer. Now that I think about it maybe Buffy will die this season and while all the remaining potentials are standing around wondering who is going to be chosen Faith will show up and help Willow kick the First's arse. :-\
Posted by: kdmorse
I suspect that like so many other things that were only briefly mentioned to the potential slayers (such as Spike, and Andrew), Faith's a bit of a long story. After all, Faith and Buffy aren't exactly best friends at this point, although they're not really mortal enemies either. Just how exactly would you describe Faith? Recommend trusting her with your life, or fleeing in terror if she appears?
I guess this paragraph technically contains a spoiler...
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
I suspect her reappearance on both Angel and Buffy will be quite interesting.
Come to think of it, I hope they didn't screw the continuity up too much when they moved Angel to Wednesday, then delayed it by another week. It would be funny to see Faith arrive in Sunnydale the day before she leaves LA. It was all so carefully scripted to work across the two networks...
-Ken
Posted by: rexdart
Faith is employed as a tool of the first.
Faith and Buffy fight - probably several times.
Buffy kills Faith after she has almost certainly done some pretty hefty damage to scooby inc.
New slayer (Kennedy, Dawn perhaps?) is activated.
Buffy sails away on the white ship to the Gray Havens and into theatrical anonymity!
There.
:D
Edited to add cheesy grin.....:D hey! there's another one!
Posted by: Bryanmc
Good episode.
I like Andrew a lot. Funny. Who'd thunk that he'd be the last of the trio around, getting all the screen time? He always was the "bottom rung" of the group.
Man I need to know what's up with Giles. Something needs to be said. If he's normal and wasn't killed or anything, then my vote is that Faith saved him and we'll find that out when she enters the picture.
I'll be glad to see Spike back in the story a bit more. Can't wait for the slayerettes to meet him, should be a good moment.
Posted by: Chris Roberts
Unfortunately I missed half an episode this season so I have no idea why everyone is concerned with Giles. Anybody care to take the time to enlighten me? Thanks.
Posted by: Pie_People2
Giles might of been decapitated.....:mad:
Posted by: Bryanmc
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Roberts
Unfortunately I missed half an episode this season so I have no idea why everyone is concerned with Giles. Anybody care to take the time to enlighten me? Thanks.
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
While Giles was in England and the potential slayers and watchers were being killed, he comes across a watcher that was just killed.
Giles kneels down to check on him and from behind him one of the Bringers takes a swing at him with an ax. The scene goes to black right as the blade is about to hit him in the neck.
We don't actually see him get hit, though it's going to have to be a pretty good explanation if he was missed by it somehow. It's really close.
Posted by: murgatroyd
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Roberts
Unfortunately I missed half an episode this season so I have no idea why everyone is concerned with Giles. Anybody care to take the time to enlighten me? Thanks.
See the thread:Buffy 7x10 "Bring on the Night" (SPOILERS!!!)
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...&threadid=90872
Quick recap: in the episode above:
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Giles doesn't touch anything.
Jan
Posted by: dcheesi
IMHO, the appearance of Annoying Southern Accent Girl(TM) as an incarnation of Evil makes the Giles'==FE scenario less likely. Why bother having (being) two moles in the same household? Unless it's being exceptionally devious, letting them think they've plugged the leak, of course. But if the FE was that smart, it would have gotten its minions to hide the girl's body so it could prolong the charade.
The simplest answer to all this is that the Coven was already protecting Giles at that stage. But we all know the relationship between TV plotlines and the simplest answer... :)
Posted by: Philosofy
OK, this is driving me nuts. Someone here mentioned the "Here endeth the lesson" is from the Master in season 1, but was it used before that in some movie? Also, when did the Master use it?
Posted by: mrmike
I dunno, I'm starting to buy the Giles as FE thing a little more. He's been working on people's fears a lot "It all depends on you, Buffy, nobody else matters, here's the fate of the world on your shoulders yet again", "Well now, Anya, who do we think is really responsible for all these problems". (both paraphrases of dialogue and subtext, but you get the drift). He's not exactly being Mr. Supportive Helpful Guy. On the other hand, it's not like we haven't seen him be Dark Depressing Guy before either. I'm still waffling, but he still hasn't touched anyone or anything that I've seen which is an odd bit of stage business at the least and almost has to be intentional at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
OK, this is driving me nuts. Someone here mentioned the "Here endeth the lesson" is from the Master in season 1, but was it used before that in some movie? Also, when did the Master use it?
I'm pretty sure Spike used that line once when pontificating on Death and the Slayer and such back when he was bad, at least I had an auditory flashback of his voice saying it with that sneer he has.
-MM
Posted by: msgoff
quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
OK, this is driving me nuts. Someone here mentioned the "Here endeth the lesson" is from the Master in season 1, but was it used before that in some movie? Also, when did the Master use it?
Yes - it was uttered by Sean Connery's character (Jim Malone) in "The Untouchables" when he mentors Kevin Costner's Elliot Ness.
In fact, that's the connection I made when I heard it from Buffy last night. I thought it was a pretty cool analogy linking Buffy with Sean Connery in general, but even more the notion of the older, more experienced, teacher.
Posted by: Philosofy
Thanks msgooff! (BTW, you wouldn't be related to the Goffs from Newport RI, would you?)
Posted by: ILoveMyTiVo
"Here endeth the lesson" has been used twice already on Buffy.
Once by the master to his minions in "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date" (1.5) and again by Spike to Buffy after telling about killing past slayers in "Fool for Love" (5.7).
No I did not just remember that. There is a really useful search engine for Buffy transcripts here:
http://jemimap.freeshell.org/cgi-bi...Buffy/WebSearch
I'm fairly sure the quote has some source before the movie mentioned or Buffy. But the Buffy writers probably just think it sounds cool.
If they drag out the Giles not touching anything much longer without anyone noticing, the Scoobies are going to look really stupid. Fool me once...
Posted by: JediCowboyD
quote:
Originally posted by msgoff
Yes - it was uttered by Sean Connery's character (Jim Malone) in "The Untouchables" when he mentors Kevin Costner's Elliot Ness.
In fact, that's the connection I made when I heard it from Buffy last night. I thought it was a pretty cool analogy linking Buffy with Sean Connery in general, but even more the notion of the older, more experienced, teacher.
Connery used that line, true, but that's not where its from. It's used in the Christian liturgy to signify the end of a reading from the Bible. I was raised Lutheran (now atheist) and the line was used in our services, but have also heard this in Roman Catholic services. There are lots of Christian traditions and the methods of services and the words may differ, but this is traditionally how it goes:
There are 3 Bible readings per service, the First Lesson which is taken fromt the Old Testement, the Second lesson is taken from the New Testement, and the Gospel which is taken from the New Testement books of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
At the end of the readings of the First and Second Lessons the reader usually says "Here endeth the Lesson." Nothing is really meant by this other than its the traditional way to signify the end of the reading.
The phrase, however, has worked its way in to our culture as a way of saying "What I just taught you is very important," or in the ironic usage of the Master , "I just smacked you down real good."
So yeah, Connery said it, but both Mamet and Whedon were quoting the Christian liturgy, Buffy wasn't quoting Connery.
(And for the curious, the Gospel doesn't end with "Here endeth the lesson." Usually a layperson in the church will read the Lessons, while the priest reads the Gospel, the words of Jesus. The priest will end the Gospel reading with (if I remember correctly) "This is the Word of the Lord," to which the congregation replies "Thanks be to God.")
Here endeth the lesson. :)
Posted by: msgoff
quote:
Originally posted by JediCowboyD
Connery used that line, true, but that's not where its from. It's used in the Christian liturgy to signify the end of a reading from the Bible. I was raised Lutheran (now atheist) and the line was used in our services, but have also heard this in Roman Catholic services. There are lots of Christian traditions and the methods of services and the words may differ, but this is traditionally how it goes:
There are 3 Bible readings per service, the First Lesson which is taken fromt the Old Testement, the Second lesson is taken from the New Testement, and the Gospel which is taken from the New Testement books of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
At the end of the readings of the First and Second Lessons the reader usually says "Here endeth the Lesson." Nothing is really meant by this other than its the traditional way to signify the end of the reading.
The phrase, however, has worked its way in to our culture as a way of saying "What I just taught you is very important," or in the ironic usage of the Master , "I just smacked you down real good."
So yeah, Connery said it, but both Mamet and Whedon were quoting the Christian liturgy, Buffy wasn't quoting Connery.
(And for the curious, the Gospel doesn't end with "Here endeth the lesson." Usually a layperson in the church will read the Lessons, while the priest reads the Gospel, the words of Jesus. The priest will end the Gospel reading with (if I remember correctly) "This is the Word of the Lord," to which the congregation replies "Thanks be to God.")
Here endeth the lesson. :)
Very good point! I wasn't aware of that - although I believe that Connery's character first says this line after a meeting with Ness in a church, so that does make a lot of sense.
Posted by: rexdart
Hmm, all this talk about Giles has got me wondering.....did we ever actually see him and Eve at the same time?
:eek: Gotta go watch again!
Posted by: zaknafein
quote:
Originally posted by rexdart
Hmm, all this talk about Giles has got me wondering.....did we ever actually see him and Eve at the same time?
:eek: Gotta go watch again!
It will be difficult to know for certain, since we don't know for certain when Eve died.
If memory serves though, I think Giles was with Anya while that part was unfolding.
Posted by: rexdart
Bah, skip it, they are in the living room together at the beginning, and they did say Eve had been dead for days.
So it would seem either the first can appear in more than one persona (seems literarily lazy), or Giles is not the first...could still be dead though, acting in spirit form or whatever.
Oh for this to turn out to be nothing....
future interview:
Cinescape: What about all the speculation when Giles didn't touch anything for several episodes after the attack?
Whedon: Really? He didn't? I never noticed that, weird, I'll have to go back and look again.
:D
Posted by: rexdart
and to continue the nitpick parade, Giles does clearly lean back against a garbage can while he and Anya are speaking with the demon.
Posted by: zaknafein
Don't forget The First was presumably projecting itself at multiple places during "Conversations With Dead People". Presumably, since it can be at multiple places at the same time, it can be at the same place multiple times. :)
Posted by: awexton
Ken: thanks for the excellent summary. Sounds good.
but... was this ever explained on the show, or is it just good detective work on your part (and that of all the other loyal fans)? Especially the part about her not being the true slayer anymore.
Posted by: rexdart
True, but I thought it was never confirmed those instances were happening concurrently. I do not recall anything in that episode leading me to believe they were not taking place at different times.
Posted by: Chris Roberts
After reading my usual episode summary website I discovered (while looking at the next few episodes) that the answer to the Giles question will be in the episode after the next one. I don't know how to do those spolier things so if you want further info go to www.tvtome.com. They do really good Buffy summaries even going as far as pointing out a lot of the pop culture references in every episode.
Be warned, after reading the summaries for the next few episodes I'd wished that I hadn't. Things they give away would have been better as surprises. Last time I do that.
Posted by: rexdart
quote:
Originally posted by awexton
Ken: thanks for the excellent summary. Sounds good.
but... was this ever explained on the show, or is it just good detective work on your part (and that of all the other loyal fans)? Especially the part about her not being the true slayer anymore.
Awexton, I am not sure if it has ever been concretely determined that Buffy is no longer a "valid" slayer.
The calling of Kendra after Buffy's death in "Prophecy Girl" gave the impression that she had been demoted for lack of a better term. I have often wondered why she would have maintained her abilities if she were no longer a slayer.
It may be that the very convolution the ball of popcorn in the cage speaks of comes from the presence of two slayers at once, something most certainly which was never meant to happen.
This would have been corrected by Buffy's death in "The Gift" with Faith being left as the only active slayer but the gang's revival of Buffy kicked everything sideways again.
It is interesting to wonder if the repair of this anomaly turns out to be the way to defeat the First. That would cast doubt on my theory of the First using Faith as a weapon against Buffy seeing as how the death of either would be it's downfall.
Of course, there is nothing that says the First knows exactly why it can now move against the slayer line, only that it can.
Posted by: rexdart
[whistle]
flag on the play!
Upon further review, I guess Buffy does have to be the one to die to correct the problem (where earlier I supposed either Faith or she could get the boot), her previous death did not call a third slayer so she is not propagating the line. If Faith dies, another slayer is called, problem still exists.
What a great way to write a main character out of the story....she HAS to die.
Posted by: sschwart
How many times is that poor girl going to die? I'm getting rather tired of it... "I'm dead, I'm alive, I'm dead, I'm alive...." What happens if they make her a vamp? Does that "fix" things?
I'm not sure I understand however how anything would stop the first from just wiping out the slayers... If there's only Faith left, why can't it continue it's systematic killing of potentials and then Faith, until there's no slayer left?
And what's up with Giles? It's extremly doubtful that he's the first... But something is definately not right about him... Joss Whedon's going out of his way to keep him from interacting with the cast, and he's acting strange.
And someone re-gag Andrew... He talks too much.
-Steve
Posted by: aschucher
I recall seeing the First (as Buffy) touch Spikes face last night. Does that not violate the "FE can't take corporeal form and can't touch anything" rule?
Posted by: Dawghows
quote:
Originally posted by aschucher
I recall seeing the First (as Buffy) touch Spikes face last night. Does that not violate the "FE can't take corporeal form and can't touch anything" rule?
She didn't touch him. I replayed it a couple times to make sure, and she never actually made contact. It also looked like Anya touched Giles at one point when they returned from the portal, but she didn't.
Posted by: Bryanmc
quote:
Originally posted by aschucher
I recall seeing the First (as Buffy) touch Spikes face last night. Does that not violate the "FE can't take corporeal form and can't touch anything" rule?
Was that during Spike's dream, or after?
Posted by: GoldenTiger
quote:
Originally posted by awexton
This episode started me thinking about the "activating" of new slayers, and I had some questions. Kendra was up the first time Buffy died.
What about Faith? When/why was she "activated"?
And what happened after Buffy's second death? They showed the Scoobies and Buffy-bot protecting Sunnydale and trying to cover for her death, but was there ever any hint of the new slayer emerging?
And, if briefly flatlining after being shot was Buffy's third death, who was activated then?
Perhaps we should have seen some sort of mess coming. (And good for the writers to turn it into a major story arc!)
1) Faith activated because Kendra died.
2) No new slayer came on Buffy's second death because Faith was alive and became the "official" slayer until Buffy was resurrected.
3) I have never heard of anyone calling Buffy's flatlining a death before. You can flatline without dying... it is not considered death in real life and aside from the one poster in this thread I have never heard anyone call that episode "Buffy's third death". No one was activated because it wasn't a death.
As for what The First has up its sleeves, I see a few things:
1) The Bringers: They're able to hurt Buffy and the Scoobies... they managed to kidnap Spike even when he was under heavy guard, and injure a few people. They could easily kill the Potentials, Xander, or Dawn as well, even in daylight if they went to go get something from a store or whatnot while not under Buffy or Willow's direct protection. The First could kick off a protection spell if Willow tried to give them one and then sic the Bringers on them.
2) The Coven: Backfire or channel through some of their spells like The First did with Willow?
3) Corrupt Spike.
4) Imitate Giles (I still think Giles is dead...) and cause Buffy to accidentally open up something cataclysmic (I thought the all-seeing eye was precisely that, until it turned out to be an Oracle; I thought opening the dimension would cause reality to possibly fold or something and that's why Anya was protesting it so much).
5) Corrupt Faith...
6) Corrupt Angel...
7) Cause general insanity in the city with imitation and sneakery.
8) Corrupt the government or an army platoon and have them attack Buffy (Mr. President, nuclear missiles in Sunnydale!! or fool them into thinking Buffy is holding the Potentials hostage or whatnot).
9) Get the Police to attack Buffy since they're technically holding Andrew hostage.
10) Use your imagination... there's a LOT of possibilities!
Posted by: GoldenTiger
quote:
Originally posted by rexdart
and to continue the nitpick parade, Giles does clearly lean back against a garbage can while he and Anya are speaking with the demon.
Yes, but he doesn't touch it, nor does anything happen from his "leaning". It looked pretend...
Posted by: Bryanmc
BTW, my love for Anya continues with this episode.
"If you open the portal, I'll have sex with you. Again."
_____
"You were dressed in pink."
"Those were entrails."
:D:D:D
And Giles is not dead. I admit there's something up with him, but he's not dead. No. Can't accept it. You can't remove him from the show, then bring him back only to kill him. I won't have it. He's ALIVE. Got it?
Posted by: rexdart
quote:
Originally posted by GoldenTiger
Yes, but he doesn't touch it, nor does anything happen from his "leaning". It looked pretend...
hehe, and I thought I was reaching.....
:D
I am going to try that with my boss...."no, I'm not slacking, its pretend!"
whoo boy, I need a life!
Posted by: Philosofy
As for not mentioning Faith, they have twice so far. When Buffy learned about the deaths of future slayers, she said something like "Then Faith, then me, then its all over."
Also, when the slayer wannabe's were talking, one said "Isn't there another slayer? What's up with that?"
Posted by: zaknafein
quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
BTW, my love for Anya continues with this episode.
"If you open the portal, I'll have sex with you. Again."
_____
"You were dressed in pink."
"Those were entrails."
:D:D:D
And Giles is not dead. I admit there's something up with him, but he's not dead. No. Can't accept it. You can't remove him from the show, then bring him back only to kill him. I won't have it. He's ALIVE. Got it?
I agree, on both points.
Posted by: ILoveMyTiVo
Here's my take on the touching/leaning/etc issue: The First can't interact with anything physical to the extent that it can't cause a change/movement in the physical object. It can definitely look like it's leaning against the wall. One of the 'dead people' 100% confirmed to be The First in CWDP was Cassie. I'm pretty sure she was sitting in a chair. Leaning against a wall is no different than appearing to be standing on the floor - it's not really touching the floor at all. It can also seem to interact with objects if the objects aren't real - so Giles can take off his glasses because the glasses aren't real either. And I don't think Buffy/First actually touched Spike - just came _really_ close - that's why touching her at the end convinces Spike it's the real Buffy.
To the question of Buffy's deaths - I would say that the 'flatline' at the end of the season is not a death at all. She didn't really flatline - all the machines, including the lights went wacky when Willow came into the room. Willow could not bring Buffy back to life from the bullet unless it was just something simulating normal medical methods like those paddles. She really hasn't died/come back much. She died for maybe a minute in season 1 - brought back with CPR, nothing supernatural. She died once for real in the Gift, brought back with majik, and that has had serious bad consequences. Dead characters come back a lot on this show, but not as the human character they were, just dreams/First impersonations/vampires/etc. There was just the one supernatural resurrection I can think of (and possibly the unseen/implied not normal Joyce from Dawn's spell after she died).
I, for one, don't want them to gag Andrew. "I'm bored. Episode I bored." :D
Posted by: Chris Roberts
Buffy never died in the hospital. If she had than Willow couldn't have brought her back for the same reason she couldn't bring Tara back. Buffy was nearing death, but Willow saved her life.
Posted by: Lori
quote:
Originally posted by aschucher
I recall seeing the First (as Buffy) touch Spikes face last night. Does that not violate the "FE can't take corporeal form and can't touch anything" rule?
And then there's "Amends", where the First Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
not only touches Angel, h/she/it shoves him. :eek:
No one has explained that to me.
Posted by: Lori
quote:
Originally posted by awexton
Ken: thanks for the excellent summary. Sounds good.
but... was this ever explained on the show, or is it just good detective work on your part (and that of all the other loyal fans)? Especially the part about her not being the true slayer anymore.
I don't know if it was explained on the show. There were many ex cathedra explanations, including this one: http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/011030c.asp
Posted by: rexdart
Thanks for the article Lori.
ILMT: I will concede the interaction with objects point for the potentially astral/First Giles.
Intagibility, as cool as it is, poses a great deal of very basic problems such as simply walking around. But indeed we are not dealing with intagibility here, its a projection (assuming its not actually Giles and we are all just puckered up too tight :D)
You also make an excellent point about Spike. He does respond when she touches him, it is definitely what verifies to him she is real.
So, assuming Giles cannot be the First (appearance with Eve), what are the possibilities? I figure projected spirit from a coma or perhaps an embodiment of the Coven.
I also noticed in the "previously on Buffy" clip at the beginning, the axe wielder did not even begin his stroke downward. What does that mean? Probably nothing.
Posted by: tstowell
quote:
Originally posted by Lori
And then there's "Amends", where the First Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
not only touches Angel, h/she/it shoves him. :eek:
No one has explained that to me.
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
When the First was Warren he said that he couldn't take corporeal form "yet."
I'm sure he will be able to in the near future!
Travis
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by msgoff
- although I believe that Connery's character first says this line after a meeting with Ness in a church, so that does make a lot of sense.
They were on a bridge. Connery was on foot patrol and got on to Ness for throwing a piece of paper into the water. I believe the paper was a note from his wife.
Posted by: awexton
I don't disagree that flatlining does not equal death (or that Buffy did not flatline after being shot), I was just adopting what someone else (presumably someone with a few thousand more posts than me) posited.
However... wasn't Buffy's first death similarly brief, i.e., a flatline. It's been a while since I've seen it (no DVDs here, sorry), but doesn't she drown for like a minute before Xander (or was it Angel?) revives her. Why did that count? (other than the fact that Joss wanted it to.)
Sorry to keep at this point, especially without command of all the facts, but I think others might have the same questions. Thanks to all.
Posted by: TiVaholic
awexton, yes, it was for only a minute, but that was long enough...a new slayer is called as soon as the current one dies. Buffy was technically dead. Back in the Shaman or whatever days when the slayer was created, (remember the first slayer?), there was no CPR. And it was Xander...Angel doesn't breathe.
Posted by: rexdart
Awexton you keep at the point all you like, that is what makes it so fun!
It is worthy to note your remark....
quote:
other than the fact that Joss wanted it to
In the end, we are at the mercy of his imagination. Oh if only I could write stories to keep people guessing and conjecturing about things that I have not actually even said yet!
Posted by: murgatroyd
quote:
Originally posted by dcheesi
IMHO, the appearance of Annoying Southern Accent Girl(TM
That's Annoying Bad Southern Accent Girl. TM
Not only was it a BAD Southern Accent (just where the heck is she supposed to be from) it went in and out like a bad radio signal. :rolleyes:
But there's one interesting speculation that my husband had:
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Is she really trying to do Druscilla's accent?
Jan
Posted by: Mars Rocket
What was up with the ESP stuff between Buffy and Willow (and Xander? Was he talking or thinking in the kitchen?)?
I don't recall them being able to communicate that way before. They all treated it like it was nothing special.
Posted by: Lori
They have all been able to communicate like that since at least the end of season five...but Willow has always been the one to initiate it. What's new is this sort of receptive telepathy thing that Willow seems to have acquired. She's never been able to hear them spontaneously before. Note that Xander didn't hear Buffy at first--only after Willow pulled him in deliberately was he able to participate. So it's still all about Willow--just a more powerful Willow, apparently. Maybe she honed her skills this summer with all the other witches? :)
Posted by: Philosofy
I still think Dawn will be the "Key" to defeating the FE. Speaking of Dawn, when it was revealed that she was not really a person, Buffy saw Dawn's room as it really was: just a extra room filled with junk. Do you think this is still the case, or has Dawn's corporeal existance become more normal?
Posted by: blueshoo
I've thought about that too, but I think Dawn is a person. Buffy saw what Dawn's room looked like without the magic/Dawn being there. But the current reality has been tweaked to include Dawn in it, so she's there and real and so's her room. Sort of an "infinite possibilities lead to infinite future realities" thing, with this reality being changed to include Dawn from the start.
Posted by: Chris Roberts
I was thinking Dawn and Andrew might become an item. Stranger relationships have blossomed on this series.
I don't think Dawn can be a Slayer because she's not really human. She's just a magical construction made to resemble a human in every way. Kind of like the Buffy-bot (my favorite character), but not as fun. :-)
Posted by: GoldenTiger
quote:
Originally posted by tstowell
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
When the First was Warren he said that he couldn't take corporeal form "yet."
I'm sure he will be able to in the near future!
Travis
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
The First never actually shoved Angel in Amends. It reached toward him, and Angel jumped back a little in shock when one of the First's spirits walked toward him (and then through him) when looking like it was going to shove him (he didn't know it couldn't physically interact at that time).
Posted by: SJinBoise
Did anybody catch a couple of episode titles sprinkled into the dialog? I heard "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "The weight of the world." Were there more? Was this just a coincidence or a little practical joke?
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by SJinBoise
Did anybody catch a couple of episode titles sprinkled into the dialog? I heard "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "The weight of the world." Were there more? Was this just a coincidence or a little practical joke?
Typical of a Whedon show. :)
Posted by: DanT
quote:
Originally posted by awexton
I don't disagree that flatlining does not equal death (or that Buffy did not flatline after being shot), I was just adopting what someone else (presumably someone with a few thousand more posts than me) posited.
The reason I counted the hospital flatline as the 3rd death is because during Villains, after Willow saves her, Xander says "You've gotta stop doing this. This dying thing's funny once, maybe twice." Then later, when they're all 3 in the car, Buffy admonishes Willow for using magic, and Willow replies "If I wasn't, you'd be dead." Admittedly, this could be taken either way.
Also, someone else said that Buffy never really flatlined in the hospital, it was just the machines going wacky when Willow showed up. Not true. The lights flicker, but Buffy's heart rate starts climbing really fast, and then flatlines before Willow ever starts working on her. So it's flat the entire time Willow is removing the bullet and healing Buffy. (Of course, when Buffy regains consciousness, there's no heart monitor heard at all. All the equipment is suddenly silent. Oops.)
Posted by: kdmorse
Dawn is indeed a person - because the Monks made it so. They took some mystical green energy, some of Buffy, and put them together to make a 14 year old girl. She may not be entirely normal, she may not be entirely human (depending on your definition), but she is most certainly a person.
I would say that this season so far has been (at times) vaguely sauntering in the direction of Dawn becoming the slayer when (if) Sarah leaves the show. I think we're likely to discover that since all that makes Dawn human came from Buffy, that she has just as much slayer potential as all the others currently camped out in the house. She also seems closest to the right age (although we don't really know how old many of the others are).
-Ken
Posted by: Lori
quote:
Originally posted by GoldenTiger
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
The First never actually shoved Angel in Amends. It reached toward him, and Angel jumped back a little in shock when one of the First's spirits walked toward him (and then through him) when looking like it was going to shove him (he didn't know it couldn't physically interact at that time).
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
I disagree. We watched Amends just a couple of weeks ago, just for this reason, and it is clear in at least one scene that she is touching him and, at the very least, guiding him backward, if not actually shoving him. Her hand is clearly on his chest. It happened at the Mansion toward the end when the first was manefested as Jenny. Now, could have just been a mistake, like being able to see Spike's reflection this season in a shop window. But it happened, mistake or not. If it was a mistake, I wish ME would own up to it, so that we can let it go.
Posted by: TiVoLance
quote:
I was thinking Dawn and Andrew might become an item
Why would Andrew, who is still in love with Dead Warren, go straight for a underage little sister? That would be strange.
Posted by: Xaa
Am I missing somehting here?
I heard that big eyeball creature say that "The Slayer" is the one who made it possible for FE to return. He didn't say Buffy, he said The Slayer.
He also said that he knows the truth of the present and the past and thus knows that the Slayer is Faith, not Buffy.
I think Faith is the answer here.
JMHO
Xaa
Posted by: Dawghows
quote:
Originally posted by Xaa
Am I missing somehting here?
I heard that big eyeball creature say that "The Slayer" is the one who made it possible for FE to return. He didn't say Buffy, he said The Slayer.
He also said that he knows the truth of the present and the past and thus knows that the Slayer is Faith, not Buffy.
I think Faith is the answer here.
JMHO
Xaa
Excellent points.
Posted by: Dawghows
quote:
Originally posted by Lori
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
I disagree. We watched Amends just a couple of weeks ago, just for this reason, and it is clear in at least one scene that she is touching him and, at the very least, guiding him backward, if not actually shoving him. Her hand is clearly on his chest. It happened at the Mansion toward the end when the first was manefested as Jenny. Now, could have just been a mistake, like being able to see Spike's reflection this season in a shop window. But it happened, mistake or not. If it was a mistake, I wish ME would own up to it, so that we can let it go.
Speaking of whether something is a mistake or not, no one has mentioned that one of the SITs said her watcher had once shown her a blurry photo of a vampire. I know Wedon has changed some of the traditional "rules" about vampires to better suit the "Buffyverse," but it seems to me that if one of the rules he kept is that they don't have a reflection, it should follow that they can't be photographed, either.quote:
Originally posted by TiVaholic
awexton, yes, it was for only a minute, but that was long enough... And it was Xander [who performed CPR on Buffy]...Angel doesn't breathe.
And this is another "mistake" I notice sometimes. They occasionally comment (on both shows) about the vamps not needing to breathe. However, after big fight scenes, we fairly regularly see Angel (and sometimes Spike) clearly out-of-breath.
I'm not one of those people who is bothered by these kinds of details, but I do notice them often.
Posted by: Chris Roberts
* If you want to get technical Buffy never died in Season 1. You can't bring someone back from the dead with CPR. There has to be some electrical activity left in the body or its useless. Although leftover mystical Slayer energy could account for that.
* Vamps do breathe or they wouldn't be able to speak (try talking while holding your breath in its really hard) and they wouldn't be able to smoke cigarettes.
"Angel is bloody stupid and his hair sticks straight up." -Buffybot
* Perhaps its only certain types of reflections vamps don't have. Something to do with the way the lighting is set up. Personally I never saw much need to keep that part of the myth anyway. I can't recall them ever identifying a vamp by lack of reflection.
Posted by: Dawghows
*It's understood that vamps can breathe (and eat food, for that matter), but don't need to breathe (or eat food). Therefore, smoking and speaking can be "normal" activities for them. But why would they choose to huff and puff after a fight?
*I don't recall the lack of reflection ever being a plot device on the show either, but they have certainly made it a part of their mythos. I'm just pointing out the fact that the photo comment would seem to be a mistake made by the writers, and no one here mentioned it.
Posted by: dcheesi
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Roberts
* If you want to get technical Buffy never died in Season 1. You can't bring someone back from the dead with CPR. There has to be some electrical activity left in the body or its useless. Although leftover mystical Slayer energy could account for that.
Interesting, I guess you have a point in that a heart with no nerve signals going could never get back into rythm on its own. However, clinical death != brain death, so couldn't the stimulation of CPR jog her nervous system back into action? Anyway, it was obviously enough to fulfill the prophecy.
quote:
* Vamps do breathe or they wouldn't be able to speak (try talking while holding your breath in its really hard) and they wouldn't be able to smoke cigarettes.
"Angel is bloody stupid and his hair sticks straight up." -Buffybot
Yes but they don't have to breathe. So they should never be "out of breath". Unless it's just a force-of-habit thing from his living days (a very long time ago!).
quote:
* Perhaps its only certain types of reflections vamps don't have. Something to do with the way the lighting is set up. Personally I never saw much need to keep that part of the myth anyway. I can't recall them ever identifying a vamp by lack of reflection.
Perhaps the whole reason it was blurry was that it was an experimental "vamp-sensitive" photography method. Otherwise, I would expect the Watchers to have plenty of good vampire images to show to their young pupils...
Posted by: Bryanmc
quote:
Originally posted by dcheesi
Yes but they don't have to breathe. So they should never be "out of breath". Unless it's just a force-of-habit thing from his living days (a very long time ago!).
From Angel:
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
This was proved in the last season series finale when Angel was trapped in a box at the bottom of the ocean. A long few months to hold your breath. ;)
Posted by: Jonathan_S
Two things.
It is possible to take a photograph that involves no reflections; A pinhole camera for example. (Expose film stock behind a pinhole in an otherwise sealed box) That would generate a somewhat blurry photo of a moving object. Or a lower end digital camera, one without a big lens. Vamps images have to be able to be focused by a lens otherwise we [well the show's people] couldn't see them...
2nd, re buffy dieing in season 1. [Asside from the fact that it is cannon that she died] the passing of slayer powers appears to act like a spell; or a computer program ;) And it is old, really old. The old definition of dying was when the heart stopped; so the guiding idea of the spell/power transfering would have been how the creator/originator of it percieved death. i.e. when the heart stopped beating (or probably more accuratly when breathing and pulse stopped)
And yes, I do like trying to create logical reasons for stuff in tv shows. Why do you ask?
Posted by: Dawghows
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan_S
It is possible to take a photograph that involves no reflections; A pinhole camera for example
It has nothing to do with whether or not the photography involves reflections. Traditionally (both on the show and in real-world folklore), vampires are said to have no reflection. In most stories, and definitely in the Buffyverse, this same idea has been extended to include the notion that their image cannot be captured by photographic equipment, either. Hence the special "vampire detectors" installed by Wolfram & Hart on Angel: the video cameras were useless in detecting Angel's unauthorized visits to their building.
Posted by: JYoung
uhm, no....
Angel has been photographed by LAPD survelliance cameras and also by Wolfram and Hart. There was one episode where they showed his picture to Kate.
Posted by: Dawghows
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
uhm, no....
Angel has been photographed by LAPD survelliance cameras and also by Wolfram and Hart. There was one episode where they showed his picture to Kate.
Huh...I stand corrected. I don't have any memory of these events, but I don't doubt you.
Well, in that case, I guess the blurry photo reference on this week's Buffy is okay.
I'll shut up now.
Posted by: DanT
OK, time for some Buffyverse FAQ stuff. I just found this myself, while looking for info on certain parts I remembered being explained, like why Angel's image showed up on a surveillance tape or something along those lines.
How can you photograph/videotape vampires if they don't have reflections?
How many times has Buffy died?
Oh yeah, in Bad Eggs (2x12), Buffy is in the mall riding up an escalator when she notices someone (one of the Gorch brothers) riding down the other side that doesn't have a reflection in the mirrored wall. So the reflection thing has definitely been used as a method of identification/detection at least once. I have a feeling there have been others, but that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
Posted by: Robin
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
uhm, no....
Angel has been photographed by LAPD survelliance cameras and also by Wolfram and Hart. There was one episode where they showed his picture to Kate.
To quote Cordelia:
"It's not that vampires don't photograph, it's that they don't photograph *well*."
Posted by: cello
on deaths: who's to say what definition of death is used by whatever forces call upon a new Slayer? It could be cessation of heartbeat or breathing for x amount of time. Seems silly to try to use modern medical definitions too strictly in these cases.
Here's a random question: how does a new slayer know when they've been called? We have all these slayerettes slumbering at Buffy's place - if Faith dies, how do they know who the new chosen one is?
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by cello
if Faith dies, how do they know who the new chosen one is?
Whichever one can pick up Xander's car? :D ;)
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by DanT
Oh, and as for Buffy just walking in there and freeing Spike, it's been established that the First Evil can't actually touch anything. So it's not a direct threat to her. And she seems to not have a problem kicking the asses of the Bringers, so until the First summons something else, there was really nothing to stop her. Sure, they probably should have shown her fighting some of the Bringers, but maybe they were all still out wandering around after everyone escaped from Buffy's house. :)
Buffy comes in bearing one of the Bringer's knives - those curvy knives that are, I believe, a kind of Arabian knife known as a jambiyah, when she rescues Spike. I took that to mean, that she had just finished beating the stuffing out of the Bringers that were guarding Spike, and was using one of their knives to cut Spike's bonds.
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by rexdart
Buffy sails away on the white ship to the Gray Havens and into theatrical anonymity!
<Tolkien Geek Mode>
Correction: Buffy takes the white ship from the Gray Havens and sails away on the white ship to Valinor.
</Tolkien Geek Mode>
Posted by: artwalker
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Belboz
I liked Buffy's line which was the same as the Masters line from Season 1.
"Here endeth the lesson"
Ah, that would explain it. I thought she was quoting from Sean Connery in 'The Untouchables!'
Posted by: unoriginal
Sorry if this was already posted, but did anyone else notice that Noodles :D was not affected by the "vampires have to be invited in" thing. My guess is that it was around before whatever is cursing the vampires,cursed them with that. (I am assuming it is the PTB doing the cursing) I say cursing, because I don't think vampires are naturally harmed by sunlight, holy water, crosses etc. When Angel travels to... Well I can't remember the name but it was that dimension Lorn is from, anyway he was not effected by sunlight. I am guessing that whatever is causing the curse only controls what happens in the Buffy universe, and no other. So when Angel traveled to that other dimension he was no longer bound by that curse. Noddles had to be called from somewhere, maybe somewhere that was out of reach of the PTB.
Posted by: sschwart
My guess about the breathing, is that vampires do not *have* to breathe. However, since many things they do require breathing, and they rather do want to *appear* human, they normally do breathe. It's probably an involuntary muscle reaction, much like breathing is in humans. So, after a fight, they breathe heavily. However, they can choose to hold their breath, much like we can... The only difference is, they don't begin to suffer from lack of oxygen, and have the need to take a breath. They can hold it as long as they need/want to.
As for video/photography, the process is different than reflection... So, they should be able to appear.
And, why is it that Buffy doesn't just regularly drop things into people's arms to make sure they're alive... "Here. Hold this!". Seems a damn easy way to tell whether they're the FE or not.
-Steve
Posted by: dcheesi
quote:
Originally posted by sschwart
And, why is it that Buffy doesn't just regularly drop things into people's arms to make sure they're alive... "Here. Hold this!". Seems a damn easy way to tell whether they're the FE or not.
Yeah, or just poke them? A friendly pat on the shoulder, perhaps? Although Bad Southern Accent Girl didn't actually touch anything, I find it hard to believe that she could lay right between two other slayerettes without either of them bumping *through* her and thus noticing.
Posted by: Chris Roberts
quote:
Originally posted by unoriginal
Sorry if this was already posted, but did anyone else notice that Noodles :D was not affected by the "vampires have to be invited in" thing.
Isn't Noodles a sort of cro-magnon Vampire? If that is true it kind of explains it since nobody had private residences in his time. All the caves were just kind of there and although the idea of cavemen grunting and waving visitors in would be amusing I don't think its historically accurate. Noodles pre-dates the more evolved vampires that have the invitation required problem. At least that was my take on it.
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