TiVo Community Forums Archives - The gradual end of TiVo hacking?

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The gradual end of TiVo hacking?
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Posted by: Mighty LoPan

First off, let me just say that I hope I'm wrong. I'm writing this in the hope that I can be convinced that TiVo hacking will continue with the (unofficial) support of TiVo.

That said, let me sum up what I see as evidence that TiVo is slowly and silently turning away from the hacking community.

1 ) Series 2 is released - hardware improvements, and as we're discovering, changes designed to stop the hacking. I say this because of the self-checking code that replaces modified startup files. (I'm not going into technical details here - I'm certainly not the expert.)

2 ) In December, a way to defeat the Series 2 was discovered, and published on this message board. This would eventually allow Series 2 to do everything that can be done on a Series 1. The hole was quickly plugged, bringing us back to #1 above.

3 ) At CES, the HMO option was announced. It includes, among other things, a functionality similar to TiVoWeb. Since (as far as I know) a good chunk of TiVo owners are the tech savvy type who aren't afraid to go through the steps of setting up TiVoWeb themselves, it would be necessary for TiVo to stop us from using it if HMO is going to be a success. I think it's reasonable to assume that TiVo planned Series 2 with this in mind, which explains #1 and #2.

4 ) Finally, why are they holding back the 3.2 backdoor code? All the past codes have been easy. I don't know if they released them to the public, but if they didn't, they were so simple that you could have guessed them. But now the TiVoCrack is suddenly unable to find the code. Are they afraid someone is going to find a way to open the Series 2 once the code is found?

Could this be the end of TiVo's support of the hacking community? It doesn't make sense for them to try to prevent Series 1 hacking, since they've got nothing to gain by it, but what about Series 2? I bought a Series 2 a year ago with hopes of running TiVoWeb - not just running it (I'll be able to do that with HMO), but developing for it. Now that's never going to happen with Series 2.

Please, tell me I'm wrong about all of this. I want to be wrong.

Posted by: PrimeRisk

I don't believe TiVo really cares one way or another about the hacking of TiVo hardware (added capacity, TurboNet, added memory). They probably care little about hacking on the software because if you break it, you're the one responsible, not them.

What they do care about it their contracts and strategic alliances with the hardware manufacturers and networks. I'm sure Sony and Phillips are completely PO'd that you can add capacity to TiVo. Since adding a 2nd drive to a TiVo to add capacity is pretty much as simple as adding one to a standard computer, why would most people every buy anything but the very cheapest TiVo and upgrade it to a capacity larger than you can buy at *ANY* price from the maufacturer. If I were representing the hardware maufacturer I would demand mechanisims in the software that would prevent adding additional capacity. Just like the networks and other content providers have demanded that video extraction be blocked and content sharing be limited.

Hey, everyone still wants to make a buck and this is how they make sure they can. I would expect the future holds a virtually unhackable TiVo. Probably not the Series 2, maybe not the HDTiVo, but it is coming.

Posted by: R. Kalia

quote:
Originally posted by PrimeRisk
Hey, everyone still wants to make a buck and this is how they make sure they can. I would expect the future holds a virtually unhackable TiVo. Probably not the Series 2, maybe not the HDTiVo, but it is coming.

This may or may not be the best way to make a buck. TiVo has gotten this far partly because of evangelists who have spread the word about TiVo after discovering all the fun things they can do inside it. Sell a closed appliance, and it's useful but not so interesting.

Maybe TiVo is now too established to need the hacking community, much as Microsoft got too big (years ago) to need the basement programmer community, or maybe they're just fooling themselves.

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by R. Kalia

Maybe TiVo is now too established to need the hacking community, much as Microsoft got too big (years ago) to need the basement programmer community, or maybe they're just fooling themselves.

I've had that thought too...at some point, if they want to survive as a company (and keep their corporate customers reasonably happy as PrimeRisk described), they have to make sure that the system is reasonably secure.

The best "happy medium" IMHO would be an API. Let TiVO make some money on other people's work. Imagine if the underground got their hands on an API, and coud write legitimate caller-ID displays, free space indicators, advanced search screens (complete with regular expressions). The author would give the code to TiVo for usability testing and determine a price they want to charge, of which TiVo would get a fee. If the underground wanted to make it free, TiVo could charge a small flat fee for the installation of said programs.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd absolutely love for TiVO to take the API approach and think that its an inevitablility. As PVR's become more and more mainstream, they'll undoubtedly be facing more and more competition.

Posted by: Binkish

I've wanted a Series II but will not buy one because of the hacking prob. I want to be able to do what I want with my machine. If I can't, i'll just not buy a new one.

Posted by: korn316

Personally, look at the tivo 40 hour and tivo 80 hour. How can tivo know that you replaced the 40 hour drive with a 120 drive? Tivo also stopped putting the sticker on some of their tivo models, and under system information it states, 87 hours variable. In my opinion series 2 owners are fine. In my opinion, if you have a direct tv/tivo I can't see someone enjoying it with only 35 hours. It would seem like a must-hack situation.

One day hacking will end, but I wouldn't worry about it now, series 1 or 2

Posted by: TreborPugly

quote:
Originally posted by PrimeRisk
I'm sure Sony and Phillips are completely PO'd that you can add capacity to TiVo. Since adding a 2nd drive to a TiVo to add capacity is pretty much as simple as adding one to a standard computer, why would most people every buy anything but the very cheapest TiVo and upgrade it to a capacity larger than you can buy at *ANY* price from the maufacturer.

I don't think this is true. I'm sure that manufacturers pick a hard drive size that has the best return on investment. Why bother building something for $40 more if you can only charge $40 more for it? If people want to go out and buy a bigger hard drive and throw it in, Sony and Phillips lose nothing.

However, the average person does NOT know how to swap a hard drive, and even among those of us who can swap a hard drive, only a small percentage is willing to risk losing their warranty. If the basic Tivo is under $400, I think people will be hesitant to upgrade themselves or even to buy pre-upgraded units from third parties.

Anything upgraded by a third party will only be hardware supported by that third party, and I'm much less trusting of small add-on companies than I am of big names like Sony, Phillips or Tivo.

As long as the hardware manufacturers keep coming out with size increases in the base model every couple of years, I think they'll keep up fine. I would consider upgrading my Series II after a couple of years, but at that point, it might seem cost affective to get the latest $300 new Tivo.

Furthermore, I think that the mass-market audience will be fine with 60 or more hours, which I'm sure all future hardware will do.

Treb.

Posted by: R. Kalia

In the Panasonic DMR-HS2 (basic PVR plus DVD-writer), there is only a 40GB hard disk. The firmware will accept a larger IDE drive but it will use only 40GB of it. Why? because, at least in Japan and probably soon in the US, Panasonic will SELL a firmware+HD upgrade to 80GB. Of course, it costs five times the price of the HD.

So it is not true that "Sony and Phillips lose nothing". By using an open architecture designed by TiVo, they have lost the chance to charge for upgrades.

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by MarcPerkel
I, am currently developing a PC based Tivo Replacement, it features better compression, free guide data (From your choice of three internet data sources [Although ultimately all are Tribune].), and a published open API set.

How many nerds out there ready to take PVR's into a true open source world.

Knowledge is free, let's keep it that way.

I have to admit, I'd like to do that some day too. But there's no chance in heck it's going to be as reliable as a TiVo, as cheap as a TiVo, or meet with such high post-purchase wife acceptance factor.

Furthermore, the guide data is free only because they have not clamped down, because there are not that many people using it. Let me turn it around -- what do you think would happen if TiVo offered a free subscription that sucked down zap2it's guide listing with the new Series 2? Can you think of anything that would bring a more sudden lawsuit? Even if it were found to be legal, you can bet that they would foil every attempt to read their data by manipulating the pages (aka Instant Messenger co-existance).

I don't think anyone has a problem with people wanting to roll their own, but for a lot of us, TiVo is just dandy the way it is, monthly fee and all.

Posted by: bsnelson

quote:
Originally posted by jasonl99
Furthermore, the guide data is free only because they have not clamped down, because there are not that many people using it. Let me turn it around -- what do you think would happen if TiVo offered a free subscription that sucked down zap2it's guide listing with the new Series 2? Can you think of anything that would bring a more sudden lawsuit? Even if it were found to be legal, you can bet that they would foil every attempt to read their data by manipulating the pages (aka Instant Messenger co-existance).

I think this is the key that the subscription "complainers" are missing. Just because you can get listings at zap2it doesn't mean that they are "free" in every sense of the word.

<analogy mode on>

Consider ketchup at your local McDonalds or other fast food joint. You go in, buy some fries, and grab some ketchup packets. Hey, the ketchup is free, right? Just ask the drone behind the counter!

Now, if you were to take some (LARGE) number of packets, empty them into a bottle, and take it home, you could have a free bottle of ketchup, right? I mean, come on, the packets are free, right?

Taking it further, I've never seen a sign that says the ketchup is only for paying customers. I could just walk in, get 500 packets, squeeze them into a bottle and have free ketchup!

But we don't do this, and if we tried, it wouldn't work for long, would it? Think about that.

</analogy mode>

Brad

Posted by: ellinj

When I first heard about TivoGuard, my first reaction was if Tivo wants that to work they need the boxes to be more secure. Personally I am ok with this as long as we see new features come about because of it and they don't mess with the ability to add new hard disks. Especially since this is the device that seems to fail the most and Tivo/Sony doesn't seem to be willing to sell them on their own.

Posted by: feldon23

There's nothing gradual about it. Series 2 six months from now will be a closed box except for adding hard drives.

Posted by: Mighty LoPan

I was hoping that by now, someone would jump in and refute all my points, one by one. I guess that's not happening. I suppose there's still hope to have a modchip, if all else fails. And at least they didn't do something to prevent us from upgrading our recording space. All in all, it could be a lot worse.

Posted by: Agent86

I have a hunch that adding recording space will be around for a while. Espicially with the HDTiVo coming, people want or need more space.

It also doesn't really effect TiVo that much, since you can really DO anything with it but add a new drive or remove a dead one.

It basicially just keeps customers happy at their own risk.

- Agent 86

Posted by: PrimeRisk

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly
I don't think this is true. I'm sure that manufacturers pick a hard drive size that has the best return on investment. Why bother building something for $40 more if you can only charge $40 more for it? If people want to go out and buy a bigger hard drive and throw it in, Sony and Phillips lose nothing.

That's exactly the point, they don't charge +$40 for something that cost +$40. They charge +$200 for something that costs them +$30. The price difference between a 40G HDD and an 80G HDD is less than $30, yet they charge $199 for the 40 hour TiVo and $399 for the 80 Hour. Sony and Philips lose HUGE when someone buys a 40 hour because the purchaser knows it can be upgraded to 140 hour for about $100.

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly

However, the average person does NOT know how to swap a hard drive, and even among those of us who can swap a hard drive, only a small percentage is willing to risk losing their warranty. If the basic Tivo is under $400, I think people will be hesitant to upgrade themselves or even to buy pre-upgraded units from third parties.

Sure, some people also take their cars to full-service gas stations for fuel. But with the warranty being only 90 days long and the availability of others who are willing to do the upgrade for you, this is not much of an issue. I believe that a good percentage of the TiVo demographic is comfortable opening up an electronic device to upgrade it. The hinsdale upgrade faq is really set up to let virtually anyone who can hold a screwdriver upgrade their TiVo.

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly

Anything upgraded by a third party will only be hardware supported by that third party, and I'm much less trusting of small add-on companies than I am of big names like Sony, Phillips or Tivo.

Well, after 90 days no one supports the TiVo at all (unless you buy an extended warranty). If one of the hardware manufacturers started offering an authorized upgrade path, I believe many people would take advantage of it. At the moment they do not. I speculate this is by design as they would rather have you buy a 2nd TiVo instead of augement your current one.

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly

As long as the hardware manufacturers keep coming out with size increases in the base model every couple of years, I think they'll keep up fine. I would consider upgrading my Series II after a couple of years, but at that point, it might seem cost affective to get the latest $300 new Tivo.

Furthermore, I think that the mass-market audience will be fine with 60 or more hours, which I'm sure all future hardware will do.
Treb.

I feel that the 60 hour TiVo, a recent addition, is barely enough space to fit what an average family would program it to do. My original TiVo was only 13 hours, holy cow was that not enough space. I was one of the very early people to hack-grade my TiVo with more space. I think the average target market for this product is consumer-savvy and value-minded. These people understand the final value point of buying the cheapest model and upgrading it for pennies on the dollar compared with buying the high-end model to begin with.

Posted by: Agent86

I agree with what you are saying - because that is exactly what I did.

I bought the 40 hour, and then tricked it out with two 120 GB drives.

But - on the flip side - I know a bunch of people who bought TiVos and absolutely will NOT open them up. The only thing they touch is the remote control. For them, it is a black box. What is in there is in there and that is that.

I would bet that - on the whole - most of TiVos customers are like that. Otherwise everyday folk wouldn't be asking TiVo things like "Can I take my TiVo anywhere to get more hours added?".

I think that what you see on these forums are more tech friendly folk. I mean - after all - we're interacting on a bulletin board on the Internet. We're the kinda folk most like to pop this thing open and blow it up.

Heck - just check some sigs on this forum - a bunch of people haven't touched their TiVos since they bought them.

- Agent 86

Posted by: papabrody

IMO TIVO had several distinctions in its early years:

1)One of the first to market

2) Great Interface

3) Great Software engine

4) Ability to Hack/Upgrade

5) Constantly improving PVR feature set.

I think #1 is no longer relevant, #2 and #3 still hold true and they are abandoning #4 and #5. The company has definately shifted from focusing on the product to focusing on it revenue generation such as marketing alliances with BB, other alliances with AOL and NBC, Premium services at a Premium price, and maybe this is a good thing in general. TIVO is in the business to make money, but it is sad for us nostalgic types. I have never been a Mac person, but I am still amazed by all the devotion that Mac users have to the product. I attribute some of this to my impression that Apple has created some great products and still does. I wish that I felt the same about TIVO, but my impression is that in a couple of years it will be just another black box CE appliance in my home theater system and when it becomes obsolete I will be looking at all my options.