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TiVo Community Forum Archive 1 (http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/index.php)
- TiVo Upgrade Center (http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=25)
-- Using TiVo as a video server for TV station (http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=168072)

Posted by channel63 on 03-30-2004 07:31 PM:

Using TiVo as a video server for TV station

I am building a small tv station. I need an inexpensive way to get my video to my tranmitter site on a mountain, and then play it back for broadcast, according to my schedule.

I'm wondering if there is any way a TiVo unit could be used. I would like to house the TiVo unit at my transmitter site and be able to load the video to it from via DSL from my office. I would like to be able to program it remotely from my office.

Are there TiVo units that could do this, or are there ways they could be modified to accomplish this?

Thank you.

Posted by tivoupgrade on 03-30-2004 07:40 PM:

Re: Using TiVo as a video server for TV station

quote:
Originally posted by channel63
I am building a small tv station. I need an inexpensive way to get my video to my tranmitter site on a mountain, and then play it back for broadcast, according to my schedule.

I'm wondering if there is any way a TiVo unit could be used. I would like to house the TiVo unit at my transmitter site and be able to load the video to it from via DSL from my office. I would like to be able to program it remotely from my office.

Are there TiVo units that could do this, or are there ways they could be modified to accomplish this?

Thank you.


You can definitely do it by networking an older TiVo with a CacheCard or TurboNet card; then you would need to install mfs_ftp on it so that you could "push" videos to it.

Similarly, you would need a unit that you would record the original videos to, from whereever you are, and then you could mfs_ftp to pull the videos off, and move them to your remote location.

you'll have your work cut out for you, however; not much discussion about mfs_ftp on this forum, but if you do a search on google for mfs_ftp you'll find the right places to go.

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Posted by channel63 on 03-30-2004 07:47 PM:

Thanks for your reply.

Once I have the video loaded to my remote location, will I be able to schedule individual programs to play at specific times?

Posted by tivoupgrade on 03-30-2004 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by channel63
Thanks for your reply.

Once I have the video loaded to my remote location, will I be able to schedule individual programs to play at specific times?


That would be tricky. Probably a number of ways to do it, but no simple one that I can think of off the cuff. You'll have remote access to control the unit through TiVoWeb; you might find someone who can write a module for TiVoWeb that can control the unit with some cron-based scheduling. You could build a queue ahead of time and then let it go do its thing.

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Posted by channel63 on 03-30-2004 08:39 PM:

This is already way over my head. Do you know where I could find someone who could help me put this together? (I'm in SW Oregon).

Posted by tivoupgrade on 03-30-2004 09:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by channel63
This is already way over my head. Do you know where I could find someone who could help me put this together? (I'm in SW Oregon).


What is your budget?

We can talk off-line, but I could very easily put together an RFI for you that would we could put out on these forums, as well as a few others to see if there are some programmers willing to the legwork for you.

I'm hesitant to take on an integration job of this nature as it strays too far from the things we need to take on, but I would guess that for a few thousand dollars (and that would include a couple of standalone TiVo systems, we could put together a system where you somewhat reliably move videos from one unit to another and remotely schedule them.

The part I'm not understanding is how you actually would network them if one unit is going to be on a mountain - are you planning on running networking cables from one site to another?

I've got a bunch of other questions too, but they are a bit off-topic. First and foremost - will you have the rights to rebroadcast these programs? How are you funding this effort?

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Posted by Robert S on 03-30-2004 09:23 PM:

Is a TiVo really the ideal solution for this? I would have thought a PC-based solution would be much better suited.

He suggests using 'DSL' to upload the video files to the server, but normal consumer DSL connections are assymetrical, with very slow upload speeds. Unless you're planning to broadcast very highly compressed streams, that's going to be a problem.

However, a PC opens up the possibility of using one or more disk caddies. Drives could be prepared in advance and swapped over on occasional site visits.

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Posted by channel63 on 03-30-2004 10:03 PM:

This will be a low power, licensed tv station. I'll be broadcasting local sports and events as well public domain movies and various feeds I could pull programming from. I will only be broadcsting material I have the rights to.

The problem is that I would like to send my programming to my site from my office which is 30 miles from my transmitter site. I think the ideal would be to stream to my transmitter over fiber optics. Also, I could use a series of microwave transmitters. But both are cost-prohibitive.

I do not have a large budget. I've already put out a lot to purchase the construction permit, transmitter and antenna. I'm looking for a shoe-string way to get my video to my transmitter site.

I suppose I could just go to the actual site, but this would not be ideal because of the distance, and the bad roads that wind their way up the mountain to the site. I wouldn't want to have to go there regularly.

But I thought that maybe I could have a video server at the transmitter site, and program it to play back my programming at designated times. I was thinking I could work from my "studio" (really a small office 30 miles away) and do all my commercial dubbing offline. Then when I had a program ready to air, would send the file over the internet to my computer or TiVo unit at the transmitter site, and somehow program it to play at the specified time.

There are some ways I could minimize the amount of video I would have to upload. I would be taking some satellite feeds and could hook up a receiver at the transmitter site and would be able to rebroadcast my satellite feed live. But I would still have to figure out a way to insert my own commercials.

What are the problems with sending video over DSL? I won't be streaming it--just want to load it on the hard drive for play back.

But overall, the main point is that I'm trying to do this as econmically as possible, and it seems that if I could send my finished video from my office to some kind of playback device at my transmitter, and also have some way to control it as if I were there, that although this might not be ideal, it would be an econmical and effective way to go.

Posted by tivoupgrade on 03-30-2004 10:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by channel63
This will be a low power, licensed tv station. I'll be broadcasting local sports and events as well public domain movies and various feeds I could pull programming from. I will only be broadcsting material I have the rights to.

The problem is that I would like to send my programming to my site from my office which is 30 miles from my transmitter site. I think the ideal would be to stream to my transmitter over fiber optics. Also, I could use a series of microwave transmitters. But both are cost-prohibitive.

I do not have a large budget. I've already put out a lot to purchase the construction permit, transmitter and antenna. I'm looking for a shoe-string way to get my video to my transmitter site.

I suppose I could just go to the actual site, but this would not be ideal because of the distance, and the bad roads that wind their way up the mountain to the site. I wouldn't want to have to go there regularly.

But I thought that maybe I could have a video server at the transmitter site, and program it to play back my programming at designated times. I was thinking I could work from my "studio" (really a small office 30 miles away) and do all my commercial dubbing offline. Then when I had a program ready to air, would send the file over the internet to my computer or TiVo unit at the transmitter site, and somehow program it to play at the specified time.

There are some ways I could minimize the amount of video I would have to upload. I would be taking some satellite feeds and could hook up a receiver at the transmitter site and would be able to rebroadcast my satellite feed live. But I would still have to figure out a way to insert my own commercials.

What are the problems with sending video over DSL? I won't be streaming it--just want to load it on the hard drive for play back.

But overall, the main point is that I'm trying to do this as econmically as possible, and it seems that if I could send my finished video from my office to some kind of playback device at my transmitter, and also have some way to control it as if I were there, that although this might not be ideal, it would be an econmical and effective way to go.


More and more, the TiVo piece of this seems to be more of a 'square peg in a round hole'

I think Robert is on the right track by suggesting a PC

Build yourself a media server; perhaps use something like SnapStream; get a fixed IP address, log in remotely and move files over your DSL connection - it will be slow, and if you feel up for a hike, you can always bring a few disk drives full of stuff with you; important thing to do here will be to have a nice server and the ability to get to your system remotely. Really the only difference here than in any other scenario where one wants to remotely access and manage your server is that this particular server will have a video-out that will go into your broadcast components...

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Posted by Robert S on 03-30-2004 10:29 PM:

The problem with DSL is simply bandwidth. Typically you get 1/2 Mbit/s downstream (which is plenty fast enough), but only 128 kbit/s upstream. Bearing in mind that 128k is the peak speed the connection can handle, not any kind of measurement of what you'll get, things become difficult.

What would you consider as the minimum usable MPEG-2 data rate? It's got to be around 3 Mbit/s.

Can your plan work if it takes a day to upload an hour of video?

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Posted by channel63 on 03-30-2004 11:55 PM:

I didn't know it would take so long to upload video.

I called tech support at my DSL provider and from what I could figure, it would take 6 to 8 hours per hour of video.

This would be okay for uploading commercials, but not for hours and hours of video.

Maybe I could do a weekly trip to the mountain top for now.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I have a much clearer idea of the situation now.

Posted by HTH on 03-31-2004 12:14 AM:

How long is your broadcast day?

You might also have to clear it with TiVo in case the TiVo logo ever accidentally appears in your broadcast (menus, BSoNS, TiVomat... er, Ipreview icons, etc.). Otherwise it might be interpreted that they were implicitly sponsoring your station. (Or just hack the hell out of it to eliminate all TiVo-related artwork.)

It might be easier to stream the data through a hacked Xbox than a TiVo.

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Posted by Robert S on 03-31-2004 12:20 AM:

Well, I'm in the UK, so I'm not ideally placed to comment on what your local internet infrastructure could do (perhaps it's possible to get DSL with more upload speed, although, from the sound of it, your telcos are as bad as ours in this respect).

The only 'real' data point I have is the ReplayTV owners who commented that it takes them about a day to upload an hour of video using their RPTV's WAN sharing function. I have no expectation that you'd do much better, particularly as you're preparing material for broadcast.

Even if 6:1 or 8:1 is a credible figure (that is, lets assume that this uses the right numbers for your video data rates and connection data rates), does it represent what you'll actually see in day-to-day use of your system? Remember, although the DSL connection connects you directly to the hub, every connection between there and the remote station is shared with other users - what happens when the next LoveBug hits?

Also, you seem to be thinking in terms of controlling the station and uploading video over the same link. The upload will soak up so much of the available bandwidth (at the very least, most of the outgoing bandwidth from your office) that a shell session is likely to be painfully sluggish.

I hope I'm not coming across as too negative, I don't think any of these issues are insurmountable. Infact, if you get it right, it could work very nicely. However, you should be aware that this isn't something that most people do with their PC's and internet connection, and with very good reason! So make sure you research it very thoroughly before you spend money.


Also, have a look at some of the things people have been doing with directional WiFi links. If you can find suitable spots on the ridges (for line-of-sight both sides) for solar-powered WiFi stations, you might be able to do thirty miles in one or two hops.

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Posted by phoenix_one on 04-01-2004 10:22 PM:

If you are concerned about video server storage, check this 1 terabyte external drive.

It should suit your need.

http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10118

Posted by HTH on 04-01-2004 10:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by phoenix_one
If you are concerned about video server storage, check this 1 terabyte external drive.

It should suit your need.

http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10118
I only have two questions: "How much," and "Give it to me."

(I know, $1,199.00. So how much for just the case?)

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─├┤┬├┤─ There is no spool.
└─────┘

If you are dissatisfied with your life, return unused portion for partial refund.

Posted by Robert S on 04-01-2004 10:34 PM:

I think storage is the least of his problems. A normal PC has 4 IDE connectors, so you can easily put a pair of 300Gb drives in caddies. You might want to have a CD/DVD drive, which would take up a connector, although it would probably be more sensible to copy on to hard drive at home, freeing up another connector for a total of three 300Gb drives that could be removable plus a fixed disk for the OS.

That gets you a terabyte of portable storage for a lot less than Lacie are asking.

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