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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<
Which option most closely resembles your thoughts on native passthrough?
This poll is closed.
I will not buy a HR10-250 until it can do native passthrough 42 18.75%
Native passthrough would be cool, but I'll survive without it. 157 70.09%
I like my TiVo like I like my Ronco-matic. Set it and forget it! 25 11.16%
Total: 224 votes 100%
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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:30 AM
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dswallow
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"Native to the received signal"?

I suppose whoever first used the terminology might have needed a single word to fit on some display. My exposure to it was on the Zenith SAT-HD520 (same as the Sony HD200), and it's similarly used on the next-year models from Sony and LG Electronics.

They also have "Hybrid 1" and "Hybrid 2" which are just Native mode but with HD material being locked to 720p or 1080i all the time.

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scottie is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:45 AM
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scottie
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Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
I'm not following. What would be best for your TV is 788p. Rather than native, you'd be best off with that as an option. Native would be the second best option.



No....what is best for the tv is for it to receive the signal in its orginal format with no conversion by the Tivo receiver. Should be simple but on this receiver is isn't is in my opinion.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:48 AM
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GoodSpike
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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8396

quote:
Originally posted by scottie
No....what is best for the tv is for it to receive the signal in its orginal format with no conversion by the Tivo receiver.


You're assuming the TV would convert it better than the Tivo.

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dr_mal is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:51 AM
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dr_mal
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quote:
Originally posted by scottie
No....what is best for the tv is for it to receive the signal in its orginal format with no conversion by the Tivo receiver. Should be simple but on this receiver is isn't is in my opinion.

That wouldn't be best for my TV. Anything in 480i or 720p would just appear as gibberish on my TV.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:54 AM
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GoodSpike
TiVo Forum Special Member

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Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8396

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
That wouldn't be best for my TV. Anything in 480i or 720p would just appear as gibberish on my TV.


You're assuming your TV wouldn't enjoy that!

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:56 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
You're assuming the TV would convert it better than the Tivo.
For those whose TV did convert it better, wouldn't it be better to have the option than to suffer vocal people talking about how crappy the picture looks from the receiver?

No question in my mind that my TV is one of those that does a better job at conversion. I know I've gotten 20 or 30 people at AVSForum deals to get the same model from the dealer I got mine from.

So there's potentially 20 or 30 people just in my circle of acquaintances who would be preferring this feature be available if desired.

I doubt anyone is really saying "I don't want this feature to exist at all" though, right?

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scottie is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 05:58 AM
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scottie
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
You're assuming the TV would convert it better than the Tivo.


I don't really think that is an assumption on my part. I would consider it a fact. Also, converting a signal twice only serves to degrade the signal quality.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 06:00 AM
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GoodSpike
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8396

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
I doubt anyone is really saying "I don't want this feature to exist at all" though, right?


I don't know that I'd assume that. There are a lot of people that like to control the choices other people make!

I'd say it's a good option to have, but one many or even most people don't need for one reason or another (which is probably why it isn't in the initial release).

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 06:09 AM
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GoodSpike
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I just checked an the MyHD card offers three 768p resolutions, but no 788p choice. I'm not sure what the 1280x768 is for, but the other two are 4:3 and 16:9

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-25-2004 06:10 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
I just checked an the MyHD card offers three 768p resolutions, but no 788p choice. I'm not sure what the 1280x768 is for, but the other two are 4:3 and 16:9
A common PC monitor "widescreen" resolution. I think it's common among some plasma displays too.

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MichaelK is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 06:43 AM
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MichaelK
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Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by scottie
I don't really think that is an assumption on my part. I would consider it a fact. Also, converting a signal twice only serves to degrade the signal quality.


scottie-

i think the point was that although YOUR set does a better job but its not clear that ALL displays do a better job then the TIVO.

Also for folks with 768 or 788 displays- there will be a conversion no matter what- so i think native mode almost definately makes more sense. But there are displays that have native resolutions of 720p or 1080i so then its very possible that the Tivo can do as good a job or better than the display by making all the coices into the native resolution of the display (especially if the display is older).

Someone posted above how it is so STUPID of Hughes. I would say it started out years ago with STUPID people who allowed too many choices for ATSC and then only got compounded by the display manufacturers who made inputs that cant take all the flavors. And I cant for the life of me figure out what moron decided that these awesome looking plasmas and projectors that have native resolutions that arent 720p- you cant even put a 720p signal into the things without it needing to get converted- probably that is the reason the plasma makers have such great stretch modes- they have no choice but to screw with every signal input and covenrt it to their non ATSC display. Then i cant totally follow but it seems some people have displays which decide to strecth of not to stretch based upon the input reslution without any user input allowed- now that seems pretty silly to me Hughes was just another in a long line of dumb decisions made by a long line of people in this conversion to digital tv.


All that being said- adding the option to the Tivo would help remediate a bunch of poor deicions made by others so hopefully it will be a short time before it is implemented.

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davsherm is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 07:32 AM
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davsherm
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Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
"Native to the received signal"?

I suppose whoever first used the terminology might have needed a single word to fit on some display. My exposure to it was on the Zenith SAT-HD520 (same as the Sony HD200), and it's similarly used on the next-year models from Sony and LG Electronics.

They also have "Hybrid 1" and "Hybrid 2" which are just Native mode but with HD material being locked to 720p or 1080i all the time.


I have the Sony HD200, and I use the Hybrid 2 setting because some Dtv SD channels look terrible converted up to 1080i. One reason why I would like to see this type of setting on the HD Tivo would be to record something in SD at 480i followed by something in HD at 1080i without having to manually change modes on the HD Tivo. Hopefully this is something they can fix easily and quickly, unlike some of the other nagging issues on some of the other platforms that went on for far too long (audio dropouts?).

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jautor is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 07:47 AM
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jautor
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quote:
Originally posted by scottie
I don't really think that is an assumption on my part. I would consider it a fact. Also, converting a signal twice only serves to degrade the signal quality.


How does the way the TiVo work cause the signal to be converted twice? I mean, everything is converted to a single, selectable output format. You pick the output that is the correct one for your TV. For me, that's 720p (DLP). If something comes in 720p - no conversion. If it's 480 or 1080i, it's converted to 720p. One conversion. Done.

Am I missing something?

Jeff

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 07:50 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by jautor
Am I missing something?


#1 HR10-250 converts it.

#2 Your display converts it.

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jautor is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 08:30 AM
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jautor
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Oh, ok, I see now - if your display is not a CRT nor a 'native HD resolution' fixed pixel display (aka many plasmas).

Jeff

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ethan is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:00 AM
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ethan
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quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
No question in my mind that my TV is one of those that does a better job at conversion.


I believe the same of my TV, and would like the TiVo to pass-through the "broadcast resolution" to be scaled to 1080i by my TV.

My TV only allows non-linear stretch modes when in 480i/p. Since I'll be new to HD (when it finally arrives!), I'm not familiar with how D* broadcasts. Are all non-SD broadcasts in 16x9? If not, I'd like to receive broadcasts in their native resolutions, but with the ability to override this setting (typically dropping to 480i/p) without too much hassle in order to take advantage on non-linear stretching.

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:03 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
My TV only allows non-linear stretch modes when in 480i/p. Since I'll be new to HD (when it finally arrives!), I'm not familiar with how D* broadcasts. Are all non-SD broadcasts in 16x9? If not, I'd like to receive broadcasts in their native resolutions, but with the ability to override this setting (typically dropping to 480i/p) without too much hassle in order to take advantage on non-linear stretching.
All 720p and 1080i broadcasts are widescreen. However the stations sometimes do show upconverted SD material. But the stations are broadcasting pillar-boxes as part of the picture to make up for the SD 4x3 material being sent in a format that's only widescreen, so you really can't get rid of them since even at 480i the pillar-boxes are squeezed into the 4x3 frame with an even smaller picture in the middle, thus you end up having to linearly stretch or else you get really thin people with a non-linear stretch.

The broadcasters are doing their very best to ensure that somehow, somewhere, people can't get the picture they'd prefer to be able to see.

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ethan is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:13 AM
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ethan
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quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
All 720p and 1080i broadcasts are widescreen. However the stations sometimes do show upconverted SD material. But the stations are broadcasting pillar-boxes as part of the picture to make up for the SD 4x3 material being sent in a format that's only widescreen...


thx for the info. Luckily, I won't have to worry about it until this possible native "solution" is in place.

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CyberTom is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:26 AM
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CyberTom
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Please help me understand this. My Toshiba can change to any mode. So say your Tivo recorded Monday Night Football on ABC which they broadcast in 720p. Then I would set my Tivo and Toshiba both to 720p. And there would not be any conversion of the signal, right?

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Joe Jensen is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:27 AM
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Joe Jensen
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Very desireable for me, I've already perordered, so it wasn't a showstopper. That said, if I see obvious issues with their scaler it would prompt me to switch to an alternative carrier.

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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<

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