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>>> Not Pleased with Gift TiVo <<<
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06-28-2004 06:05 PM

Mysteryman
Mysterious!

Registered: Jun 2002
Location:
Posts: 206

The permanent CC for the lifetime of product is a disappointing development. Does anyone know if Replay that requires this?

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06-28-2004 06:13 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

quote:
Originally posted by OLdDog
However I have one more question: Your last post on this was "Today 03:27 AM" so; DO YOU EVER SLEEP???

I'll sleep as soon as our system is perfect and our customers have no complaints.

__________________
E. Stephen Mack, Director of Service Operations at TiVo (estephen@tivo.com)
http://www.tivo.com/support/
NOTE: I prefer e-mail to Private Messages. Due to the volume of e-mail I receive, please try to go through normal channels or post your question on the forum BEFORE contacting me directly, if possible. Thanks!

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06-28-2004 06:32 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

quote:
Originally posted by island1
Taken from the same mold of "TIVO customer service" that you don't (can't) get a pro-rated fee for canceling service. I believe that too was related to the way the billing system was setup. This from a software designer!

Island1, I'm not sure if you're saying that I said this, or if someone from customer service told you this. My apologies in either case -- it's certainly not that we cannot offer pro-rated refunds. We used to do so, and made a conscious policy change almost two years ago:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...8313#post928313

Best regards,
Stephen

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06-28-2004 06:39 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

quote:
Originally posted by dobbie1
If the sub-number is stolen or forged TiVo wants a method for billing, but what if the recipient is totally unaware that the number is invalid, do you automatically bill the credit card they provided? What if they did not want to purchase the TiVo service and were only using it because it was a gift. They are going to get billed like it or not. Would not the better option be just to cancel the TiVo service once the fraud was detected? I would assume that it doesn't take that long to detect an invalid number. It is my belief that if someone is out to try and steal service in this manner, it is just a easily to give you a credit card number for validation then immediately cancel the card.

dobbie1, we certainly would contact the customer before billing, and certainly can and would shut off service. But by that point it's too late -- we've already lost money in telecom fees, and lost time in trying to research the fraud. Having the credit card be required is a great deterrent against fraud. For example, it may be quite easy for (say) an ambitious sixteen-year-old to spend a week cracking gift subscription numbers to try to steal service. But having to also steal a credit card would deter that same 16-year-old, plus add more serious criminal penalties when they are caught. Someone's identity is now on the line.

Not too long ago I was involved in a fraud case where the customer registered as "Bozo T. Clown," had the hardware sent to a public address, used a fake address for activating service, and was only caught because the Feds caught up to him on his stolen credit card. I think our accounting department's fraud team gets a lot busier if we drop the credit card requirement on the gift sub side.

But, I'll be meeting with the team this week and will let you know what we can do about this requirement.

Best,
Stephen

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06-28-2004 06:49 PM

kensteele
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 339

I am a lifetimer and I just checked into my account. What happens when my credit card expires? Will you force me to enter a new credit card? If I do not, will my lifetime service be affected? Does anyone know the answer to this....

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06-28-2004 06:51 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

Ken, you won't be affected at all when your credit card expires on a lifetime contract.

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06-28-2004 07:58 PM

Crrink
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 1274

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
...SNIP...
I have no doubt that the restaurant you ordered Chinese food from ten years ago still has your credit card information on file. It is a standard business practice to keep it, and practically impossible to erase it. If ever audit issues arise, records are simply required. And furthermore, of course, it is the job of your bank and your service providers, including TiVo, to protect this information. This is a job that we at TiVo take EXTREMELY seriously.

Without going into the details of our security practices, I can say that in the five and a half years that we have been taking orders, we have had zero security breaches of credit card information. Like any service provider, we guard your order information with the best security possible. The information is stored in a single system, and the credit card information cannot be retreived from our system via any system that is on the internet at large.

Please feel free to contact me privately if you want to discuss this issue further.

Best regards,
Stephen

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I didn't mean that I want or expect TiVo to erase any record of my credit card number, I meant that I don't want my CC# saved on the Manage My Account, or any other user accessible portion of your website. I just checked, and you guys have my Amex number linked to both my DVR's. They're both product lifetime, you don't need the numbers, and I'm more than happy to put up with the hassle of having to re-type my CC# should I choose to buy anything from TiVo in the future.

I have no doubt that your internal systems are as secure as possible. The Manage my Account portion of your website is not so secure. Not only can you be hacked, but I could be hacked, and for that reason, I'd prefer to not have my CC# on file when there is no need for it.

If it's not possible to delete the credit card numbers, can you not override your system to make it accept a dummy CC# for the time being? All 9's or something like that?

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06-28-2004 09:06 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

Best regards,
Stephen

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06-28-2004 09:35 PM

dswallow
+258PC

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Long Branch, NJ, USA
Posts: 15576

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

It's easy enough to generate a credit card number where the checksum test will pass; and simply using an expiration date of the current month will end any chance any system tries to use it within the next 31 days, at most.

__________________
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06-28-2004 09:43 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

Doug,

True, but actually we also authorize new cards for a small amount to make sure they're valid. (We do this without billing or settling, so no amount is actually charged.) I should have said so in my previous post.

--Stephen

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06-28-2004 09:48 PM

dswallow
+258PC

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Long Branch, NJ, USA
Posts: 15576

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
True, but actually we also authorize new cards for a small amount to make sure they're valid. (We do this without billing or settling, so no amount is actually charged.) I should have said so in my previous post.

Can't you work around this whole issue by allowing a specific number to mean "no credit card" and adding a few lines in the code that runs it through the authorization to allow it without testing it as well as letting it use an expiration date already passed? It's not pretty, but doesn't seem like it's any worse than leaving expired real credit card numbers in the system.

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06-28-2004 11:09 PM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

Doug,

In theory we could create a workaround such as you describe, but then we're back to the other issues I mentioned about why we require a credit card (having no fraud protection, the issues involving the way our business system works for recognizing revenue, and the way the accounting rules for gift subs have to be implemented in order to establish a business relationship with a customer).

I've passed on the feedback from this thread to team members and we are continuing to meet on the subject. I'll let everyone know what we can do.

Per Natron's issue from page 1, we will definitely work on clarifying the screens to make it more obvious that the credit card will not be charged.

Thanks again for everyone sharing their feedback on this matter.

Best regards,
Stephen

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06-29-2004 01:41 AM

Crrink
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 1274

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

Best regards,
Stephen

Well, if you are saying that it is not possible for someone to hack the MMA portion of TiVo's site (or logon after hacking me to get my user ID/pwd), and then use the information there to buy something, or somehow get the complete CC#, then yes, that would reassure me. But, is that what you're saying?

I actually think I am going to be buying a TiVo for a housewarming gift, so maybe I'll test your system and see if I can order it without providing any new information or not.

Then I have to decide whether to give the new 40 hour as a gift as is, or give my upgraded 60 hour with lifetime as the gift........any hints if USB2.0 will be enabled in the near future would really help with that decision!

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06-29-2004 03:42 AM

TiVoOpsMgr
Director, Svc. Ops

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Alviso, CA, USA
Posts: 944

quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
Well, if you are saying that it is not possible for someone to hack the MMA portion of TiVo's site (or logon after hacking me to get my user ID/pwd), and then use the information there to buy something, or somehow get the complete CC#, then yes, that would reassure me. But, is that what you're saying?

Yup, that's what I'm saying. MMA doesn't know your CC. The only thing you can do without providing the credit card again is switch from Monthly to Product Lifetime, but that won't apply to your case. (MMA tells our financial system to bill the card on file in that sole case, and makes the request without ever MMA actually knowing the full credit card number.)

quote:
I actually think I am going to be buying a TiVo for a housewarming gift, so maybe I'll test your system and see if I can order it without providing any new information or not.

Thanks for choosing TiVo! Let me know what you find or if you have any further questions.

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06-29-2004 06:42 PM

J4yDubs
Member

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Jamison, PA
Posts: 62

I'm coming in a little late, but I'd like to pile on as well. I was concidering a gift TiVo for my parents, but won't do it with the CC requirement. Please make an annoucement if this requirement changes...

John

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