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>>> Overrun recording option <<<

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oscarthecat is offline Old Post 03-14-2002 09:11 PM
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oscarthecat
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Registered: Mar 2002
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Overrun recording option

The new overrun recording option in 2.5.5 is obviously great for adding a buffer zone at the end of recording and I have it enabled on a number of Season Passes (especially BBC2 which hardly ever seems to run to schedule).

However, this is now going to lead to some programmes not being recorded at all. For example: if I have a Season Pass for programmes A and B on the same channel, every thing is great unless B happens to follow A immediately. In that case, a conflict is raised because A overflows into B. Am I making sense? Without the overrun, of course, everything is fine.

This really limits its usefulness in my view. I have to resolve conflicts which shouldn't really exist.

How much more useful it would be if the feature would detect this situation in particular and just do the right thing. My old VCR detects when two programmes are back to back and so doesn't stop/start at the break.

The problem is slightly worse if programmes A and B are on different channels (but with A + Overrun still flowing into B) because now I can't record both without resorting to a manual record or turning off overrun.

It would be really nice to have the option of recording the end of programme A at the expense of missing the start of programme B. TiVo likes dialog boxes, I'd like to see one along the lines of:

A overruns into B, do you want to:

cancel A

cancel B

record B as soon as A finishes

What does everyone else think, or is it just so rare that you have two porgrammes back to back that are worth watching?

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GarySargent is offline Old Post 03-14-2002 10:30 PM
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GarySargent
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Personally I'd rather miss the padding out if a clash than loose the start of the next programme - it might not run late, but your way you're guaranteed to nearly always miss some of the next programme.

Each person will have different views on this though of course!

We call the current overtime scheduling "Hard Padding" because of the limitations you describe. "Soft Padding" is an enhancement to what we have along the lines that you describe - somehow coping with collisions and applying some intelligence. We hope and pray that a future software update will give us this feature!

In the meantime you can trick TiVo into implementing semi-soft padding, but its a bit tricky and needs some thought. It works like this....

Say we have two programmes we want to record, "Eastenders" and "Coronation St". Suppose the schedule is as follows:

Thu 20:00 Eastenders
Fri 20:00 Eastenders
Fri 20:30 Coronation St

We want to apply +5 mins padding to Eastenders - but only if it doesn't cause a collision - like it would on Friday.

We create the following recordings, in the following sequential order in the Season Pass Manager (top one being higher priority):

1) Coronation St Season Pass
2) Eastenders Season Pass with 5 mins end padding
3) Title wishlist with keywork "Eastenders", no padding

So how does this work?...

On Thursday the highest matching recording in the Season Pass manager is number 2, so Eastenders with padding is recorded.

On Friday the highest matching recording is 1, so Coronation Street is recorded. Because this will be recorded, number 2 can not be as it clashes. Number 3 however can still match, so Eastenders without padding is recorded.

A Wishlist is needed as you can't have two Season Passes for the same programme on the same channel. These are multi-channel so you need to be careful. Using "First Run" if that works might help you only get the new episodes.

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Benet is offline Old Post 03-14-2002 11:20 PM
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Benet
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Registered: Feb 2002
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PDC - the obvious solution

Er, guys, why can't have Tivo have Programme Delivery Control? (My apologies if this is a FAQ)

PDC, as far as I know, is delivered via the teletext part of the picture and enables VCRs to delay the start and stop of a recording until the right programme starts... and stops.

Surely this must be a no-brainer?
Benet

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cwaring is offline Old Post 03-14-2002 11:30 PM
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cwaring
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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 2479

Re: PDC - the obvious solution

quote:
Originally posted by Benet
Er, guys, why can't have Tivo have Programme Delivery Control? (My apologies if this is a FAQ)

PDC, as far as I know, is delivered via the teletext part of the picture and enables VCRs to delay the start and stop of a recording until the right programme starts... and stops.

Surely this must be a no-brainer?
Benet



AIUI, Tivo cannot implement PDC becuse of the 'record live buffer' feature. I was going to try and explain it to you, but this explains it way better than I could

http://www.tivoukfaq.com/tivoukfaq/showfaq.php?faqid=58

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GarySargent is offline Old Post 03-14-2002 11:33 PM
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GarySargent
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Yes this has been discussed many times though not for over a month that I can recall so that must be some kind of record - or V2.5.5 histeria

Anyway since I've linked to this thread in the FAQ post I'll mention the problems with PDC here - off the top of my head...

1) PDC is only available on analogue terrestrial - no digital platform supports it. Since digital is being pushed as the future and the analogue service expected to stop in the future, PDC will die with it.

2) TiVo likes to know in advance when it will be recording and for how long. Its scheduler pre-plans everything. With PDC changes happen on the fly which the scheduler would not like without major changes.

3) PDC relies on examining signals on a channel before the recording. VCR's do this when in standby/timer mode, however TiVo is always recording a live TV buffer - it can't quickly switch to a channel to check its PDC signal.

4) PDC programmes can be delayed by large lengths of time - even a day I think! What if this causes a collision? How does TiVo stay tuned to the channel all that time to watch for the PDC signal?

5) With the current padding - we can accurately predict what TiVo will record for us. With PDC we can't - we are completely at the mercy of the broadcasters. If they run late we might miss our favourite show that was on next.

What we need is BDC - Broadcaster Delivery Control. As soon as a new programme in a schedule is due to start, BDC takes over and stops the BBC presenter (whatever) wittering on, and starts to play the programme. With BDC programmes can never start early or run late - everything sticks to the schedules.

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oscarthecat is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 08:36 AM
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oscarthecat
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PDC doesn't even work properly on analogue terrestrial. It requires cooperation from the broadcaster and at this time only Channel 4 and Channel 5 bother (and I believe Channel 5 turns it off at midnight!). BBC has had an "experimental" service for the last two years and ITV just doesn't use it.

The PDC standard is apparently open to a great deal of interpretation and some VCRs won't work with some channels.

Net result is that I have missed more programmes on my VCR using PDC than I ever did without it. The latest trick from BBC is that the programme starts recording and turns off after five minutes.

I see danger for TiVo on the horizon, though. Sky+ is in the wild. It has two tuners and so can record one channel while watching another. Of course it's less sophisticated than TiVo but that's only a software issue and I wouldn't be surprised to see Season Pass (tm), Wish Lists (tm) and all the other good TiVo stuff appear in the future.

Sky own the communication channel and so have great potential for "PDC-like" functionality and other smart tricks that could be broadcast to their box. TiVo have an up hill struggle to emulate this because they require cooperation from all the broadcasters (including Sky).

With Sky's huge marketing muscle and already established market presence I think TiVo's got to pack in the features, stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap. Sadly, it may already be too late.

I'm not a Sky advocate, I don't even have it and have no plans to get it. But I would suggest that TiVo have clearly fouled up their marketing when the only way I even knew TiVo existed was from a link on Sky's website (last Sunday).

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ozsat is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 08:48 AM
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ozsat
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A couple of ITV companies use PDC correctly, but most do not.

In most ITV areas, using PDC would cause the start/stop time to match the pre-published times and not the actual times.

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oscarthecat is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 08:49 AM
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oscarthecat
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quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent

1) Coronation St Season Pass
2) Eastenders Season Pass with 5 mins end padding
3) Title wishlist with keywork "Eastenders", no padding



Great example, Gary. This looks interesting, sadly I can't try it right now as my TiVo is currently a refund (another thread). Looking to buy another today.

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Ian_m is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 08:51 AM
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Ian_m
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With a decent signal strength my "hardly ever used now" Panasonic VCR always works as expected with PDC (except C5 and ITV broadcasts from Yorkshire region!).

With poor signal (and very poor picture) funnies do happen, failing to start, starting many minutes late and even stopping mid program. I assume as the teletext signal is poor the VCR is missing the PDC codes.

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cwaring is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 09:40 AM
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cwaring
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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 2479

quote:
Originally posted by oscarthecat
PDC doesn't even work properly on analogue terrestrial. It requires cooperation from the broadcaster and at this time only Channel 4 and Channel 5 bother (and I believe Channel 5 turns it off at midnight!). BBC has had an "experimental" service for the last two years and ITV just doesn't use it.

The PDC standard is apparently open to a great deal of interpretation and some VCRs won't work with some channels.

Net result is that I have missed more programmes on my VCR using PDC than I ever did without it. The latest trick from BBC is that the programme starts recording and turns off after five minutes. (last Sunday).



I have to add here that it must depend on which TV region you are in as, here in Yorkshire, I have hardly had any problems with PDC on any analogue channel. Very strange

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mrtickle is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 12:49 PM
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mrtickle
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It can be "on" in the sense that it light up the pdc indicator on a vcr, but set to a mode which just uses the times you set. Most ITV regions do this. Nine years of stonewalling and ITV still aren't broadcasting PDC (except for the regions that went it alone).

See the PDC FAQ: http://625.uk.com/pdc/index.htm

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pwarnes is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 05:45 PM
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pwarnes
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Cool Gary - I agree with the original suggestion

Before V2.5.5 I was getting _really_ hacked off with missing the last few minutes of pretty much everything. I'd much rather miss the first few minutes, and get the end of everything.
I saw this being discussed before our upgrade arrived, so didn't get any surprises. I think it's just being petty to "refuse" to record the second program if you have such a clash. Automatically removing the padding, or starting the next recording late would be much more civil!
I even got it with 2 recordings on the same channel a couple of days ago.

Is there somewhere we can log our wishes, or check that they have been logged by someone else?

Theres a thread that seems to be US based -- would they understand

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pete

TiVo owner since Dec 2001
Panasonic Freeview box Jan 2003
Very happy with 2.55, just need -ve padding
(and a disk upgrade)

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GarySargent is offline Old Post 03-15-2002 06:31 PM
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GarySargent
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Re: Gary - I agree with the original suggestion

quote:
Originally posted by pwarnes
Is there somewhere we can log our wishes, or check that they have been logged by someone else?



Yes check out my site which TiVo monitor:

http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk

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pwarnes is offline Old Post 03-18-2002 07:49 PM
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pwarnes
TiVo Convert

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Thanks Gary

I'm waiting with baited breath to view your suggestions site, but it seems to have been down for maintainance since you posted.

I hope you haven't done this just to keep me out

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hazydaze is offline Old Post 03-18-2002 08:08 PM
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hazydaze
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Registered: Nov 2001
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Isn't this just the nicest forum on the web.

People here are so helpful with all questions, and without any snobbery to new users.

Gary--I don;t know how you do it. When i was a new Tivo user i asked quite a lot of questions here and they always got answered. I still drop in most days and see that you are still patiently helping with peoples queries.

Did you just sit and think out the solution to 'semi-soft' padding.
It's a very nice idea, though i don't really use it as i don't have too many conflicts, and the view history makes it easy to chop off padding on conflicting recordings.

altogether 2.5.5 is sooo much better. I can now recoimmend Tivo to all users with complete confidence.

Ps. Automan--read in one of your posts that Sky+ dfeletes recordings if you change package to one that doesn't include tyhe recorded programs--that is sooo out of order!!

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GarySargent is offline Old Post 03-18-2002 09:52 PM
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GarySargent
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Thanks Hazydaze

My suggestions site is now back up - I've also enabled the chat feature if anyone feels like chatting!

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letitbleed is offline Old Post 03-18-2002 09:59 PM
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letitbleed
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Just wondering why with padding you can add 1,2,5 mins but next one is 15 mins,surely it would be better to add 6,7,8,9,10 mins,thus hopefully avoiding too many extra conflicts as we know BBC (and ITV more &more ) quite often run 5-10 mins late

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mrtickle is offline Old Post 03-19-2002 08:10 AM
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mrtickle
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I agree, I wanted 3, 4 and 10 added most of all

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pwarnes is offline Old Post 03-22-2002 03:19 PM
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pwarnes
TiVo Convert

Registered: Jan 2002
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Gary,

I have finally got into the tivosuggestions site.
It seems that there was some cached version of the "I'm down for maintainance" page that I kept getting right up until today.
I went through the nauseous registration process (because I couldn't get into my very old account) and now I've voted for the negative padding.

Also voted on some other issues while I was there.

Thanks for the help.

-- pete

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pete

TiVo owner since Dec 2001
Panasonic Freeview box Jan 2003
Very happy with 2.55, just need -ve padding
(and a disk upgrade)

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maubp is offline Old Post 10-19-2002 10:32 PM
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maubp
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I've now had a Tivo up and running for about 24 hours and generally I'm impressed.

However, I have already fallen over this problem - the particular example was a double bill on BBC2. If I add any padding to the front or back, then only one episode is recorded. If I have no padding, then BBC2 will run late and I will miss the end of the second episode.

Gary's wish list idea sounds like a great idea. Espically if BBC2 starts doing double bills of the Simpsons again!

I have been thinking about this (I'm a programmer) and realised that solving this "properly" - even just for same channel "overlaps" would not be easy.

Still, it would be nice!

Peter

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