Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Breinigsville, PA
Posts: 31

Ok, I'm sure some of you have already been through this so wanted to see what your opinions are on my comparison of Digital Cable and DirecTV in my area. (I need a two room setup - Hitachi 57TWX20B in living room and crappy old TV in bedroom) I've been going back and forth and here's where I'm at right now...

(After typing this I noticed I used "HD" alot, some are for "Hard Drive" and some are for "High Definition", it should be apparent which are which.)

Digital Cable w/ HD
My local cable company (and the only one that services where I live - 18031) is Service Electric and they carry HDTV on CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, SHowtime, & HBO. They are also getting new HDTV channels in the Summer, one of which I'm told "should" be ESPN HD.

Digital Cable w/ HD
Monthly Cost = $40.00
HD Box per month = $11.95
Total Monthly = $51.95
Equipment Cost = $0.00

Digital Cable w/ 1 Tivo w/ HD
Monthly Cable Cost = $40.00
HD Box per month = $11.95
Monthly Tivo Cost = $12.95
Total Monthly = $64.90
Equipment Cost = $350.00 (40 hour Tivo w/ self upgraded HD)

DirectTV w/o HD
The main benefit of DirecTV to me is the sorts packages not available anywhere else. I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. I called a couple of different salespeople at DirecTV and all told me that I cannot get Sunday Ticket without subscribing to DirecTV. I was hoping I could just install a dish and just pay for and receive ST without a subscription (which would solve all my problems), but no such luck. Also wthout HD, I'm not using my new TV to its full capability.

DirectTV w/ 1 Tivo w/o HD
Monthly DirecTV Cost = $38.00
Additional DirecTV receiver per month = $4.99
Monthly Tivo Cost w/ DirecTV = $4.95
Total Monthly = $47.94
Equipment Cost = $400.00 (HDVR2 w/ HD upgrade, standard receiver, Dish & Install)

DirectTV w/ HD
Again. the main benefit of DirecTV to me is the sorts packages not available anywhere else. I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. In this package, I would purchase a HD Receiver and antenna and hope to get as many OTA HD feeds as possible. In my area I think I can only receive CBS and ABC right now. (I haven't tested this yet though and need to as it may be a key factor)

DirectTV w/ 1 Tivo w/ HD
Monthly DirecTV Cost = $38.00
Additional DirecTV receiver per month = $4.99
Monthly Tivo Cost w/ DirecTV = $4.95
Total Monthly = $47.94
Equipment Cost = $1060.00 (HDVR2 w/ HD upgrade, HD Receiver, standard receiver, MulitDish & Install)

Right now, my plan is to get the HD cable for a while and see how much I like it. While I have it, I may buy a DirecTV / OTA STB and antenna and experiment with how well I recieve HD channels OTA. That will give me an idea of what I can get if I switch to DirecTV.

The monthly fees for each are not too far off, its the equipment costs and channel / package availability that are the real difference.

I really want NFL Sunday Ticket as I mentioned above but that won't be a factor for several months until Football starts back up. If by then I decide that I NEED Sunday Ticket more that the additional HD channels through cable, I'll make the switch.

The fact that its most likely that I'll make that switch will probably keep me from buying a Cable Tivo since I will need a HDVR2 with DirecTV. Will a HDVR2 work at all with cable? I guess I can check that ot myself.

Well thats my rant on the decision I've been trying to make, what do you think?

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Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 98

As someone who has gone from Digital Cable (2 room setup) to 2 HDVR2s, I can say that there isn't a comparison...... DTV rocks and Digital Cable Sux!!

As I was calling to unsubcribe, the Time Warner rep on the phone informed me of their "new" Tivo box that had 2 tuners and a hard drive... I've since read about that Scientific Atlanta Box and it is inferior to all Satellite-based PVRs.

However, I do know that My WAF has improved exponentially since we became DTV converts... We had Dish Network before we moved (501 & 4900) and Since Dish Didn't carry my locals here, I decided to try Digital Cable until the HDVR2 came out... great timing!! My 3 month "half price" special with TWC ran out just as the HDVR2 was released. For this reason, I will recommend that you DO try the Digital Cable with HighDef as that will give you a true comparison as well as "stalling" until the newly announced HighDef DTivo is released "later this year"

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 949

My parents have HighDef, and although it is amazing! I would have to choose DTiVo (DirecTV option), over my local digital cable any day.

HighDef DirecTiVo might be the golden ticket when it comes out.

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Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
Posts: 27

DirecTivo is great and is significantly better than a standalone TiVo, due to two tuners. VOD from your cable company is not even in the same league as TiVo. BUT, DirecTV is going to fall over on the weight of HD programming. DirecTV does not have the bandwidth, with their current compression schemes, to compete with cable on the number of HD stations they can/will carry. So, in the foreseeable future, from an HD perspective cable looks like the clear winner.

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Evergreen Park (South Side burb of Chitown), IL
Posts: 587

Lehigh - why don't you have a tivo yet???? Whats wrong?

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 127

cjett -

Cable may look like a clear winner to you, but to me it can't compete. Heck they can't even get analog or current 'digital' quality high enough to compete with DTV. As for bandwidth, most cable providers don't have enough to carry any range of HD programming either - especially with the push to sign up broadband users. I'm waiting to see what shakes out.

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Breinigsville, PA
Posts: 31

quote:

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Originally posted by Directv&TivoGuy
Lehigh - why don't you have a tivo yet???? Whats wrong?

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 8

quote:

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Originally posted by cjett
BUT, DirecTV is going to fall over on the weight of HD programming. DirecTV does not have the bandwidth, with their current compression schemes, to compete with cable on the number of HD stations they can/will carry. So, in the foreseeable future, from an HD perspective cable looks like the clear winner.

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Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
Posts: 27

FzyLgic - Obviously, it depends on your local cable company, and their offerings. Digital cable, on the whole, is a wider pipe to pump digital services than is DBS - at least in their current compression schemes. DishNetwork is a little better off with their 8VSB module (basically, they use a different compression scheme for HD than they use for their SD material). My local cable is Comcast - We now have 9 offerings and they have committed to ESPNHD and HDNet's upcoming multi-channel offerings. Currently, I have both Comcast and DirecTV. I get most of my HD material from Comcast, and SD from DirecTV - I plan to hold out with both until there is a clear winner - but for HD, cable (at least Comcast) is winning hands down.

Jcharm - HD has not yet been moved to a separate bird. Showtime is on the 110 sat., HBOHD is on the 101 sat, HDNet and HD PPV are both on the 119 sat. There have been rumors for quite awhile that all of the HD programming will move to the 110 sat, which is probably what your reffering to. However, this has not yet happened, and even so, DirecTV leases space on the 110 sat and only has a handful of slots on this bird. At best they could offer 3 more HD channels there - these would not be additional channels, but rather a movement of some sort, as this bird is already filled with Asian programming, so they'd have to go somewhere, and the other birds are nearly filled as well.

As HD content rolls out in force, DBS is going to have a difficult time keeping up. That is, unless something drastic changes to the compression schemes, which will (most likely) require new receivers. The lack of HD locals is going to REALLY hurt them - and the precedent has already been set regarding national feeds of the major networks. I don't see a win here for them. No way DirecTV will replace every receiver out there to meet a new compression scheme. DirecTV is trying to unload themselves to anyine that will have them - and I doubt very seriously that we will see an investment in a new HD dedicated sat anytime soon.
cjett

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 8

Well that kind of sucks. With the HDTivo box thats coming I though we'd have the definitive hardware solution. Maybe cable will win this war after all. How much bandwidth can you squeeze out of coaxial? Most companies are already doing video and interent and some are even doing voice as well, how much room is left for HD?

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Posts: 982

DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming. Currently DTV uses MPEG2 compression for SD and HD encoding. MPEG4 compresses more efficiently and delivers more channels over the same bandwidth. One HD channel using the current MPEG2 scheme takes the bandwidth of 10 SD channels.

DTV is very likely to provide HD-ESPN and HD Discovery by April, 2003. DTV has already announced up to 2 HD NFL games per week in 2003 and many additional free HD broadcasts for sports and special events on the new HD "Pay per View" channel 198. DTV is also working with their current exclusive HDNET channel 199 partner to include Mark Cubin's additional future HD channels.

DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

Also, DTV is scheduled to launch a second 119 degree satellite. The new satellite will employ "spot beam technology. The new spot beam satellite will mostly be used for local channels in rural communities. DTV also plans on load balancing the HD programming among the 101, 110 and 2 119 degree satellites. DTV subscribers who want local channels in the new markets and all HD customers will want the triple LNB multi-satellite antenna dish system.

For our customers we set up local OTA HD antennas to receive local HD broadcasts. With all of the owned and operated and affiliate local broadcasters offering digital broadcasts customers are best served with local antennas to add more HD content. All DTV HD receivers also decode local ATSC signals and the latest HD receivers have very sensitive and selective receivers that do a great job receiving local OTA broadcasts in fringe areas.

In spite of a pending sale or divestiture DIRECTV and HNS are continually developing new technological advances. GM and Hughes understands that advancing the technology to develop cost savings and competitive advantages make the company more valuable to potential suitors.

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Long lsland, NY
Posts: 893

quote:

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Originally posted by FzyLgic
cjett -

Cable may look like a clear winner to you, but to me it can't compete. Heck they can't even get analog or current 'digital' quality high enough to compete with DTV. As for bandwidth, most cable providers don't have enough to carry any range of HD programming either - especially with the push to sign up broadband users. I'm waiting to see what shakes out.

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 59

quote:

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Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming.

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 431

quote:

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Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Elmira, NY USA
Posts: 1046

I find it difficult to believe that your equipment cost for cable would be $0.00. Are you talking initial cost vs. monthly rental? Do you have it in writing that your cable co. won't charge you for equipment? Hell, TW used to charge me 25 cents a month for the remote to the STB.

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Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
Posts: 27

quote:

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Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming. Currently DTV uses MPEG2 compression for SD and HD encoding. MPEG4 compresses more efficiently and delivers more channels over the same bandwidth. One HD channel using the current MPEG2 scheme takes the bandwidth of 10 SD channels.

DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Breinigsville, PA
Posts: 31

quote:

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Originally posted by bidger
I find it difficult to believe that your equipment cost for cable would be $0.00. Are you talking initial cost vs. monthly rental? Do you have it in writing that your cable co. won't charge you for equipment? Hell, TW used to charge me 25 cents a month for the remote to the STB.

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Posts: 982

I posted to be sure no one would just believe that cable carries have or will have more HD content than DTV offers. I am sorry to read so much distrust in my post. I stated what I learned from an technology meeting with DIRECTV. As I stated DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4, they are looking at MPEG4 to have the ability to offer more HD channels. It is true that currently it is more expensive to build MPEG4 decoders, however as the technology matures costs will drop.

No current SD DTV receivers or combo units will be obsolete. The MPEG4 compression would only be used for HD broadcasts. All SD DTV and SD DTV-TiVo recorders will not be effected whatsoever.

Almost no DTV development money is being spent on looking into MPEG4. MPEG4 encoders, decoders and standards have already been established.

We put OTA antennas in almost every HD job. I like the ChannelMaster #3010, which is designed to receive the UHF band and we have a specially designed clamp that mounts onto the existing mast and adds another mast for the small ChannelMaster #3010. The 3010 sits above the multi-satellite dish. We add the optional UHF internal amplifier and diplex the OTA cable on the DTV coax.

DTV has done a good job of cost cutting in the past year. Very little money is going into the MPEG4 consideration. The new 119 degree spot beam satellite has a very large capacity and will enable DTV to deliver many more local channels across America as well as provide the opportunity to load balance HD channels among the 101, 110 and 119 degree satellites.

Regarding the statement that MPEG4 is an "encoding", not an "encryption", I do agree. MPEG onto itself is encoded. However, I think of MPEG as an encoded and encrypted signal as it is also encrypted. I will use the term more properly in the future.

Anyone interest in learning more about MPEG4 can go to the official site http://www.m4if.org .

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Last edited by DTV TiVo Dealer on 02-19-2003 at 11:57 PM

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Elmira, NY USA
Posts: 1046

Thanks for clearing the equipment cost up for me Lehigh. HD isn't a concern for me right now because nothing is offered for me locally. I'm by no means an expert on that so I'll leave that to those who know.

For myself, I like the fact that my equipment costs w/ DirecTV are taken care of upfront and that programming is all I'm paying for in my monthly bill. That may not be true for you, especially if you're just now buying your HD equipment & don't want to incur any more additional upfront costs. Whatever you decide, best of luck!

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 126

quote:

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Originally posted by Lehigh
I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. I called a couple of different salespeople at DirecTV and all told me that I cannot get Sunday Ticket without subscribing to DirecTV. I was hoping I could just install a dish and just pay for and receive ST without a subscription (which would solve all my problems), but no such luck.

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