Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Jamestown, RI
Posts: 4

The end of hacking in sight?

The current information I'm seeing suggests that the DirecTivo boxes running 2.5 are (as of yet) unhackable. It appears as though the new kernel keeps a cached copy of all files on the root partition and performs a checksum on power up. If any actual files in root don't checksum out correctly they are replaced (prior to boot) with the copies (stored in compressed form) in the kernel image.

This appears to be end of hacking on DirecTivo boxes.

Even if someone finds a way to hack the kernel image, I would imagine that Tivo would next begin doing checks on the "call home". If this occurs, then the hacking community would need to develop a "stealth" hack that can hide itself (replace all modified files) during a call home.

As for the SA boxes, Tivo has a decision to make. Should they implement the same anti-hacking measures for SA as they are currently doing for DirecTivo? The big risk I see there is that many people may op to UNPLUG their SA and run without service.

My "crystal ball" says that Tivo will allow hacking to continue on the SA boxes. They are not willing to lose revenue on boxes unplugged due to hacker paranoia.

I am curious as what the "real" hacking guys think about all of this.

------------------
PC Boards Repaired Here!
-- (Ignore the Name) --

POST #1 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Jamestown, RI
Posts: 4

In doing further musing on this subject, the following question comes to mind:

What is left unknown regarding the Tivo's functionality? Are we any closer to the day when an open source version of the Tivo software (myworld, etc) or something functionally equivalent could be produced?

------------------
PC Boards Repaired Here!
-- (Ignore the Name) --

POST #2 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 5

Does this mean I need to add a new hard drive before I get the upgrade to 2.5?

------------------
What we do in life, echoes in eternity

POST #3 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 197

I doubt that TiVo would mess up the ability to expand your TiVo. Doing so would certainly adversly effect sales. Before we jump to any conclusions here let's remember that 2.5 is in beta and perhaps they are preventing changes while those in the beta program test what TiVo intends on supporting rather than letting those doing the testing change things. Then they have to figure out if they have a real problem based on the "normal" use of a TiVo or on some other use.

I do think that they are trying to get a handle on some of the other hacks going on. Perhaps these are going to be more difficult to achieve in order to keep the program content owners (ie the networks and MPAA) happy.

That's my 2 cents.... your mileage may vary.

------------------
I am <FONT COLOR="red">T</FONT c><FONT COLOR="green">i</FONT c><FONT COLOR="yellow">V</FONT c><FONT COLOR="purple">o</FONT c> of Borg you will be &lt;jump back&gt; I am <FONT COLOR="red">T</FONT c><FONT COLOR="green">i</FONT c><FONT COLOR="yellow">V</FONT c><FONT COLOR="purple">o</FONT c> of Borg you will be recorded with a Seasons Pass and abosorbed into my collective.

POST #4 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1290

With TiVolutionary's comment about military grade encryption, people fooling with the new PROM image downloaded with 2.0 software (but not installed), I assume the non-plussed reaction to ExtractStream, and people selling online and on eBay modified boxes 'that need no service' I could see why TiVo wants to lock the box up.

BlessTiVo and MadTiVo are run with the drives outside the box so they could leave those abilities around.

POST #5 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 30

quote:

---

Originally posted by ADent:
BlessTiVo and MadTiVo are run with the drives outside the box so they could leave those abilities around.

---

POST #6 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2000
Location:
Posts: 1031

chattr +i guys...


------------------
<FONT size="1">All comments made in this post are my opinion and my opinion alone. Deal with it.
Otto, Zen TiVo Master - Moderator - AVS Tivo Forums - Tivo Underground, Tivo Coffee House
"The way of the portable computer user is as a stony path strewn with plugs and sockets, all the wrong size..." -- Terry Pratchett</FONT s>

POST #7 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Posts: 0

But chattr +i does not work in 2.5 on the DTivo. If it finds any files that do not match it's signature file, it deletes them or deletes and replaces them and then reboots, If chattr +i is set, when it tries to delete them it will fail, reboot and then try to delete them again, over and over. Boot loop....

This has changed from 2.0.1 on the DTivo where it tries to delete and replace and then keeps going without the reboot.

POST #8 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 20

quote:

---

Originally posted by oosik77:
I doubt that TiVo would mess up the ability to expand your TiVo. Doing so would certainly adversly effect sales.

---

POST #9 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Concord New Hampshire
Posts: 314

quote:

---

Originally posted by CoosCoos:
How would it "adversly effect sales"? The only people expanding their TiVo are a very small minority of TiVo's customers. And how many of the people in this minority purchased a TiVo simply because it was expandable? A small number, I'm sure.

A minority of a minority does not equate to 'adversly effected sales'.

---

POST #10 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2000
Location:
Posts: 1031

It's also a minority with the ability to hurt Tivo very badly by changing to box as to not require service, not require calling in, not require anything.

Locking the box is a bad idea, because it only means that people will need to fight them in order to continue to hack their boxes. And then you end up in the situation DTV is in with DTV hackers. DTV hacking is now basically undetectable unless you do something stupid, and DTV can no longer fight the signal theft on a technological level. By killing almost all simple H card hacks, they drove the sales of emulation boards thru the roof, and it's now at the point where DTV cannot even fight them wholesale, they have to sue them when they find them. It's a sad situation DTV got themselves into, and Tivo might be starting down the same road if they don't watch it.

When it comes to these things, the trick is that any decision made to have an effect in the short term is a bad one. DTV thought it was a good idea, in the short term, to stop H card hacking. In the long term, it's made DTV hacking basically impossible to stop, ever, short of scrapping the whole mess and starting from scratch, which is impossible, of course.

------------------
<FONT size="1">All comments made in this post are my opinion and my opinion alone. Deal with it.
Otto, Zen TiVo Master - Moderator - AVS Tivo Forums - Tivo Underground, Tivo Coffee House
"The way of the portable computer user is as a stony path strewn with plugs and sockets, all the wrong size..." -- Terry Pratchett</FONT s>

[This message has been edited by Otto (edited 08-03-2001).]

POST #11 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Jamestown, RI
Posts: 4

quote:

---

Originally posted by Otto:
Locking the box is a bad idea, because it only means that people will need to fight them in order to continue to hack their boxes.

---

POST #12 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 7870

Keep in mind that TiVo makes NO money on the boxes. If anything, they lose. Where TiVo has to recoup their costs is in the service fees. If TiVo starts locking down boxes to prevent them from being upgraded, the chances of the very dedicated TiVo hacking community jumping ship are very high.

I agree with oosik77. It is most likely that TiVo just wants to make sure that people don't muck around with the software while it is in beta, therefore making it more difficult to debug.

POST #13 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 444

quote:

---

Originally posted by Otto:
It's also a minority with the ability to hurt Tivo very badly by changing to box as to not require service, not require calling in, not require anything.

Locking the box is a bad idea, because it only means that people will need to fight them in order to continue to hack their boxes. And then you end up in the situation DTV is in with DTV hackers. DTV hacking is now basically undetectable unless you do something stupid, and DTV can no longer fight the signal theft on a technological level. By killing almost all simple H card hacks, they drove the sales of emulation boards thru the roof, and it's now at the point where DTV cannot even fight them wholesale, they have to sue them when they find them. It's a sad situation DTV got themselves into, and Tivo might be starting down the same road if they don't watch it.

When it comes to these things, the trick is that any decision made to have an effect in the short term is a bad one. DTV thought it was a good idea, in the short term, to stop H card hacking. In the long term, it's made DTV hacking basically impossible to stop, ever, short of scrapping the whole mess and starting from scratch, which is impossible, of course.

---

POST #14 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2000
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 65

quote:

---

Originally posted by Otto:
In the long term, it's made DTV hacking basically impossible to stop, ever, short of scrapping the whole mess and starting from scratch, which is impossible, of course.

---

Except that they can -- that's the whole point of the swappable access card. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't the custom encryption ASIC still not broken, thus requiring the emulators to have to "hijack" an H card's ASIC?

So what's to stop them from doing a card swap that uses ONLY a custom ASIC, and not the current off-the-shelf processor connected to an ASIC?

Then the hackers would be back to trying to crack the ASIC by microscopically reading the traces, which just ain't fun or legal -- even in Canada. (Isn't that what stopped the PASS card?)

Alex

POST #15 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2000
Location:
Posts: 8

Isn't the logical response to any attempt to prevent expanding the Tivo simply (well it may not be simple to do it well) replace the service?

If Tivo pushes in this direction and the service is replaced what are the chances that the only people who use this will be the hackers?

Thus I don't think Tivo will attempt to prevent expansion of SA tivos if they think it through.

------------------
NextGuard = Paul from Atlanta

POST #16 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 3

"Think it thru"??? Anyone that works for a company of more than 50 employees knows that logical thinking (even in engineering dominate companies) is not often applied.

Why is Dilbert is so popular -- because it too closely reflects corporate behavior. Please do not expect TiVo to avoid cutting off it's nose to spite it's face just because if they "think it thru" they would realize it is not a good idea.

Why does TiVo require a 800 call (that they pay for) for Guided Setup when there is a perfectly good local access number that could be used? Why can I not do my own setup? This forces unsubbed users to incur a cost to TiVo. (I am sure the logic at TiVo is that no one would not subscribe. Of course, the same logic would have put the subscription price in the purchase price.) So now that they realize this, they are no longer setting the clock on unsubbed units (so I hear) in an attempt to recoup??? Fix a bad situation by making it harder on people.

Personally, I am all for TiVo getting a fair share for the value that they have created. It is a two-way street. Balance will be found - one way or another.


[This message has been edited by supervhs (edited 08-03-2001).]

POST #17 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oh2Smooth:

I'm just not following how you say that they shouldn't have done something... They should have sat on their hands?

---

POST #18 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: tampa, FL USA
Posts: 0

How about this - a hack that allows the box to continue updating the guide data and the clock but which cancels out any system upgrade? It would be both possible and legal, if you pay for service. Nothing in my contract w/ tivo forces me to allow them to upgrade the OS. I own this copy of the OS and can hack it all I want legally. I pay for guide data, but cannot be forced to allow OS upgrades. If you disagree, show me where in the law or our contract w/tivo thet I am required to allow OS upgrades...

POST #19 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

I'm not sure I'd take Tivo's actions on the DirectTV/Tivo combo units as the future direction for Tivo as a whole. I'd guess that their contract / agreement with Hughes requires them to protect these boxes from being hacked as much as possible, since DirectTV already has battles with hackers who are trying to steal service from them. If the DirectTV side of a combo box were hacked in such a way to get around the need for a subscription, you can bet that many thousands of people would buy Tivos just to get free satellite tv service.

So, while Tivo may make it really difficult to hack a combo box, I'm not sure they intend to do the same tricks on the standalone boxes.

------------------
-Keith

POST #20 | Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged