Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

TiVo Hack FAQ Topic: What is the preferred TiVo Hack Development Software

I am starting this topic with the intention of identifying a preferred TiVo Hacking software environment. The goal is to identify Linux flavors and versions, and cross compillers that are suitable for producing TiVo binaries. Another useful topic would be decompilers. This software should support advanced hacking in addition to the tasks of backup and blessing.

I have seen a variety of Linux releases mentioned in the archives. The goal here is to identify a flavor and version that is most suitable and supports the hardware identified under the separate discussion topic: "TiVo Hack FAQ Topic: What is the preferred TiVo Hack Development Hardware". http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum6/HTML/003168.html

(This above mentioned topic has been closed in favor of keeping this discussion in one thread.)

The answer to this may be as simple as Red Hat Linux version 6.2. We'll see.


[This message has been edited by voxelman (edited 02-05-2001).]

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NetBSD from 1.2 distro. v 1.5 kernel.
Heck there are no numbers at this point.

I don't understand the question at this point.
You want me to list everything on my box?
TCL version, gcc version, binutils, ld, etc?

IDA v4.x for decompiler.



[This message has been edited by barebottoms (edited 02-03-2001).]

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

quote:

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Originally posted by barebottoms:
NetBSD from 1.2 distro. v 1.5 kernel.
Heck there are no numbers at this point.

I don't understand the question at this point.
You want me to list everything on my box?
TCL version, gcc version, binutils, ld, etc?

IDA v4.x for decompiler.

---

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 5

It seems to me that anyone with enough skill to hack their TiVo in a special development environment is either already using tools they are comfortable with, or they know what kinds of tools they'll need. Hacking is such an artform, how can you possibly lay out guidelines defining a "best" development platform? I guess I don't understand who this HOWTO is supposed to target specifically.

FP



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http://tivo.pineaus.com

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
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quote:

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Originally posted by Scutter:
It seems to me that anyone with enough skill to hack their TiVo in a special development environment is either already using tools they are comfortable with, or they know what kinds of tools they'll need.

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 5

quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman:

OBTW, your own "TiVo updating over dedicated Internet HOWTO" is very good. It allowed me to get past echo * in less then an hour yesterday. Thank you for taking the time to create and maintain such a useful work. I'm working on file transfer now.

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*whew* I'm glad it helped you. Almost everyone else who used it suffered severe radiation burns and caused numerous city-wide blackouts.

FP


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http://tivo.pineaus.com

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
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So Scutter, what is the makeup of the Linux system that you use to link your TiVo to the internet?

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Noblesville, IN
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quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman:
So Scutter, what is the makeup of the Linux system that you use to link your TiVo to the internet?

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
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What do you use for your development environment?

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Noblesville, IN
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quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman:
What do you use for your development environment?

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Well, I currently have 7 PC's, three Mac's, and a VAX (not counting the TiVo). Which one do you wanna know about?

I do development on whichever machine I happen to sit down at. They range from 486's with 16MB up to a P4/1.6GHz with 512MB, running a variety of operating systems, including Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, MacOS, etc. I don't really have a favorite. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

FP


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http://tivo.pineaus.com

[This message has been edited by Scutter (edited 02-07-2001).]

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

quote:

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Originally posted by Scutter:
Well, I currently have 7 PC's, three Mac's, and a VAX (not counting the TiVo). Which one do you wanna know about?

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Cooool! It sounds like your as into collecting hardware as I am. My current stable includes 3 Silicon Graphics Workstations (R5K O2, R10K 02, Dual CPU Octane), 1 Power Macintosh G3, and 8 PCs of various flavors (HP XE2 Omnibook, 2 Micron Millennia P3-500s, Micron Millenia VX P2-400, 2 Gateway 2000 P-90, Gateway 2000 P-120, Gateway 2000 P-75).

All of the PCs but the HP were picked up at an business office closing this past Friday. Most are working and include Windows 98SE. Also included were 4 17" monitors. Now I need to choose which of the PCs to keep and which to sell off.

I do development on whichever machine I happen to sit down at. They range from 486's with 16MB up to a P4/1.6GHz with 512MB, running a variety of operating systems, including Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, MacOS, etc. I don't really have a favorite. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

FP


Ok, but if you wanted to choose one to suggest to a relative newbie which one would it be?

So given my above menagerie:

1) Which one of the PCs do you think would serve as a good entry level machine for TiVo hacking? (I'm leaning towards one of the P3-500s)

2) Which Linux distro would it be good to use? (I'm leaning towards Red Hat 7.0 but I've gotten some indications that 6.2 is more stable.)

Prior to making the purchase I spent some time determining the Linux compatability of the various platforms. The Micron Millennia has a motherboard based on the Intel 440BX core. The Linux Hardware Database (http://lhd.datapower.com/) has reports of a couple of people being able to get Linux up on these boards successfully. Dylan's Boot Disk boots on all of them.

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A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

[This message has been edited by voxelman (edited 02-12-2001).]

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 3582

quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman in the closed thread:
You would think. But because a majority of Linux boxes are run on Wintel platforms much of the stuff that is going on here seems to be using Wintel hardware. I've seen some mention of LinuxPPC by HTH but I am still very much in the dark regarding all of this.

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Yes, I used LinuxPPC 2000 Q1. I've used it for making compressed backups and more recently for modifying boot blocks using ghex. For awhile I was pulling boot blocks from the drive, copying them to an HFS volume, and editing them with HexEdit before I found ghex. (I have yet to encounter a unit that accepted the factory password, so editing has been necessary to enable shell access and set the password.) All my blessings were using MacTiVo Blesser (its icon is my design donated freely ), and all my CD-R backups were burned using Toast (I have 1.2.1 and 1.3.0 14hr backups and 1.3.0 30hr backups, the latter actually being smaller).

However, for things like running Maxtor utilities and unlocking Quantum drives, a PC is still necessary. The needed apps for these steps haven't been ported to the Macintosh. I had to use a PC at work during long winter hours to run the utilities. (Thankfully the first 30hr unit I got my hands on--my mother's--did not have a locked drive.)

All my efforts have involved using software I either already possessed or could be freely and legally acquired. (Toast came with my CD-RW drive.)

Now I have a new PC invading my home. I'm assembling a system myself. Unfortunately my first attempt resulted in an overheated CPU (AMD Thunderbird 1.1 GHz). "Smoked" is the technical term for its state, and I won't get a replacement until Wednesday. Without the sound card I have yet to purchase, that system cost me $800.

I'm about ready to add a 60 GB to my second TiVo and restore my original 14hr drives to virgin 1.2.1 and 1.3.0 condition. I've been holding off as I've been waiting for the 2.0 release and Tiger releasing his new hack to utilize all of two drives so I could have two units with a 60-60 and a 45-45, but I guess I can settle for two 45-60 units. That, and I've wanted to see if I could install a DVD-ROM into the second unit instead and port LiViD to the TiVo.

Unfortunately, between work and watching TiVo, I don't have much time left to hack anymore. Maybe when I switch to working four 10hr shifts instead of the five 8hr shifts I work now.

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 5

quote:

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Originally posted by HTH:
Unfortunately my first attempt resulted in an overheated CPU (AMD Thunderbird 1.1 GHz). "Smoked" is the technical term for its state

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I thought the technical term was "BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"?

FP


[This message has been edited by Scutter (edited 02-13-2001).]

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

quote:

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Originally posted by HTH:
Yes, I used LinuxPPC 2000 Q1. I've used it for making compressed backups and more recently for modifying boot blocks using ghex. For awhile I was pulling boot blocks from the drive, copying them to an HFS volume, and editing them with HexEdit before I found ghex. (I have yet to encounter a unit that accepted the factory password, so editing has been necessary to enable shell access and set the password.) All my blessings were using MacTiVo Blesser (its icon is my design donated freely ), and all my CD-R backups were burned using Toast (I have 1.2.1 and 1.3.0 14hr backups and 1.3.0 30hr backups, the latter actually being smaller).

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I have been trying to get the LinuxPPC 2000 Q4 CD to boot on my beige G3, no joy. I started by downloading the image and burning it to CD-R with Toast. It wouldn't boot when selected as the startup disk or using the C key at startup. I thought maybe I had a bad CD so I ordered the set from LinuxPPC.com. These arrived yesterday along with the FWB Disk Tools PE CD. The Disk Tools CD boots just fine. Still no luck with the LinuxPPC CD. On the comp.os.linux.ppc there seem to be quite a few installation problems with this release. So now I'm working my way through alternative installation methods.

I bought FWB Disk Tools as soon as I read Alexander's post about using it for backup. After reading the TiVo Hack FAQ I sure wasn't going to do anything without a backup. Since I did a device copy of my HDR31202's Quantum I don't know how big a compressed copy will be but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will be small and have the "factory" password. I also have a second TiVo, a HDR112, that I got as a refurb, that is going to be my hacking machine. It has the dealer demo so it will probably be a large backup. I plan to install another image from my original 30 hr A drive in the HDR112 on an 40 GB LCT20.

quote:

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However, for things like running Maxtor utilities and unlocking Quantum drives, a PC is still necessary. The needed apps for these steps haven't been ported to the Macintosh. I had to use a PC at work during long winter hours to run the utilities. (Thankfully the first 30hr unit I got my hands on--my mother's--did not have a locked drive.)

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I've been lucky and haven't had any locked drives to deal with. I did my upgrade using 2 - Quantum LCT20s. After reading all of the issues that were being reported about Maxtors I decided to err on the side of fewer hours. Now that my Quantums are nearly full I have seen some stuttering.

I have a theory: stuttering arises from a combination of limited disk space and fragmentation. I think the software needs two things to keep stuttering to a minimum: space and time. The space is required to keep the data in contiguous blocks. The time is to defragment the drive. I notice that the drive is very busy almost all of the time. I only record about 5 hours/day. I've only had time to watch about 2 hours/day. The drives are real close to being full. Most of the recordings are marked to save until I delete. TiVo suggestion recording is turned off.

quote:

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All my efforts have involved using software I either already possessed or could be freely and legally acquired. (Toast came with my CD-RW drive.)

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Toast came with my CDR drive also but I haven't gotten to the point with LinuxPPC where I can mount my TiVo drive.

quote:

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Now I have a new PC invading my home. I'm assembling a system myself. Unfortunately my first attempt resulted in an overheated CPU (AMD Thunderbird 1.1 GHz). "Smoked" is the technical term for its state, and I won't get a replacement until Wednesday. Without the sound card I have yet to purchase, that system cost me $800.

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Well as mentioned in my previous post I just purchased a pile of PCs. I'm sorting my way through finding out just what I have. The piece that excites me most is a full ATX tower that has 4 - 5.25" bays and 7 - 3.5" bays. It currently has a P-120 CPU but I envision something a bit more energetic (dual P3 866s or P3 966s). I intend to keep three of the boxes, one as a Linux workstation, one as a Linux server and one as a Windows Professional workstation. I may make the first one a dual boot with Windows 98SE if I can't get a CD-RW working with Linux. I plan to put two removable HD racks in the Linux workstation to simplify swapping TiVo drives in and out.

quote:

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I'm about ready to add a 60 GB to my second TiVo and restore my original 14hr drives to virgin 1.2.1 and 1.3.0 condition. I've been holding off as I've been waiting for the 2.0 release and Tiger releasing his new hack to utilize all of two drives so I could have two units with a 60-60 and a 45-45, but I guess I can settle for two 45-60 units. That, and I've wanted to see if I could install a DVD-ROM into the second unit instead and port LiViD to the TiVo.

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Yes it will be time for me to do the revert to virgin step soon also. I have a spare 40 GB LCT 20 that I am going to image with the virgin HDR31202 A drive. When the word comes from Otto I'll do the swap.

I'd like to take Tracer's trick of bank switching pairs of drives one step further by adding a menu option to the TiVo that allows on screen selection of an alternative bank with a reboot to select it. I'm a long way from there though.

quote:

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Unfortunately, between work and watching TiVo, I don't have much time left to hack anymore. Maybe when I switch to working four 10hr shifts instead of the five 8hr shifts I work now.

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Yes, I know the problem. My advantage is that I'm semi-retired and self employed.


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A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location:
Posts: 422

quote:

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Originally posted by HTH:
Unfortunately my first attempt resulted in an overheated CPU (AMD Thunderbird 1.1 GHz). "Smoked" is the technical term for its state

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scutter:
I thought the technical term was "BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"?

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Heh. I know a hardware site that got a 1GHz Athlon a few months ago that lasted precisely 8 seconds. Guy put processor on, then slapped on a heatsink (one of the very nice Alpha [no relation to the CPU] ones), but picked the wrong one (the same one in my current computer) - it had little 'feet' for the for Intel CuMine chips (Celeron, PIII). End result was a nice little gap between the die and the heatsink. It's around [H]ard|OCP somewhere. It was key-chained .

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 3582

quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman:
Toast came with my CDR drive also but I haven't gotten to the point with LinuxPPC where I can mount my TiVo drive.

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I have a genhd.c patch given to me by squeet modified for LinuxPPC use, but haven't gotten around to installing it. I found myself having problems getting yaboot to accept a SCSI drive as a host for the kernel file. Went through all the steps to find the precise device path and at the end it announced it wouldn't work off a <scsi-2> device. Had to repartition my ATA drive so I'd have a small HFS partition to host the kernel. Still haven't gone to the trouble of compiling in the patch.

I have accessed the drive myself though. I did a dd conv=swab copy from my backup to another drive, edited the start of the partition map to make it have the Macintosh magic number and block size and suddenly I could access the whole thing directly under LinuxPPC.

quote:

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The piece that excites me most is a full ATX tower that has 4 - 5.25" bays and 7 - 3.5" bays.

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Sounds just like the case I got for mine. $70. Blue-green (depending on lighting) buttons and matching decorative bottom front panel? Both sides come off, motherboard can fold out if you leave out three screws, keep two others loose, and unscrew cards from back plate? (If only the back plate would fold down with the motherboard like in the Blue G3 case.)

quote:

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I may make the first one a dual boot with Windows 98SE if I can't get a CD-RW working with Linux. I plan to put two removable HD racks in the Linux workstation to simplify swapping TiVo drives in and out.

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What's the best way to do a multi-boot system? Mine will be starting with just a 48X CD-ROM and a 27.2 GB Maxtor, but I have Windows 98, plan to get some kind of PC Linux, and possibly putting Windows NT 4.0 on it as well (that's what I have to use at work).

quote:

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Yes it will be time for me to do the revert to virgin step soon also. I have a spare 40 GB LCT 20 that I am going to image with the virgin HDR31202 A drive. When the word comes from Otto I'll do the swap.

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My two 14hr drives are just for reference, not for upgrade. But I have a spare 45 GB drive I can use (as soon as I'm sure I've recovered as much as possible from it--never hook up two masters on the same bus) to receive a virgin 1.3.0 image. As I have two TiVos and concerns about locking to crypto chips, I'll need to make two backups. Put virgin in TiVo 1, download, reboot to install, shutdown, backup, revirginize, put virgin in TiVo 2, upgrade, download, reboot, shutdown, backup, restore backup 1 to TiVo 1, restore backup 2 to TiVo 2. Sign up for about 80 season passes again between the two of them.

quote:

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I'd like to take Tracer's trick of bank switching pairs of drives one step further by adding a menu option to the TiVo that allows on screen selection of an alternative bank with a reboot to select it. I'm a long way from there though.

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Swapping out drive pairs though is so inconvenient. Give me a RAM disk (or drive) big enough to hold just partitions 1-9 and make my second drive contain only partitions 10 and 11. By having the second drive contain all the MFS space, both application and otherwise, one should be able to swap just one drive. Requires ability to move primary drive data to another drive and enlarge it or add second MFS partition to it on second drive. Does limit total available capacity per configuration, but avoids multiple Rube Goldberg devices needed to swap drive pairs.

There, this is my 1000th posting.

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Registered: Apr 2000
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Posts: 1

FWIW:

This is a somewhat quick discription of what my current development enviornment looks like...

2 Development SA Tivo's
1 Developen DirecTiVo
1 athalon 950
1 athalon 750
1 Celeron 374
1 Dual Celeron 464
2 Laptops

I've got a bunch of other computers that get into the mix at times, but those are the main boxes.

2 of the tivo's are hooked up via serial cables to one of my boxes (For PPP) the 3rd box is hooked up via the ethernet adapter directly to my 10/100 switch (depends on my mood which one had ethernet on a given day... usually it's one of the SA's)

All TiVo's have at a minimum the following software (see http://tivo.samba.org/download/tivotechie/ ):
Menuboot
httpd-tt.tcl (for the Web Based Remote)
busybox
cpipe
osdwr (and some image files)
some other tools which are in development
some custom tcl scripts

When the tivo boots it initializes the video, and sets that clock)
makes sure that:
PPP (or ethernet is started)
httpd-tt is running
starts a script to tail -f all logs to port
binds a shell to a port
binds a tivosh to a port
starts a FTP server
displays a message on the tv out to the effect that it was booted properly

after the unit boots I can telnet to it and start myworld or the other
tivo apps if I want, or I can go about my development.

Each development tivo and computer has 2 IDE swap trays mounted in it (some computers have 3 or 4 swap trays) most development tivos have 2 drives in them... one drive will have a minimum of a 15gb extra ext2 partition on it)

all the video outs of the Tivos are sent to a gang of AV switch boxes that allow me to display any one on one of my computers of the main TV... each computer has either a BTTV card or an ATI all in wonder.

The toolset on the PC's varies... most are running Linux-Mandrake 7.2 with a custom patched kernel to allow access to the TiVo Partitions (not the MFS ones).

My TiVo Toolchain is pretty complex... and is kind of hard to document, as it's grown... but it's basically a cross compiler based off the tivo toolchain from 1.3 with additional headers and libraries that have evolved over time, plus patches to some of the headers.

There are a bunch of scripts I use for setting compile paramaters and such (at some point I'll release those too)

The faster PC's are used basically for compressing large files, and long compiles... the slower box (374) is used basically to control the rest of the boxes, look at web pages and documentation, and general research. The Laptops are used to stay on IRC, keep extra web browsers open, and sometimes to get access to the other tivo's that aren't in my development area.

All the PC's have a minimum of 256mb, most have 512mb of ram.

I'm working on a lot of things right now...
a patch for genhd.c to automatically turn on Byte Swapping (if needed for tivo Drives)
Some have to do with httpd-tt
some have to do with the disk
some have to do with "pure hack value" hacks
They will be anounced when the time is right ;-P

Ok,
that's enough for now.

-TivoTechie

[This message has been edited by TivoTechie (edited 02-14-2001).]

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

First, HTH congratulations on your 1000th post. Thank you for using it to contribute to my expanding understanding of this topic. And here I was feeling kind of puffed up about reaching 50 (posts that is).

quote:

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Originally posted by HTH:
I have a genhd.c patch given to me by squeet modified for LinuxPPC use, but haven't gotten around to installing it. I found myself having problems getting yaboot to accept a SCSI drive as a host for the kernel file. Went through all the steps to find the precise device path and at the end it announced it wouldn't work off a <scsi-2> device. Had to repartition my ATA drive so I'd have a small HFS partition to host the kernel. Still haven't gone to the trouble of compiling in the patch.

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Hmm, this is worrisome. I have been trying to get linux installed on a SCSI device. As you may know the G3 has both IDE and SCSI busses. My current configuration is:
IDE 1 Master: the standard MacOS boot disk
IDE 2 Master: the ATAPI CDROM drive
SCSI internal buss contains 4 GB Hard Drive and a 1 GB removable media Jaz Drive

I have the 4 GB HD partioned with 1.5 GB as MacOS 9.0.4 and the rest Linux /root and swap. My thinking is to be able to pull the two IDE devices out and be able to stick two TiVo devices in and have access to them from Linux running off of the SCSI device and to be able to do compressed backups to the MacOS partition for eventual writing out under MacOS. Is this a pipe dream. OBTW, I'm so new at this I don't even know what genhd.c is. From what I've read I assume its the linux kernel code that handle disk IO.

quote:

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I have accessed the drive myself though. I did a dd conv=swab copy from my backup to another drive, edited the start of the partition map to make it have the Macintosh magic number and block size and suddenly I could access the whole thing directly under LinuxPPC.

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Sweat is starting to bead on my brow.

quote:

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Sounds just like the case I got for mine. $70. Blue-green (depending on lighting) buttons and matching decorative bottom front panel? Both sides come off, motherboard can fold out if you leave out three screws, keep two others loose, and unscrew cards from back plate? (If only the back plate would fold down with the motherboard like in the Blue G3 case.)

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Yours is much nicer. Mine has a big one piece wrap over cover that is attached by screws. The MB is screwed to a fixed base plate. But I got the whole thing P-120 MB (will do 166, wee doggies), 48 MB RAM, 2 GB HD, Ethernet, and 56K modem for about $40.

quote:

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What's the best way to do a multi-boot system? Mine will be starting with just a 48X CD-ROM and a 27.2 GB Maxtor, but I have Windows 98, plan to get some kind of PC Linux, and possibly putting Windows NT 4.0 on it as well (that's what I have to use at work).

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As my previous remarks indicate I am not the person to ask. But I think it involves the boot sector on the C: drive and that you want to install Windows before anything else because it is not very well behaved. I'm reading "Using Linux" by Jack Tackette, et al and it has a section on this associated with partitioning. I'll let you know more as soon as I figure it out. Send me your E-mail via PM as this seems a little off topic for this forum.

quote:

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My two 14hr drives are just for reference, not for upgrade. But I have a spare 45 GB drive I can use (as soon as I'm sure I've recovered as much as possible from it--never hook up two masters on the same bus) to receive a virgin 1.3.0 image. As I have two TiVos and concerns about locking to crypto chips, I'll need to make two backups. Put virgin in TiVo 1, download, reboot to install, shutdown, backup, revirginize, put virgin in TiVo 2, upgrade, download, reboot, shutdown, backup, restore backup 1 to TiVo 1, restore backup 2 to TiVo 2. Sign up for about 80 season passes again between the two of them.

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It will be interesting to see what 2.0 has up its sleeve. This is one of the reasons that I thought the Removable HD Racks would be useful. I also want to have 1.3 as a fall back position if I don't like what 2.0 does to my system. But I'm not going to worry about it to much. TiVo as appliance works just fine for me. I have the life time subscription and my wife has no more doubts as to the wisdom of the purchase. TiVo as toy is a separate box down in my office and I'm willing to have TiVo have it's way with the appliance if neccessary.

quote:

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Swapping out drive pairs though is so inconvenient. Give me a RAM disk (or drive) big enough to hold just partitions 1-9 and make my second drive contain only partitions 10 and 11. By having the second drive contain all the MFS space, both application and otherwise, one should be able to swap just one drive. Requires ability to move primary drive data to another drive and enlarge it or add second MFS partition to it on second drive. Does limit total available capacity per configuration, but avoids multiple Rube Goldberg devices needed to swap drive pairs.

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You have thought this through much further then me. The RAM disk is a good idea. One of the biggest down sides of the upgrade is the time that it takes to make changes to the recording and deletion scheduling. Many things take almost 15 seconds to transition. I've been thinking about things like co-processors and overdrives but this is much more then I'm technically capable of at this stage.

Have you done the RAM upgrade? If so, what if any benefit have you noticed?

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A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

[This message has been edited by voxelman (edited 02-14-2001).]

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfield, IA, USA
Posts: 24

quote:

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Originally posted by TivoTechie:
FWIW:

...(humongus post [I should talk] telling about dream TiVo hacking system(s) - see above)...voxelman

Ok,
that's enough for now.

-TivoTechie

[This message has been edited by TivoTechie (edited 02-14-2001).]

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location:
Posts: 1

quote:

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Originally posted by voxelman:
What do you do in your day job?

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