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05-22-2002 09:22 PM

Hi8
TiVoPro - wanabe!

Registered: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 65

TiVo2TiVo - Possible?

Just wondering... after I've installed a TurboNET card, and TiVoWeb - along with TiVoAPP .

seeing how flexible these guys are, has anyony attempted to get two or more TiVo's to talk to each other?

Seems like it may be possible, being able to transfer recorded shows to another TiVo in the house on the same network.

just wondering....

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~Hi8

(1) Sony SAT T-60
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05-22-2002 09:41 PM

supervhs
Member

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 3

TiVos shipped with 1.2 and 1.3 software had scripts on them that clearly showed that videos could be loaded onto the TiVo and properly show up on the Now Showing list. Unfortunately, noone is publicly talking about actually doing this, primarily (I think) because extraction is a banned topic here.

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05-22-2002 09:46 PM

Black_Dragon
Delicious

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 5

But that wouldn't be video extraction, just moving it from one TiVo to another. And hot damn I'd love to be able to do that. It's the number one thing about the Replay units of which I'm envious.

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05-23-2002 12:02 AM

Saturn
Headless again.

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 3615

I would *imagine* if SonicBlue wins their case in court, TiVo will follow suit and enable video transfers between local TiVos, at least. Otherwise, the ethernet capibility serves little purpose besides saving TiVo some $$$ by getting updates via a secondary 'net connection.

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05-23-2002 12:29 PM

MighTiVo
TiVotarian

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

I wonder if we could get David and possibly Pony to ok the discussion and support for transferring programs and or settings from one TiVo to another.

Again, not extraction to an open format on a PC but transferring of a program from one TiVo to another and geting it to show up in Now Playing with an appropiate title.

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05-23-2002 03:42 PM

jmoak
-no title-

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 1000

being able to see and play the vids from the now showing screen of another local nett'ed tivo would almost be the holy grail to me....

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05-23-2002 04:51 PM

supervhs
Member

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 3

The scripts that were on 1.2 and 1.3 s/w tivios were complete and had several steps:

Load the movie:
exec ele2pestriple videofile.mpv videofile.mpa $mfsPath

Create video data:
Date and Time
Recording Length
Title and Description
Expiration
etc......
the above loaded into Now Showing

The hard part would be getting the video files to begin with and that would almost certainly involve a banned topic.

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05-23-2002 05:06 PM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

quote:
Originally posted by MighTiVo
I wonder if we could get David and possibly Pony to ok the discussion and support for transferring programs and or settings from one TiVo to another.

Again, not extraction to an open format on a PC but transferring of a program from one TiVo to another and getting it to show up in Now Playing with an appropriate title.

Moving the video at all would violate the DMCA, unless you get permission from the content owner first. The question is, who owns the content? The sat & cable companies, or the distribution companies, or the companies in the MPAA?

Sadly, it will never be the content creators.

TiVo has said that they WILL include home sharing so maybe they are working on agreements, or maybe they think that the MPAA will leave them alone as long as the recordings don't leave a residence.

-SteakMan-

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05-23-2002 05:39 PM

supervhs
Member

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 3

hmmmmmmm
Does that mean when I move my hard drive from my A TiVo to my B TiVo, that I am violating DMCA?
Or if i do a video capture, using say Dazzle, and then load that video on my TiVo?

They will have to build more jails.

quote:
Originally posted by SteakMan
Moving the video at all would violate the DMCA, unless you get permission from the content owner first. The question is, who owns the content? The sat & cable companies, or the distribution companies, or the companies in the MPAA?
-SteakMan-

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05-23-2002 05:45 PM

jmoak
-no title-

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 1000

Aye, Matey!
where be me eyepatch 'n hook?

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05-23-2002 07:02 PM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

quote:
Originally posted by supervhs
hmmmmmmm
Does that mean when I move my hard drive from my A TiVo to my B TiVo, that I am violating DMCA?
Or if i do a video capture, using say Dazzle, and then load that video on my TiVo?

They will have to build more jails.

Nope, your examples are legal. The recording to a hard drive is only legal because of a loophole for radio stations. You just can't move or otherwise copy the recorded data. Moving the recording medium does nothing to the data. The Dazzle capture goes through an analog conversion so the DMCA does not apply. That reminds me that I forgot to mention before that the DMCA only affects the combo units.

Moving recordings from Standalones to other places (Standalones, combos, or PCs) does not violate the DMCA, but IS subject to standard copyright laws and fair use rules.

-SteakMan-

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05-23-2002 07:12 PM

Black_Dragon
Delicious

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 5

quote:
Originally posted by SteakMan
Moving the video at all would violate the DMCA, unless you get permission from the content owner first. The question is, who owns the content? The sat & cable companies, or the distribution companies, or the companies in the MPAA?

Sadly, it will never be the content creators.

TiVo has said that they WILL include home sharing so maybe they are working on agreements, or maybe they think that the MPAA will leave them alone as long as the recordings don't leave a residence.

-SteakMan-

Actually, I don't believe it would violate the DMCA. The DMCA prohibits "devices" that circumvent copyright control "devices" such as encryption, rights management software, etc.

Strictly speaking, the TiVo has no such "device" for "protecting" copyrighted material. In fact it has the save to VCR functionallity built-in. If they haven't sued over save to VCR, then they won't sue over TiVo to TiVo transfers over a local network. Or it at least would be hypocritical of them to do so.

rant = True;
I believe that SonicBlue will win the lawsuit brought against them on the basis that they haven't done anything wrong. If Viacom, Disney and GE didn't want people watching thier TV shows, maybe they shouldn't have freely broadcasted them in the first place. I mean, what's the difference between me recording a show and sending the recording to you, and you recording the show in the frist place?
rant = False;

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05-24-2002 04:34 AM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

quote:
Originally posted by Black_Dragon
Actually, I don't believe it would violate the DMCA. The DMCA prohibits "devices" that circumvent copyright control "devices" such as encryption, rights management software, etc.

You probably think that from reading about DeCSS and the case against 2600. You understand that part correctly, but it is only a small segment of the DMCA. There is also a segment that deals with boat hull designs.

The DMCA is a stupid stupid law.

BTW, I haven't said this lately: IANAL, but I've read the whole text and I'm pretty sure I understand it

-SteakMan-

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05-25-2002 04:17 PM

MighTiVo
TiVotarian

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

quote:
Originally posted by SteakMan
Moving the video at all would violate the DMCA, unless you get permission from the content owner first.

Please explain how, I disagree with your assertion.

The DMCA grants an exemption from the law to ephemeral recordings (copies of recordings). In order to qualify for ephemeral recording exemption, only the person who made the recording can use it, you must destroy the copy within six months unless you intend to preserve it solely for archival purposes and you make only one copy.

and

Q. In recent congressional testimony, the Chairman of the Recording Industry Association of America (�RIAA�) said that it is not �fair use� to make a copy of your own CD to play in your car. Does any law or court case say this?

A. No. Audio home recording is covered by the general principles of fair use recognized in the Betamax case. In the HRRC view, the law as interpreted by the Supreme Court protects the sale of home recording devices, both video and audio, to consumers, and recognizes that the fair use rights of consumers include private, noncommercial home recording, such as making a tape for your car.

So what is different from making a tape for your car and making a duplicate for your second TiVo?

Finally:

At a February 28 Senate Commerce Committee hearing, the heads of the MPAA and two major studios purported to drop all attempts to do this[ turn off for all purposes (including viewing) home interfaces ]. They:

�characterized prior home taping concerns as "history,"

�said they have no present concerns over home recording so long as content is not uploaded to the Internet, and

�said they would no longer insist on the ability to shut off in-home product interfaces based on such concerns ("selectable output control" or "extended CCI").

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05-25-2002 04:52 PM

Ilovetorecord2
Member

Registered: Mar 2000
Location: South San Francisco, CA
Posts: 129

Okay but don't throw rocks at me.

If they are regular tivos could you just put the one tivo out to the other tivo in and have the other tivo set up like the setup to record from satellite, i.e. I don't have regular tivos and I forgot the setup but you set it up to record like from a vcr to tivo (tivos setup when done record on channel 3 but all the channels are the same picture).

Hey, what can I say, I still have my sleep disorders with a twist.

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3 directivos upgraded each to 108 hr

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05-26-2002 12:14 AM

marcos
New Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 3

Tivo to Tivo copying

Here's a question:

If I own two identical Tivos is it okay (technically, legally, and/or ethically) for me to take out the harddrive(s) out of one and copy them onto the harddrive(s) out of the other?

If this is okay can I automate the process so that it happens over the ethernet every night at a certain time?

I figure as long as I don't record any shows on the second Tivo I'm not violating any license agreement I have with Tivo and presumably this isn't any different than owning two VCRs and moving tapes from one to the other so the program content copyright holder shouldn't care.

marcos

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05-26-2002 02:37 AM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

quote:
Originally posted by MighTiVo
Please explain how, I disagree with your assertion.
The DMCA grants an exemption from the law to ephemeral recordings (copies of recordings). In order to qualify for ephemeral recording exemption, only the person who made the recording can use it, you must destroy the copy within six months unless you intend to preserve it solely for archival purposes and you make only one copy.

That is the exception that lets you legally rip a CD and/or record the DirecTV signal to a hard drive. The one copy mentioned is the copy you are playing to the TV.

quote:
Q. In recent congressional testimony, the Chairman of the Recording Industry Association of America (�RIAA�) said that it is not �fair use� to make a copy of your own CD to play in your car. Does any law or court case say this?

A. No. Audio home recording is covered by the general principles of fair use recognized in the Betamax case. In the HRRC view, the law as interpreted by the Supreme Court protects the sale of home recording devices, both video and audio, to consumers, and recognizes that the fair use rights of consumers include private, noncommercial home recording, such as making a tape for your car.

So what is different from making a tape for your car and making a duplicate for your second TiVo?

Making a tape for your car throws in an analog conversion so the DMCA would not apply. Duping a CD to CD-R does violate the DMCA, but who is going to prosecute a consumer?

quote:
At a February 28 Senate Commerce Committee hearing, the heads of the MPAA and two major studios purported to drop all attempts to do this[ turn off for all purposes (including viewing) home interfaces ]. They:
�characterized prior home taping concerns as "history,"
�said they have no present concerns over home recording so long as content is not uploaded to the Internet, and
�said they would no longer insist on the ability to shut off in-home product interfaces based on such concerns ("selectable output control" or "extended CCI").

That is very good news, it doesn't change the law, but it is very good news.

-SteakMan-

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05-26-2002 02:38 AM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

quote:
Originally posted by Ilovetorecord2
Okay but don't throw rocks at me.

If they are regular tivos could you just put the one tivo out to the other tivo in and have the other tivo set up like the setup to record from satellite, i.e. I don't have regular tivos and I forgot the setup but you set it up to record like from a vcr to tivo (tivos setup when done record on channel 3 but all the channels are the same picture).

Hey, what can I say, I still have my sleep disorders with a twist.

Yup, the line in is analog.

-SteakMan-

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05-26-2002 02:41 AM

SteakMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 765

Re: Tivo to Tivo copying

quote:
Originally posted by marcos
Here's a question:

If I own two identical Tivos is it okay (technically, legally, and/or ethically) for me to take out the harddrive(s) out of one and copy them onto the harddrive(s) out of the other?

If this is okay can I automate the process so that it happens over the ethernet every night at a certain time?

I figure as long as I don't record any shows on the second Tivo I'm not violating any license agreement I have with Tivo and presumably this isn't any different than owning two VCRs and moving tapes from one to the other so the program content copyright holder shouldn't care.

marcos

This is no different than the extractstream argument. It is legal with standalones and illegal with DirecTV TiVo's.

-SteakMan-

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05-26-2002 05:19 AM

Jahntassa
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 12

And of course we all realize that this is the same argument as being able to take a CD that you bought, and then transfer it to a portable device such as an MP3 player.

Are you breaking the law because you're making a digital copy? Or is it within the law because you're using it for your own personal use?

Nevermind the fact that ANYTHING compressed is -NOT- an exact digital copy of anything else. I would argue that the data on a Tivo is not an exact digital copy, and shouldn't be affected by the DMCA.

Of course, we have a government that considers digital anything to do with non-analog, no matter how bad the digital is (compression)

And this is all coming from a guy that owns one of the origional Rio 300's that the recording companies tried to have ban..so..take that as you want!

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