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>>> Time for an HMO Developers forum? <<<

 
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bootedbear is offline Old Post 04-18-2004 01:19 AM
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bootedbear
JavaJunkie

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 142

Time for an HMO Developers forum?

It looks as though there is an increasing amount of interest in developing plug-ins and servers for HMO. Might it be time for a separate forum devoted to us software dweebs interested in developing for HMO?

That would help keep the geek-speak out of the general HMO forum, and give developers a focused area to discuss the nuances of programming for HMO.

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David Bott is offline Old Post 04-18-2004 06:26 PM
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David Bott
Administrator

Registered: Jan 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 1399

Hi...

If they are talking about hacks for it, then it should be in the Underground section and not in the general section. The HMO area is for the talk about the software as delivered by TiVo.

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bootedbear is offline Old Post 04-19-2004 10:58 AM
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bootedbear
JavaJunkie

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 142

No, no hacking. What I am talking about is software development using the specifications published at http://www.tivo.com/developer/ by TiVo themselves.

quote:
The HMO area is for the talk about the software as delivered by TiVo.


That was sort of my point -- a developers forum would give HMO developers somewhere to talk geeky outside of the general HMO forum.

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David Bott is offline Old Post 04-19-2004 07:09 PM
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David Bott
Administrator

Registered: Jan 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 1399

Yes, correct...and as such, it is a hack. It is more or less a programming change and as such, it should be in the hacking area where programmers develop enhancements. Hacking is programming and developing.

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David Bott
TiVo Community Admin
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flar is offline Old Post 04-30-2004 12:18 PM
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flar
Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 44

Definition of "hacking"

David,

I appreciate all of the work that you do to create and maintain this forum, but I fear that you may be misunderstanding a detail here and potentially insulting some people by your response.

There are potentially many reasons why it may not be desirable to create an HMO developers forum at this time and there may be other reasons why the current "hacking" forums are the best available workaround, but you do a disservice when you state that the "hacking" forums are the definitive place for such discussions to take place.

In particular, hacking is a form of software development, but it has a specific negative connotation that cannot be divorced from it. Hacking is always used to describe software development that occurs under less than ideal conditions (at best) or under potentially illegal or harmful conditions (at worst). It can often (and most typically) mean using a software system or modifying it in a way that goes against the express or implied wishes of the original developer. The only times I have ever seen it used to describe honest software development were cases where it was used in jest by a fellow software developer similar to the way that many minority groups may use pejorative terms to refer to each other.

I understand that for most people outside the software development community, this word is not always used with its original connotations in mind. In particular, your statement:

quote:
Originally posted by David Bott
Yes, correct...and as such, it is a hack. It is more or less a programming change and as such, it should be in the hacking area where programmers develop enhancements. Hacking is programming and developing.

is most definitely a slap in the face of any software developer *I* know, but perhaps you are not familiar with the nuances of that word.

Bootedbear already tried to correct you on this misconception in an earlier post here but your response indicates that either you don't understand the distinction, or perhaps that you don't care. Either way, your response was based on a misunderstanding and it would probably be wise to rephrase your take on the matter lest you offend people who are trying to use publicly documented programming methods and interfaces that TiVo themselves are allowing and indeed encouraging people to use. Certainly none of the posts I see on the current "hacking" forums are talking about documented public methodologies and interfaces that TiVo suggests that we use to enhance or use our TiVos.

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Jim Graham
TiVo Series 2, named AIVAS, 80 hour, lifetime service, HMO

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David Bott is offline Old Post 04-30-2004 11:19 PM
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David Bott
Administrator

Registered: Jan 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 1399

Sorry Jim you seem to have taken offense to it. I have been a programmer for many, many years. I mean not disrespect to a programmer they programs for the betterment of a product. The the fact remains, that if you are changing software code...you are hacking it. Ne it for good, or bad. This site has all kinds of "hacks" to make it run like it does.

Call it what you would like...hacking, development, improvements, re-coding, etc...it all can come down to the same thing.

All in all nothing more was meant by it other than to please use the areas of the site already set for such programming additions. Their really is not enough of it to warrant a new section.

Thanks

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David Bott
TiVo Community Admin
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flar is offline Old Post 04-30-2004 11:35 PM
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flar
Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 44

quote:
Originally posted by David Bott
Sorry Jim you seem to have taken offense to it.

I'm not really taking offense to it so much as realizing that you don't really understand the distinction between what is being discussed in the current hacking forums and developing new HMO software to TiVo's published specs.

quote:
I have been a programmer for many, many years. I mean not disrespect to a programmer they programs for the betterment of a product. The the fact remains, that if you are changing software code...you are hacking it. Ne it for good, or bad. This site has all kinds of "hacks" to make it run like it does.

No. Absolutely not. I'm surprised that you don't get this distinction if you truly are a programmer. What goes on in the hacking forums is finding ways to use the TiVo products that TiVo does not document or support. TiVo has never told us how to turn on the 30 second skip, or at least not officially in any documentation that I've received with my products. But people know how to do it and they share that information. That is hacking.

On the other hand, TiVo specifically documents and supports extensions to HMO that use their published software specs. They themselves tell us how to do it and they themselves would like us to do that, not just because we find it fun to do, but because it makes their product better in a way that they specifically would like to see it made better. Programming to that published interface is absolutely not changing the software, it is providing new services that work with the existing unchanged software in a way that was specifically designed into it by the original program authors. In a related topic, when a video card manufacturer provides device drivers for a new card they've developed and you download them and install them on your computer, you are most definitely not hacking your computer to install them and the card manufacturer did not hack the drivers. You are using official published interfaces in both cases. You are simply installing new software.

quote:
Call it what you would like...hacking, development, improvements, re-coding, etc...it all can come down to the same thing.

Not really. One is "playing around with your device". The other is "answering TiVo's call to arms to provide supported enhancements".

quote:
All in all nothing more was meant by it other than to please use the areas of the site already set for such programming additions. Their really is not enough of it to warrant a new section.

Thanks


As I said in my original post, I can understand that there may not be enough of a demand for this and that the current hacking forums are the closest forum we have to this type of discussion, but what is being attempted here is absolutely not hacking...

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Jim Graham
TiVo Series 2, named AIVAS, 80 hour, lifetime service, HMO

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