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>>> Help with OTA bars on Digital Channels? <<<

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ddarche is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 06:36 AM
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ddarche
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Belmont, Calif
Posts: 94

Help with OTA bars on Digital Channels?

Hi All,

Ok, so you have probably seen a few posts from me, where I have been dissapointed with how my HD Tivo handles the OTA channels, with the bars on the left and right.

I have begun to setup wishlists and it is very nice. I totally love the recording capabilities and all of the options. However, bars on broadcasts which are not in HD is leaving me a bit unfulfilled and irritated. It threatens to burn in my Mit (which is already a bit burned in) and of course, makes my 65" Mits feel like a 50" TV.

I had been using a Hughes e86 HD receiver and it allowed zooming so that 4:3 content filled the whole screen (slightly overscanned but acceptable) on my Mits WS-65909. When a HD broadcast came on, I would switch to 16x9 and the picture was stunning, in HD.

However, daytime TV (and weekend daytime TV) has to be viewed with bars on digital OTA (which is a dramatic improvement over Direct TV locals) or I have to watch analog SD which totally pisses me off, especially knowing I could be watching digital OTA, which is so much better.

I am on the fence with the Tivo and I have been toying with returning it and and waiting for some next generation unit which will handle the OTA portion with some enhancements. If it is 3-6 months, I could live with that.

Is there any chance that this issue could be solved by future software upgrades or is that an empty possibility?

I have even considered keeping the Tivo and hooking my Hughes e86 back up so that we could watch daytime TV without the bars that seem to come with OTA. Again, any recordings I make will be with bars off digital OTA but at least if we are watching live TV, I could watch on the Hughes, without bars.

I am trying to accomodate the Tivo into our viewing habits but this problem with bars on OTA is really a deal breaker.

Any thoughts?

Thx Dave

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SoonerDoc is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:10 AM
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SoonerDoc
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i agree that this should be implemented into the next software upgrade....most of the OTA programming at this time is not in HD and the digital OTA locals are WORLDS better than the directv locals....how hard would it be (have been) to implement a zoom mode to zoom in on the 4x3 material encapsulated in a 16x9 frame???

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:11 AM
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feldon23
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Registered: Mar 2001
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Why is OTA exclusively a problem?

Aren't you unable to squash/stretch ALL 4:3 material including all 130 DirecTV SD channels?

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ddarche is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 11:33 AM
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ddarche
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OTA Digital still has bars

I am not sure what the difference is, but the OTA digital channels all have bars, except when it is an HD broadcast. Even when they go to commercials while in an HD broadcast, the commercials have bars. But when it returns to HD, it is full screen and very nice.

The D* channels all seem to be in zoom mode or something and do not have bars. Even in 1080i format, they fill the screen fine. I can do some minor manipulation on my Mits WS-65909 but only in 480p and 480i, not 1080i.

Regardless, the few Format functions of the Mits do not help the problem. The Mits adds Narrow and letterbox format which does not eliminate the bars, actuallly makes them worse.

I don't understand what the difference is between the digital OTA and the D* channels, but somewhere in the Tivo, it makes a difference.

I am really wondering if this can be fixed by future software upgrades or if I am stuck with what I have.

My Hughes e86 HD managed the OTA digital signals differently and allowed me to adjust for zoom and it then filled the 16x9 screen. It was very watchable with just a hint of zoom.

Any other thoughts out there? Still on the fence about keeping the Tivo. I can't deal with the bars on OTA. But I would like this to be my primary D* receiver and the recording functions are really great.

Thx Dave

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indy is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 06:08 PM
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indy
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Registered: May 2004
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I hooked mine up last night and have the same problem also with my OTA FOX. I am surprised there aren't more comments on this topic. Seems like a potential "deal breaker".

Let me get this straight...the problem exists on OTA broadcasts that are NOT 1080i, right? That would explain my problem with FOX. My old HD-SAT520 had the additional options too that allowed me to expand and fill the screen nicely.

Please tell me there is a solution to this.......

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midas is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 07:20 PM
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midas
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Can't you just switch the output to 480i or 480p to get the stretch modes you want? If it's not an HD broadcast, you aren't going to notice any difference in quality.

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Mike Lang is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 07:57 PM
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Mike Lang
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SD programs from DTV fill the 16:9 screen at any resolution while OTA digitals leave side bars at any resolution. The TV's stretch modes at 480 only distort what's in the 4:3 box while always leaving the side bars.

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CutisDoc is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 08:08 PM
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CutisDoc
Proud HDTivo Owner

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Seems to me then that a solution would be to watch your SD broadcasts on the D* provided locals and the OTA if you're looking specifically for a HD broadcast.

What about the other SD channels? Do all other have the bars also- OR if you select multiple outputs will the HDTivo know what to do? Meaning- if you have 480i selected will it fill the 16x9 screen and let my Mitsu stretch the picture? If so, does this mean I have to constantly toggle the 480i/p and 1080i resolutions?

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RickGartner is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 08:19 PM
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I am also having the same issue with OTA broadcasts and I agree if this can't be fixed with a firmware upgrade I have to consider returning the unit.

I don't understand why it would work fine with DTV channels, but be disabled on an OTA broadcast. The OTA signal is far superior to DTV as far as picture quality, I just wish I could use my entire screen!

How can this group get feedback to DirecTV about this problem? A single phone call doesn't seem to carry much weight, but if an entire group of people are asking for a change it can make a difference.

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borghe is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 08:29 PM
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borghe
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I am absolutely baffled here... what are we talking about?

are you talking about the black side bars on some OTA channels? if so, those are put in by the channel.. they have nothing to do with Tivo...

or are you saying that you have gray side bars even when in full mode with the Tivo?

My tivo can go into full or panel mode just fine on OTA channels... unless the station is sending a 16:9 signal with side bars on it.. then my TV or Tivo can't do anything..

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borghe is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 08:36 PM
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borghe
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after rereading your post a couple of times, it is starting to make a little more sense.. especially when you mentioned the side bars during commercials and full screen when it goes back to programming..

what you are seeing is not being done by the Tivo.. it is being done at the station. When a station sends a 4:3 signal out they have a few choices.. first is whether to change the resolution to 480 or leave it at 1080. If they leave it at 1080 the signal HAS to be 16:9. If it goes out at 480 it can be either 16:9 or 4:3, however you risk the likely scenario of corruption of the ATSC stream and locking up most STBs. So stations leave their signal at one resolution, usually 1080i.

As I said, 1080i HAS to 16:9. No ifs ands or buts. To make matters worse, most TVs won't allow you to change a 1080i signal (apply a stretch mode to it) and most STBs won't let you change between modes on a 16:9 signal. This combination basically means that when a station send out 16:9, the image will always fill your screen and is unable to be modified.

This leaves the broadcaster 2 options. Either stretch the image to varying degrees, or stick bars on the side of it and present you with a 4:3 image. ESPN does the former, most other stations do the latter.

But like I said, it isn't Tivo. Every STB behaves in this manner.. Now if your E86 allowed you to change modes, we aren't talking about the same thing.. But the only time I have ever seen material go from 4:3 to 16:9 was when the station was sending it out at 16:9 and just adding black bars to the side of 4:3 material.

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BruceL is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 08:49 PM
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BruceL
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borghe - I think the point here is that even when viewing OTA thru the 480i output (S Vid) you cannot use the stretch modes offered by various TV / Monitors.

I have a Pio 510. When viewing an OTA digital station (non HD broadcast but sent by the station at 1080i) at 480i thru SVid, I can use the Natural Wide mode and stretch the 4:3 picture to fill the 16:9 screen. This is using a DTC 100.

Using the exact same broadcast thru the HD Tivo (@ 480i thru SVid), I have a framed (side bars) picture and even though the 510 still shows it as using Natural Wide.

Changing the Aspect Ratio on the HD Tivo (4:3 or 16:9) does not change this.

This is not the same as receiving Pillorboxed commercials during a HD broadcast.

This is present on all 4 Major Network OTA channels out of Wash. DC

Bruce

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ddarche is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 09:35 PM
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ddarche
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quote:
Originally posted by midas
Can't you just switch the output to 480i or 480p to get the stretch modes you want? If it's not an HD broadcast, you aren't going to notice any difference in quality.


No, on my Mits WS-65909 it does not have any format changes that improve the process. There is one available in 480i which zooms but then the Tivo gui is off the screen as well.

And the OTA picture is WAY better than the compressed locals on Sat. Very big difference on a large format TV.

Dave D

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 09:59 PM
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feldon23
MythBuster

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1821

"filling the screen" (stretching) is unacceptable to me.

It seems like you are unhappy with your local TV stations preserving the 4:3 ratio of the material they're broadcasting, which necessitates black bars on the sides.

As has been stated in this thread, if you would rather have squashed/stretched material that "fills the screen", switch to 480i output and then use the stretch modes on your Mitsubishi TV.

The picture quality won't be as good but since you are stretching 4:3 material to 16:9, the picture quality mustn't be that important anyway.

The TiVo (And most DirecTV receivers for that matter) cannot zoom/stretch 1080i material to do what you want.

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borghe is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:02 PM
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borghe
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ok ok... so we are only talking about this behaviour on the 480i output? That would explain why I haven't seen it then...

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ddarche is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:05 PM
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ddarche
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quote:
Originally posted by borghe
I am absolutely baffled here... what are we talking about? Are you talking about the black side bars on some OTA channels? if so, those are put in by the channel.. they have nothing to do with Tivo.


Yes, they are added within the broadcast and have nothing to do with Tivo except many other DirecTV receivers offered built-in zoom capability to fill the screen. On my e86 Hughes, I could leave it in 4:3 and full screen and on 1080i it was fine. When an HD broadcast came on, I could change to 16x9 and it was fine.

quote:
or are you saying that you have gray side bars even when in full mode with the Tivo?


Yes, when viewing OTA in 1080, 480i and 480p the full or panel setting has NO impact. It only seems to have an impact on the Sat receiver, not the OTA receiver.

quote:
My tivo can go into full or panel mode just fine on OTA channels... unless the station is sending a 16:9 signal with side bars on it.. then my TV or Tivo can't do anything..


I think all of the OTA signals are coming in 16x9 (here anyway). Makes no difference if Tivo is in 4:3 or 16x9, the full or panel switch does not allow it to go to full. It will add panels but "Full" still has bars left and right.

Dave D

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dsspotato is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:08 PM
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dsspotato
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Everything is sent 4:3!!!! This lies the problem...

quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
Why is OTA exclusively a problem?

Aren't you unable to squash/stretch ALL 4:3 material including all 130 DirecTV SD channels?



This is not only an OTA problem. It is a problem when either the OTA or DirecTV channel are broadcast in HD.

According to my Panasonic Plasma there are many many combinations of stretching you can do, and trust me I have tried them all. Options for my TV, Tivo and broadcast are as follows:

Panasonic Plasma: Normal / Zoom / Full / Just
HD Tivo: Full / Panel
OTA or DirectTV Source: SD 4:3 / SD Letterbox / HD 4:3 / HD 4:3 Letterbox / HD 16:9

My Panasonic image modes only work at 480i and 480p with component in. 720p and 1080i will not allow switching of modes. So I use 480p for testing.

My point is that it seems that both HD 16:9 and SD 4:3 at 480p is both sent to my plasma as 4:3!!!. Believe it!!!

When I have my plasma at "Normal" mode I see the HD signal at 4:3, and I have to put it to "Full" mode to see the 16:9 image. I also see the SD 4:3 channels at 4:3 in "Normal" mode as well. It is as if all the signals are 4:3, and nothing is 16:9. Try it!!!

It is when you set the Tivo to 720p or 1080i that the signal is sent to the TV at only 16:9 for both HD and SD stations. This means that all stations are stretched into the 16:9 size.

At least in 480p mode for SD stations, I can use the "Just" mode to make it look better than the 720p or 1080i stretch mode. So, I always use "Just" for DirecTV SD stations at 480p, since 720p and 1080i look stretched.

Second point: With the following above to be true, it is the HD stations, whether OTA or DirecTV, when broadcasting 4:3, that send a 4:3 signal with bars on the left and right. So if I set my TV to "Normal", set the Tivo to 480p, and select a HD station broadcasting 4:3, you see two sets of Grey bars on the left and right. The outmost bars are from the TV and the inner bars are from the broadcaster. So when you stretch this, using the TV to Full or Just mode, all you can get rid of is the TV bars, not the broadcast bars. This is where the problem is. Again, try it for yourself.


Conclusion:
We need one more mode on the "Ratio" button. But it seems that the "Ratio" button does NOT work with HD, only SD. So not sure how they will accomplish this.

Currently we have:
(FULL) - Display full picture.
(PANEL) - Adds panels to the side to make 4:3 source not stretch when viewed on a 16:9 TV. "Burn in warning!!"

Add to the chain:
(ZOOM) - This will exclusively stretch 4:3 HD signal to get rid of the broadcast bars on the left and right.

Or, my TV needs a new stretching mode to super stretch the sides.

ok. any questions???

-John

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ddarche is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:18 PM
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ddarche
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quote:
Originally posted by borghe
But like I said, it isn't Tivo. Every STB behaves in this manner.. Now if your E86 allowed you to change modes, we aren't talking about the same thing.. But the only time I have ever seen material go from 4:3 to 16:9 was when the station was sending it out at 16:9 and just adding black bars to the side of 4:3 material.


If it is not Tivo than it is DirecTV's implementation of their tuner. The Hughes e86 allowed me to set the tuner to 4:3 and a had a crop mode and it filled the screen. I think many other receivers offered the same thing.

Tivo or DirecTV's implementation in the tuner or setup leaves me with bars no matter what I do. The Full or Panel toggle does absolutely nothing on OTA tuner in ANY aspect ratio or in 4:3 or 16x9. It actually adds top and bottom panels in one of the aspect ratios but never allows full screen.

If this is an oversight, it is a big one. It almost seems like they wanted the OTA not work well so people would be forced to buy locals on DirecTV.

Dave D

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borghe is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:21 PM
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borghe
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ok, I am still not understanding this... is this in 480i output only?

In 1080i ouput mode, I can add gray panels to all of my 4:3 OTA broadcast shows (this does not include shows sent from the station as 16:9 with blacks bars on both sides). I can't add panels to any 16:9 broadcast shows (including 4:3 shows sent as 16:9 with black bars on the sides). HOWEVER, on my E86 (still in the bedroom as OTA only), I also couldn't change the screen AT ALL on 16:9 material at the box, just like the Tivo.. The only difference in 1080i between the Tivo and E86 that I have come across is that the E86 gave a linear scale mode that would top off the top and bottom of the screen a little bit but not distort the picture... is that what we are talking about?

quote:
Tivo or DirecTV's implementation in the tuner or setup leaves me with bars no matter what I do.

in 480i or in all modes? in 1080i the only bars that I can't get rid of are the ones sent by the station in 16:9 mode, and I couldn't get rid of those on the E86 either..

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BruceL is offline Old Post 05-21-2004 10:22 PM
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We are really talking about the freedom to excercise options. Most if not all SD material from D* is broadcast as 4:3. When using my series 1 Tivo or my DTC 100 (using SVid), I have the option to view it as 4:3 (pillorboxed) or stretch it to fill the screen using the stretch modes on my Pio 510.

When receiving OTA digital with the DTC 100 (with the HD switch off) and using SVid, I had the same option - I could view it pillorboxed 4:3 or use the 510 Natural Wide to stretch (non linear and quite good).

With the HD Tivo (SVid outputting 480i) I still have the option to view D* SD as pillorboxed or stretched. I do not have that option with OTA digital.

Even given the fact that the digital broadcast may be sent as 1080i, but not HD, the 510 only reads the 480i output of the HD Tivo.

I am neither an OAR fanatic or an it must fill the screen fanatic. I watch DVDs at 480p which only allows the "Full" option on my TV.

Sligtly OT of this, I have not noticed any significant difference in HD between the DTC 100 and the HD Tivo - D* SD is also about the same.

I will say that there is not a lot of difference between true HD using the 1080i output and the 480p output (both thru component). I would assume that there is very little loss of information in the downconversion (as 480P would be comparable to 960i).

Bruce

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>>> Help with OTA bars on Digital Channels? <<<

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