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>>> 2.0.1 z16 Severely Dropping S-video Resolution <<<

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Guy Kuo is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 04:06 PM
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Guy Kuo
Advanced Member

Registered: Feb 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 7

Talking 2.0.1 z16 Severely Dropping S-video Resolution

I just received the 2.0.1 z16 software update and it appears to have a severe bug which will most adversely affect users who use a high resolution display such as an FPTV projector. My Philips TiVo under 1.3 would easily achieve 400 TVL horizontal resolution when recording in best mode via its S-video input. A bug in 2.01z drops this to below 250 TVL even in best mode or the live buffer. I first suspected something was awry when the banner data generated by my satellite receiver (connected via s-video) appeared very blurry during live video mode. I ran the AVIA resolution wedge pattern through the TiVo's s-video input and was aghast at what has happened to image resolution. The reduction in image resolution is severe enough to render the TiVo nearly unwatchable on a FPTV.

The bug can be easily ellicited by displaying the s-video input and then pressing channel up a few times. Often just a single channel up operation will trigger it. I can reliably cause the bug to clear by going to the live video guide, selecting a CABLE channel, and then selecting a "satellite" channel to once more view the s-video input. The first time the TiVo returns to s-video the image quality is normal and measures 400 TVL. Upon pressing channel up once or certainly by twice, the bug is triggered and horizontal resolution plummets to 200 to 250 TVL.

(Clarification -- Channel Up/Down is NOT the only way the bug is triggered. It happens if the TiVo switches from one channel fed in by a video input to another channel fed in by a video input. This can be during a channel change to catch a To Do list item or suggestion. The important thing is that the channels are both sourced via s-video or composite video rather than RF)

This is not affected by turning the RF smoothing on or off. Nor is it affected by changing recording image quality. The problem appears in both the live buffer and in scheduled recordings. I have not as yet checked to see if the degradation is occurring on the composite video input.

On smaller (less than 60 inch) screens, the drop in image quailty may not be noticed by users excited by the new 2.01 features, but this is a TiVo killer for large screen viewers.

The software displays s-video correctly when it initially switches from RF to s-video, but fails during any subsequent channel changes by either channel up/down or guide selection. The problem clears immediately upon selecting an RF (cable) channel. It only seems to be a problem if the TiVo switches from one channel on s-video to another channel on s-video.

In case you don't realize who is reporting this bug. I'm the designer and creator of the video test patterns in the AVIA DVD. I've checked this with three s-video sources and it is consistent. 2.01z16 001 version software looks to have a bug which drastically reduces image quality of the s-video input.

------------------
Guy Kuo
www.ovationsw.com
Ovation Software, the Home of AVIA DVD




[This message has been edited by Guy Kuo (edited 04-14-2001).]

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stevel is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 05:28 PM
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stevel
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 7476

Talking

Interesting. I haven't noticed this problem with my ISF-calibrated 53" Sony XBR, but you certainly have the credentials to back up your claim. I'll be interested to see what comes of this.

------------------
Steve

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Old Post 03-21-2001 07:11 PM
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Schipperke
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Wink

quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevel:
with my ISF-calibrated 53" Sony XBR

</font>


Whoa.. Hi-Society for sure...

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Old Post 03-21-2001 07:20 PM
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PensfanATL
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Talking

Thank you for confirming what my eyes already knew!

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dd9 is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 08:19 PM
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dd9
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Posts: 206

Talking

quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Guy Kuo:
I first suspected something was awry when the banner data generated by my satellite receiver (connected via s-video) appeared very blurry during live video mode</font>


Ah ha...So it wasn't my eyes playing tricks on me!

I noticed the same thing right after the new SW was installed, but didn't know what to make of it. I figured it was some sort of 'blur-filter' like they used to have.

Thanks for the explanation. I hope they bring the quality back.



[This message has been edited by dd9 (edited 04-15-2001).]

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Shaddow is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 08:30 PM
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Shaddow
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Registered: Oct 2001
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Talking

For those around during 1.2 or 1.2.1 and the upgrade to 1.3, this is the same thing that was seen during 1.2.1 that 1.3 fixed. I think the same procedure (switching from a sat channel to a cable channel and back, removed the blur until a change to another sat channel) fixed it then too.
Here is a couple links to some threads from that era.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001548.html
and
http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Arc...8-8-001621.html
If you do a search on blur in the archives theres a number of posts about it

[This message has been edited by Shaddow (edited 03-21-2001).]

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Guy Kuo is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 08:57 PM
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Guy Kuo
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Registered: Feb 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 7

Talking

How disconcerting that an old flaw has resurfaced in a revamped version of the software. The loss in image resolution is completely intolerable compared to how great it looked under 1.3. This is a MUST FIX problem in basic functionality. Dropping image resolution almost by half isn't a little change. I'd strongly suggest we apply as much pressure as possible to get this corrected.

It's very plain to see if one runs a resolution wedge pattern through the TiVo to see what it is doing to the signal. FIne details completely disappear and become a gray blur when the bug insinuates itself with a channel change operation. If I had seen the TiVo before 1.3 and it had this problem, I'd be recommending against the machine for anyone remotely interested in image quality. Thankfully, I only saw the machine with 1.3 when it had full resolution. This update definitely needs a fix. Let TiVo know, folks.

------------------
Guy Kuo
www.ovationsw.com
Ovation Software, the Home of AVIA DVD


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stevel is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 09:05 PM
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stevel
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 7476

Talking

quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Schipperke:
Whoa.. Hi-Society for sure...

</font>


Not really - but if you're going to get a projection TV, it pays to spend a bit more and have it properly calibrated, since the factory setup is designed to make it "jump out" in a brightly-lit showroom. A good calibration also sets the color temperature to be accurate and uniform across the gray scale, something you can't do from the user controls.

------------------
Steve

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sbourgeo is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 10:26 PM
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sbourgeo
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Talking


Has anyone tried this with composite video?


Steve

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Steve

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abrown is offline Old Post 03-21-2001 10:55 PM
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abrown
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Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
Posts: 7

Talking

I've seen the same thing (on s-video). And it's very noticeable even on a small 20" TV set, especially when the sat box's menus are displayed.

This is definitely one of the worst changes in 2.0.1. The existence of the "blur filter" was a huge deal back in the 1.2 days, and its removal was one of the most-anticipated features of 1.3.

I've noticed a bunch of other smoothing/filtering-related glitches in 2.0.1--I've got one noisy antenna channel that sometimes is smoothed and sometimes isn't, depending on whether I switch to it from a sat or OTA channel.

Has anyone seen the problem on a box that's satellite only? I have my suspicions that it has something to do with using the dual-input OTA/DSS configuration.

Hopefully, TiVo will fix this again for the next release!

--Aaron

------------------
Philips 30 hour, 2.0.1

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Old Post 03-22-2001 09:13 AM
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IeraseU
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I don't notice a difference in Best Quality when using satellite.......I do notice a difference in OTA channels because of the RF filter...however, I do believe you can turn this filter off or on in your preferences...

------------------
"We are the last generation of people who will remember analog TV.......The Future is HDTV"
SVR-2000 v2.01

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Guy Kuo is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 11:05 AM
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Guy Kuo
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Registered: Feb 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 7

Talking

It is easily demonstrated that a nearly 40% decrease in luminance resolution occurs when the bug is triggered. Some things are most obviously seen with test patterns. A resolution wedge gets completely decimated by the problem. With 1.3, this didn't occur. On my 100 inch screen, it makes a huge difference. An observer with even a small screen should be able to see it if they feed in a test pattern or look at the grid lines from a satellite box. I see it in normal video material but I'm used to critically evaluating images. I'm surprised that so few people are actually looking at the TiVo image fidelity using objective and repeatable tools.

------------------
Guy Kuo
www.ovationsw.com
Ovation Software, the Home of AVIA DVD


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Dewman is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 12:46 PM
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Dewman
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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Port Huron, Mi. ,USA
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Talking

I don't have the fancy equipment you guys have Just a 11 year old 48" panasonic I did notice a not as clear picture on playback of prgs that were recorded before upgrade.I'm using the low end video quality.

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TiVolutionary is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 01:04 PM
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TiVolutionary
Unemployed Geek

Registered: Jul 1999
Location: Sunnyvale, CA, US
Posts: 15

Cool

Just to let you know, I'm chasing this, have reproduced it, think we can fix it very quickly because it's a resource, not code (hackers can explain that to you), but that we'll probably not stop 2.0.1 for it.

ETA for a fix is short. (less than the time until our next release)

Cheers,
-RB

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abrown is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 01:23 PM
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abrown
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Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
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Thumbs up

quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TiVolutionary:
Just to let you know, I'm chasing this, have reproduced it, think we can fix it very quickly because it's a resource, not code (hackers can explain that to you), but that we'll probably not stop 2.0.1 for it.
</font>


Thanks for the update (and the as-usual great service!)

--Aaron

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Guy Kuo is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 01:39 PM
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Guy Kuo
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Registered: Feb 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 7

Talking

Glad to hear it is likely to be corrected soon. It would have wreaked havoc in any technical shootout between TiVo and other PVR's if imaging quality is tested.

------------------
Guy Kuo
www.ovationsw.com
Ovation Software, the Home of AVIA DVD


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Old Post 03-22-2001 01:42 PM
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TivoKing
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Question

Does this mean when a resolution is available 2.01 will be updated?

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Old Post 03-22-2001 10:02 PM
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zimmy6996
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Richard-

I am glad you were able to reproduce this problem. I hope you guys can fix it soon. While I really like 2.0.1, it is very annoying watching a show that is blurry.

I started TiVo with 1.2, and it had the blur problem. It didn't bother me all that much because I just attributed the blur to "This is how TiVo is."

With 1.3, it was like the TiVo was brand new! It brought all new life to the system.

Now with 2.0.1, there has been new life brought to the TiVo, at the cost of the blur issue. While I can ignore the blur issue for a few weeks, because of all the nice new features in 2.0.1, the new features will be short lived, and the annoying blur is what you have to look at all the time.

Sure hope you guys can fix this in a few weeks, cause I would almost rather trade off the great new features of 2.0.1, to have a clear screen in 1.3.

Not a slam on you guys at all! I know you guys are doing everything you can, and then some, to make sure people are being taken care of. I am just giving some insight.

Chris



------------------

Chris Zimmerman
Internet Solutions
http://www.isolnet.com
(888) 476-5638

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Old Post 03-22-2001 10:09 PM
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keiths
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Is it possible to downgrade to version 1.3 until this bug is fixed? I have to say it severely ruins the usefulness of TiVo. I think I will be watching more "live" TV until the solution is available. Richard, thanks for your prompt attention, it gives us faith that we won't be stranded!

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Mike Lang is offline Old Post 03-22-2001 10:19 PM
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Mike Lang
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Registered: Nov 1999
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Cool

When Dr. Kuo says there's a video glitch...there's a video glitch.

------------------
Mike Lang
Moderator: TiVo Coffee House, Happy Hour, Tips & Tricks, Open User Surveys Forums
It's only the internet, it's not real life. If it upsets you...turn it off!

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>>> 2.0.1 z16 Severely Dropping S-video Resolution <<<

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