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>>> TIVO HMO and Gigabit Ethernet Works Great! <<<

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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 06-23-2003 09:39 PM
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Dennis Wilkinson
Advanced Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: East Freetown, MA
Posts: 917

quote:
Originally posted by HTXpertGuy
The only thing I wanted to address for fact is no matter what, a wired network is ALWAYS better than wireless if you can access it. They are certainly more reliable and won't slow down. Granted, Wireless "G" is better, but even 5 plus years there won't be anything near as good as wired because of FCC mandates and other matters. Therefore, the point is, why not have TIVO make it the best with Gigabit Ethernet support?


Technical issues aside (yes, we're probably "in violent agreement" and quibbling over semantics) this is the root of my disagreement.

Having Gigabit Ethernet in a TiVo is of absolutely NO use to the people who don't have the infrastructure for it. Sure, my house is wired for 5e (and being a residence, wired with lots of short runs.) But my house was built within the last 3 years. For many people who live in all those OTHER houses (you know, the vast majority of them that were never wired for Ethernet of any flavor) having gigabit on the mobo is of no value whatsoever. But wireless or phoneline might be. Even with a house that is wired, the entertainment center may not be, so wired might be best for that case.

I'd much prefer to pay only for what I'd use. The USB+dongle scenario does that, and with USB 2.0, it'll probably provide more than enough bandwidth for the things TiVo needs bandwidth for for the next several years, at least.

So yes, having gigabit on the motherboard is good for you. But you're in a very small minority of TiVo's target market.

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 06-23-2003 09:56 PM
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MighTiVo
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
I disagree that TiVo needs to build in the Ethernet support. USB 2.0 combined with 100baseT would be fast enough on a switched network for the TiVos, and on a switched network the TiVos wouldn't disturb/slow down the other devices. For existing homes, wireless or HPNA might be better choices. I wouldn't want to see TiVo include all of them. Heck, they could even drop the internal modem, and ship each box with your choice of adapter: modem, Ethernet, 802.11, HPNA, whatever.



I can't find it now, but there is available a chipset that allows a single hardware interface the ability to support HPNA, Modem, or Enet.

Even without the all in one solution, I still believe built in Enet is a better solution than USB dongle.

IMHO it just is a bad decision to require an external device that a consumer must purchase separately. Especially when there is a limit as to which devices that all seem to look the same will actually work because of the hardware used and the drivers necessary. It is bad enough you have to buy a USB cable when you buy a USB only printer!

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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 06-23-2003 10:28 PM
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Dennis Wilkinson
Advanced Member

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Posts: 917

Covering all the wired formats in one chipset is nice, but still doesn't cover wireless, which is probably going to be a significant number of target users.

quote:
Originally posted by MighTiVo
IMHO it just is a bad decision to require an external device that a consumer must purchase separately.


As I suggested earlier, you could just bundle the dongle of choice with the box as part of the cost of the box. More SKUs to manage for TiVo, Inc., but it eliminates the "now I have to go and buy a what?" reaction for the end user.

That being said, if TiVo can ship a box that does it all, wired, wireless, without increasing the price, I wouldn't have a problem with that..

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 03:53 AM
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MighTiVo
TiVotarian

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
As I suggested earlier, you could just bundle the dongle of choice with the box as part of the cost of the box. More SKUs to manage for TiVo, Inc., but it eliminates the "now I have to go and buy a what?" reaction for the end user.

That being said, if TiVo can ship a box that does it all, wired, wireless, without increasing the price, I wouldn't have a problem with that..



Why add a dongle to the box, much cheaper to add to the MB. Keep the USB for wireless and whatever else you want to add but I think they should include the ports for enet and modem for ease of use.

However TiVo is apparently in the cost saving mode so saving $1 on each box in liu of some percentage of consumers paying $44 + $5 shipping (price of USB dongle from TiVo ) is apparently a good decision for them...

My unsubstantiated opinion is that the cost of adding enet to every box is less than the total cost consumers pay to add the USB dongle to those that do so. Enet is very standard and is not going to change soon. And 10meg is plenty for TiVo although 10/100 would be cheaper to add..

I don't think adding wireless to every box is a good decision, the standards are still changing, speed, frequency, encryption, etc. The OEM cost is also fairly high still and likely comes with additional governmental testing costs. With my expectation of the low penetration of wireless I think unlike enet, the overall cost is cheaper with consumers footing the bill for the extra parts.

HPNA has such a low penetration it doesn't make sense to add to every box either.

Finally with Enet built in you could simply add a bridge to wireless or HPNA so that all your Home entertainment center devices (Xbox, playstation, standalone MP3 player, Inet streaming stereo, etc, could all plug up to a single hub/switch and then bridge the group to wireless or HPNA to the other systems in your house or Internet access.

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 04:05 AM
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MighTiVo
TiVotarian

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

quote:
Originally posted by jdfs
I doubt gigabit would provide much, if any, of a performance boost over 100Mb. On 7200 RPM disks, the transfer speeds top out at 100Mbps. I doubt all that could be utilized anyway since the hardware is also always writing (live buffer) and reading (if not paused). So the direct links from the Tivo to the switch can be 100 Base-TX and the shared links (switch to switch), or links to devices that can utilize it, could be gigabit to keep network congestion down.

Also, gigabit can run over CAT5 cable.



I thought it was 40MB/s for IDE and the top speed SCSI drives at 15K were aroud 60MB/s. Still at least 5 times more data than 100Mb/s though and both should fit fine in a Gig link. However the data stream from TiVo isn't that big and real time transfer fits just fine in a 10Mb/s envionment.

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 04:06 AM
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MighTiVo
TiVotarian

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

If you want Gigabit here is a 8 port Linksys for $165 with free 2nd day air.
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/Produ...ductCode=252291

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Smiles is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 11:40 AM
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Smiles
Sid Hoffman

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 3043

quote:
Originally posted by HTXpertGuy
Actually Steakman, you are citing examples from non supported white papers that the consortium for TIA does not support today. I read the article in the link of your last post and this is OLD. Plus, it only talks about CAT 5 and is still NOT CORRECT. Offically, CAT 5 NEVER, I repeat, NEVER supported Gigabit. It was CAT 5e which was speced in the final white papers by TIA and the consortium to achieve Gigabit at the maximum levels. Running it over plain CAT 5 was never an option. Your paper here is full of old and incorrect information in certain major areas.

Strangely, the 802.3 standard doesn't agree with you. (You can pick up a copy for free here. Check out Clause 40, which is referenced by Clause 34.1.2. Specifically, Clauses 40.1 and 40.7. Also Annex 40A.)

Running Gigabit Ethernet over the 1995 Category 5 standard is an option. However, TIA updated the standard to what is now Category 5e. One of the key differences is that 5e has more headroom. Legacy Cat5 should be tested prior to 1000Base-T implementation, of course, since old Cat5 may not meet the performance requirements of 802.3ab for full-duplex operation. But the 802.3 standard clearly references the 1995 version of 568A, which is the legacy Cat5. A major thrust of Gigabit Ethernet was to provide higher speed on existing infrastructure.

All installations going forward, of course, should be using Cat6, or Cat5e if Cat6 is prohibitive.

(But you don't need to drop technical matters; you might be surprised by some of the backgrounds of fellow forum denizens.)

My own opinion about Gigabit Ethernet on a TiVo motherboard is that it's not a wise use of resources at this time. I'd rather they work to support a wide array of USB dongles so you can choose the technology that works best for you.

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BlankMan is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 10:03 PM
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BlankMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Smiles
(But you don't need to drop technical matters; you might be surprised by some of the backgrounds of fellow forum denizens.)

Or post credentials, learned that a long long time ago myself....

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gschoen is offline Old Post 06-24-2003 10:26 PM
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gschoen
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Registered: Jan 2002
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When they add the Gigabit ethernet, Ithink we should also drop this SLOW IDE hard drive spec and use SCSI instead (just a little more expensive) AND the processor is just so SLOW, sometimes I have to wait a full second for NP to come up. The new units should be build with the fastest P4 available. And some faster RAM, with at least 1GB provided. This would really improve my Tivo experience and I would welcome the chance to pay another $1,000.

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Smiles is offline Old Post 06-25-2003 10:29 AM
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Smiles
Sid Hoffman

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 3043

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
Or post credentials, learned that a long long time ago myself....

Credential fight!!!

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>>> TIVO HMO and Gigabit Ethernet Works Great! <<<

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