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>>> dvd-r vs dvd+r & dvd-rw vs dvd+rw <<<

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Ereth is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 03:21 AM
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Ereth
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Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Posts: 6819

Wait a minute, Raj! Do you mean to tell me that your quite vocal opposition to the DVD+ format is simply because you bought an early +R drive and it turned out to be non-upgradable and you had to buy another drive later?

Man, you know I love you, but GET OVER IT.

Technology moves on. I bought a Series 1 TiVo, guess what? It's not going to grow USB ports or get HMO, ever. I'd have to sell it and buy a new one. I'm not mad at TiVo for that.

My second computer was better than my first. My umpteenth computer was better than the one before it. Things move on.

You've got a valid concern with your particular DVD player not playing +R disks, but being upset because Philips didn't give you a free upgrade and being mad at the FORMAT over it is pretty silly. Be mad at Philips if you want, but don't let that animosity flow over into the realm of the format.

Looking objectively at the two formats, I've yet to see anyone come to the conclusion that - was superior to +. I had no axe to grind, and came to that conclusion based on data that you and Stevel and others put forth. I've had other people, independently of me, come to the same conclusion. The technical data is independent of your grudge against Philips.

Mt Rainier IS coming. What are you going to do then?

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Raj is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 03:44 AM
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Raj
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quote:
Originally posted by Ereth
Wait a minute, Raj! Do you mean to tell me that your quite vocal opposition to the DVD+ format is simply because you bought an early +R drive and it turned out to be non-upgradable and you had to buy another drive later?

Man, you know I love you, but GET OVER IT.



No Ereth. It's not simply being screwed over ONCE. It's being screwed over more than once. I bought a brand new DELL centrino laptop the other day with a +RW drive in it. Burnt a +R to test, disc refused to play in my player. Disc played in my PS2, but it hesitated before it played. Needless to say, I returned it. I'm buying a new IBM thinkpad with a DVD-R drive in it instead, and that's also what my school recommends.

DVD-R discs played like regular DVD's in every single player I tried, smoothly, and without hesitation.

Bear in mind that I have no desire whatsoever to put data on DVD's. Video is what I bought a DVD burner for, and compatibility is what's most important to me. Since +R and +RW refuse to play in my player, DVD-R definitely has the edge, for me at least.

I'm a cheap b@stard, so I look to save a few bucks wherever I can. Prices for +R and +RW discs are consistently higher than the prices for DVD-R and DVD-RW discs. SOmetimes they are even, but 9 out of 10 times DVD-R is cheaper.

quote:
You've got a valid concern with your particular DVD player not playing +R disks, but being upset because Philips didn't give you a free upgrade and being mad at the FORMAT over it is pretty silly. Be mad at Philips if you want, but don't let that animosity flow over into the realm of the format.


I have to be mad at the format. Not just Philips, but every manufacturer that made +RW PC drives deceived early adopters by promising a firmware update. The fact that I was promised and never received a free upgrade after paying almost $500 for a brand new drive that I had to offload on ebay for $200 is a serious problem. Every manufacturer made some sort of statement at least indicating if not promising a free upgrade to write once +R discs. It's not just Philips. Clearly, the +RW forum was designed to deceive with their false promises.

quote:
Looking objectively at the two formats, I've yet to see anyone come to the conclusion that - was superior to +. I had no axe to grind, and came to that conclusion based on data that you and Stevel and others put forth. I've had other people, independently of me, come to the same conclusion. The technical data is independent of your grudge against Philips.


I'm not saying that +RW doesn't have better features than DVD-RW. I'm just saying that DVD-R is an official, more compatible format, which every DVD player that complies to the DVD standard is required to be able to play. Can't say the same about +R. +R is a format that manufacturers have to choose to be able to play. It's not part of the official DVD standard set forth by the DVD Forum. In short, it's a hack, a workaround, whatever you want to call it, it's not part of the official DVD standard.

Tell me, is there a DVD logo on +RW and +R drives?

quote:
Mt Rainier IS coming. What are you going to do then?


I'll get a mac before I trust my data to packet writing optical drives!

Besides, I thought that DVD-RW was going to support Mt. Rainier too?

Sony and others are abandoning +R and +RW. Who's next?

__________________


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Last edited by Raj on 07-11-2003 at 03:51 AM

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Raj is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 04:08 AM
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Raj
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By the way, speaking of MS and Mt. Rainier:

http://www2.pioneer-eur.com/eur/com...20030519_DVRA06

quote:
Pioneer Europe today confirms the introduction of its new DVD/CD writer with an internal ATAPI connection for Windows. The DVR-A06 will be released in the summer this year and builds on the success of the DVD-R/RW format that accounted for 70 per cent [1] of the DVD writers shipped worldwide in 2002. The launch of the DVR-A06 follows the announcement on 8 May from Microsoft Corporation that the next generation of Windows will support the DVD-R/RW format as standard.


Microsoft press announcement is here.

Furthermore (back to original pioneer announcement):

quote:
Furthermore, through a wide variety of software, it is possible to produce DVD-Video discs and import data from discs recorded in the VR (Video Recording) format onto a personal computer. Other functions include data writing through "drag and drop," just like when using a floppy disc, and the ability for multiborder writing and editing on DVD-R and editing DVD-RW[7]. The DVR-A06 ultimately offers easy-to-use, more convenient DVD high-speed writing for PC users.


Yep, your eyes didn't deceive you. Features that were promised on paper for +RW drives are now actually being released on DVD-RW long before +RW.

+RW/+R promises, DVD-R, DVD-RW delivers.

It's interesting to see how this will all pan out.

__________________


In memory of Ed Hopper -- 5130 --

I'm noticing more and more how my life is beginning to mirror Raj's....YIKES!! --disco


1x107hr Sony DirecTiVo
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Last edited by Raj on 07-11-2003 at 04:12 AM

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Ereth is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 05:42 AM
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Ereth
MMM..Strawberry!

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Posts: 6819

quote:
Originally posted by raj2001
[B]No Ereth. It's not simply being screwed over ONCE. It's being screwed over more than once. I bought a brand new DELL centrino laptop the other day with a +RW drive in it. Burnt a +R to test, disc refused to play in my player. Disc played in my PS2, but it hesitated before it played. Needless to say, I returned it. I'm buying a new IBM thinkpad with a DVD-R drive in it instead, and that's also what my school recommends.

I don't see how that's being screwed over again, when you knew in advance that your particular player won't play DVD+R. It's kind of like buying milk to run in your car and when it doesn't work, buying a different brand. If your player won't play it, why did you even try? The format isn't going to fix your particular player, is it?

They don't hesitate in MY PS2.

quote:
DVD-R discs played like regular DVD's in every single player I tried, smoothly, and without hesitation.

I can make the same claim about DVD+R. Every player I've tried. Obviously we haven't tried the same set of players.

quote:
I'm not saying that +RW doesn't have better features than DVD-RW. I'm just saying that DVD-R is an official, more compatible format, which every DVD player that complies to the DVD standard is required to be able to play.

Then, if every player is required to be able to play it, why do even the DVD-R people only claim 90% compatibility? Shouldn't it be 100%?

quote:
Tell me, is there a DVD logo on +RW and +R drives?

Yes, on both of the two I own there IS a DVD logo.

quote:
Sony and others are abandoning +R and +RW. Who's next?


Really? Sony? Abandoning it? When they have the most popular DVD writer available, that writes both +R and -R? And they've got a combo drive for standalone as well as PC use? Doesn't look like abandoning to me (though it's true they don't support all the DVD+ features in order to simplify that standalone player).

I make DVDs for friends and co-workers. I edit them after I record them. I add to them after my friends watch them. I've never had a friend give it back and complain that they couldn't watch it.

That paragraph is not true of DVD-RW. No matter what political or "broken promises" problems you have, the plain and simple fact is that I can do MORE with my DVD+RW than I could if I had a DVD-RW. And I prove it every week.

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edrock200 is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 08:38 AM
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edrock200
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Northern VA/DC Area
Posts: 2052

quote:
Originally posted by raj2001
Out of curiousity, which brands of DVD players have you tried? Which ones didn't play DVD-R, but played +R?


An old apex ad-600a which plays everything I throw at it except -R's and another old Sony player, don't have model # on hand.

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logic88 is offline Old Post 07-11-2003 03:45 PM
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logic88
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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Land Of Flakes, Fruits, and Nuts
Posts: 1734

quote:
Originally posted by raj2001


Sony and others are abandoning +R and +RW. Who's next?



What's your source on this? Everything that I've read indicates that DVD+R/RW has caught up with DVD-R/RW and will in fact soon surpass DVD-R/RW in terms of unit shipments if it hasn't already. Dell, HP, and most others bundle +R/RW drives with their systems. The future is very bright for +R/RW. If anything, I look at -R/RW to be an orphaned format soon (for the PC side, at least).

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Raj is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 03:18 AM
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Raj
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quote:
Originally posted by Ereth
I don't see how that's being screwed over again, when you knew in advance that your particular player won't play DVD+R. It's kind of like buying milk to run in your car and when it doesn't work, buying a different brand. If your player won't play it, why did you even try? The format isn't going to fix your particular player, is it?


I didn't know it wouldn't play +R. I only discovered that AFTER I bought the laptop, which is when I tried other burners.

quote:
They don't hesitate in MY PS2.



Ever tried a DVD-R? You do notice a difference.


quote:
Then, if every player is required to be able to play it, why do even the DVD-R people only claim 90% compatibility? Shouldn't it be 100%?



The only players I've come across that doesn't play DVD-R are those that can't even play CD-R. Let me put it another way, DVD-R/DVD-RW is closer to the actual format, and comes from the same body that licenses the actual DVD specification. +RW is not.



quote:
Yes, on both of the two I own there IS a DVD logo.



I'm not talking about dual format burners, and I'm not referring to the playback capability, which is where the +RW drive might just barely qualify to get a DVD logo stamped on it. Furthermore, DVD Forum specifically says that they don't endorse +R and +RW.



quote:
Really? Sony? Abandoning it? When they have the most popular DVD writer available, that writes both +R and -R? And they've got a combo drive for standalone as well as PC use? Doesn't look like abandoning to me (though it's true they don't support all the DVD+ features in order to simplify that standalone player).



The entire reason why they had to go dual format was because +R/+RW couldn't stand on its own.

quote:
I make DVDs for friends and co-workers. I edit them after I record them. I add to them after my friends watch them. I've never had a friend give it back and complain that they couldn't watch it.



Send some to me.


quote:
That paragraph is not true of DVD-RW. No matter what political or "broken promises" problems you have, the plain and simple fact is that I can do MORE with my DVD+RW than I could if I had a DVD-RW. And I prove it every week.



Read my followup post where DVD-RW offers the features that +RW promised but has not yet delivered.

By the way, Mt. Rainier will work with both DVD-RW and the +RW format.

__________________


In memory of Ed Hopper -- 5130 --

I'm noticing more and more how my life is beginning to mirror Raj's....YIKES!! --disco


1x107hr Sony DirecTiVo
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edrock200 is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 03:34 AM
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edrock200
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Honestly I've seen articles that go both ways...a recent PC world article gives +R a "slight advantage over -R with compatibility" and dvdrhelp.com gives -R a 5% lead (85% vs 90% of players.)

IMO it really comes down to media. I've had great luck with quality media on most players where as cheap media of either kind gives me hit or miss results.

The advantage to -R is the media seems to be significantly cheaper, though +R seems to be catching up (especially with that recent BB deal.)

__________________
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Ereth is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 03:44 AM
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Ereth
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Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Posts: 6819

quote:
Originally posted by raj2001
I didn't know it wouldn't play +R. I only discovered that AFTER I bought the laptop, which is when I tried other burners.


Raj, I'm confused on the timeline here. You've said, several times, that you bought a first generation DVD+R burner, that you were promised would upgrade to DVD+RW, and that you couldn't play discs burned in that in your DVD player. That must've been a couple years ago, at least, to be first generation.

NOW, you bought a Centrino based laptop, which has only existed for a few months, with a DVD+RW burner and discovered (again?) that your DVD player won't play them? Why didn't you remember that from when you sold your original DVD+ burner?

quote:
Ever tried a DVD-R? You do notice a difference.

You must be more impatient than I. I usually don't play DVDs in my PS2, since I have a DVD player, but I've used it for testing purposes of burned DVDs, and I put the DVD in and it plays. If there's a second or two of hesitation, I would never notice, as its playing before I get back to the sofa to sit down and watch it.

quote:

The entire reason why they had to go dual format was because +R/+RW couldn't stand on its own.

And you can find the Press Release where they state this.. where? Or is it pure supposition on your (admittedly biased) part? MY supposition is that Sony figured there was a market for people like me, who were tired of this stupid format war going on and on and wouldn't jump in until the format had been settled. I refused to even consider a DVD burner until they had decided on one format or the other. I changed my mind when the dual format came out. Then I got the standalone and have been in the + camp ever since, but I would never have gotten there if there hadn't been a dual format burner to lure me in in the first place.

quote:
Send some to me.

What would be the point? We already know your player won't play them. By the way, there are MANY players listed on those master lists that will play DVD+ but not DVD-. (the particular unit my sister has is one, IIRC). I imagine the compatibility issues are fairly close to even.


quote:
Read my followup post where DVD-RW offers the features that +RW promised but has not yet delivered.

Read my post where I tell you what I'm doing TODAY, with my DVD+RW that DVD-R cannot do and has no plans to ever do as far as I know. How is that "delivering what DVD+ only promises?". I can do it, right now, anytime I want, with DVD+RW, but cannot, with any player available, with DVD-RW. Seems to me that + format delivers.

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Raj is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 04:51 AM
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Raj
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quote:
Originally posted by Ereth
Raj, I'm confused on the timeline here. You've said, several times, that you bought a first generation DVD+R burner, that you were promised would upgrade to DVD+RW, and that you couldn't play discs burned in that in your DVD player. That must've been a couple years ago, at least, to be first generation.


I bought a first generation +RW burner with my DELL system. These came out in late 2001, early 2002. It could only burn rewriteable discs. I burnt rewriteable discs, they played in my older Philips player (which my mom now has) but refused to play in my new Panasonic. I was told that the write once +R format would have better compatibility. I'm a sucker, I believed them, that's why I did this:

quote:
NOW, you bought a Centrino based laptop, which has only existed for a few months, with a DVD+RW burner and discovered (again?) that your DVD player won't play them? Why didn't you remember that from when you sold your original DVD+ burner?



Yes, because this +RW burner had the capability to burn write once discs, which I didn't have the capability to do before (first gen drive couldn't write +R discs). I was assured by practically everyone that they'd be compatible with many DVD players, and I was assured by many people that my DVD player would play it. Well, they lied, or at least, they were wrong. My DVD player refused to play the +R format discs.


quote:
You must be more impatient than I. I usually don't play DVDs in my PS2, since I have a DVD player, but I've used it for testing purposes of burned DVDs, and I put the DVD in and it plays. If there's a second or two of hesitation, I would never notice, as its playing before I get back to the sofa to sit down and watch it.



It's not a matter of impatience really, I could live with the few seconds more of delay, but it does indicate (to me at least) that there is something about the disc that the PS2 doesn't like.


quote:
And you can find the Press Release where they state this.. where? Or is it pure supposition on your (admittedly biased) part? MY supposition is that Sony figured there was a market for people like me, who were tired of this stupid format war going on and on and wouldn't jump in until the format had been settled. I refused to even consider a DVD burner until they had decided on one format or the other. I changed my mind when the dual format came out. Then I got the standalone and have been in the + camp ever since, but I would never have gotten there if there hadn't been a dual format burner to lure me in in the first place.



No press release really, but Sony has been using DVD-R/DVD-RW drives in Sony VAIO desktops and notebooks. It has not gone completely +R/+RW, instead opting for combo drives in its units. If Sony were truly backing the +RW/+R format like Philips is, they'd drop DVD-R and DVD-RW completely from their desktops and notebook PC's.


quote:
hat would be the point? We already know your player won't play them. By the way, there are MANY players listed on those master lists that will play DVD+ but not DVD-. (the particular unit my sister has is one, IIRC). I imagine the compatibility issues are fairly close to even.



Master list obtained from where? According to summaries of actual independent user testimonials, like from dvdrhelp.com, DVD-R is more compatible. Slightly more compatible, but more compatible. In the end, that's what counts in terms of compatibility, actual users, not lab tests from marketing companies (paid by the +RW alliance).


quote:
Read my post where I tell you what I'm doing TODAY, with my DVD+RW that DVD-R cannot do and has no plans to ever do as far as I know. How is that "delivering what DVD+ only promises?". I can do it, right now, anytime I want, with DVD+RW, but cannot, with any player available, with DVD-RW. Seems to me that + format delivers.



But Ereth, you can do what you are doing TODAY with DVD-RW, like edit menus and commercials on the fly. Ulead Moviefactory 2 has this capability for both DVD-RW and +RW.

+RW doesn't hold a monopoly on that technology like the +RW alliance would have you believe.

Don't believe me?
http://www.ulead.com/dmf/runme.htm

"Edit your +RW and -RW DVDs again and again "
"Modify any project you make directly on a DVD disc saving you time and hard disc space. "

__________________


In memory of Ed Hopper -- 5130 --

I'm noticing more and more how my life is beginning to mirror Raj's....YIKES!! --disco


1x107hr Sony DirecTiVo
1x35hr Hughes HDVR2 DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo

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Ereth is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 06:30 AM
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Ereth
MMM..Strawberry!

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Posts: 6819

quote:
Originally posted by raj2001
[quote]Master list obtained from where? According to summaries of actual independent user testimonials, like from dvdrhelp.com, DVD-R is more compatible. Slightly more compatible, but more compatible. In the end, that's what counts in terms of compatibility, actual users, not lab tests from marketing companies (paid by the +RW alliance).

(sigh) The lists on the Internet, at places like Meritline and your beloved dvdrhelp.com, where people list their player and what formats they can play. I certainly don't own thousands of players to test. People post what their player can and can't do, and it makes up a master list. When my friends call me to make them a DVD I go there and look up their DVD player and see what formats they can use, to make one compatible for them.

There's no such thing as true compatibility. Both formats fail in one drive or another. So I simply look up what people actually HAVE and make what they can use.

In my circle of friends, everybody can play +RW but not everybody can play -R. I have no political reason to say this, it simply is what I learned when I went to look it up.

My Panasonic A110, one of the very first 2nd Generation DVD player and over 5 years old, is capable of both DVD-R and DVD+R, but won't read either rewritable format. Your argument that a player has to be specially made to read DVD+R falls apart here, as DVD+R hadn't even been invented when the A110 was built, yet it can read it.

quote:

But Ereth, you can do what you are doing TODAY with DVD-RW, like edit menus and commercials on the fly. Ulead Moviefactory 2 has this capability for both DVD-RW and +RW.

+RW doesn't hold a monopoly on that technology like the +RW alliance would have you believe.

Don't believe me?
http://www.ulead.com/dmf/runme.htm

"Edit your +RW and -RW DVDs again and again "
"Modify any project you make directly on a DVD disc saving you time and hard disc space. "



Really? I don't see anything on their web page that indicates I could buy that new TiVo DVD burner, and burn one episode of Coupling to DVD, take the DVD to my sisters house, watch it in her standalone DVD player, then bring the disc back and record the next episode of Coupling next week, and take the disc back to her house to watch again, until such time as I've filled the disc.

Don't you have finalize a DVD-RW before it can be played in a regular DVD player?

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stevel is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 07:18 AM
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stevel
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Yes, DVD-RW discs do need to be finalized before playing in a regular DVD player (though I imagine there may be some with specific DVD-RW support that don't require this.) Once finalized, you have to erase the whole disc to reuse it.

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Raj is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 10:46 PM
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Raj
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quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Yes, DVD-RW discs do need to be finalized before playing in a regular DVD player (though I imagine there may be some with specific DVD-RW support that don't require this.) Once finalized, you have to erase the whole disc to reuse it.


I believe that's no longer true, Steve. Unfinalizing is possible without erasing the entire disc (I have to double check).

But all of this is really irrelevant to me as I do not have nor intend to use standalone DVD writers.

__________________


In memory of Ed Hopper -- 5130 --

I'm noticing more and more how my life is beginning to mirror Raj's....YIKES!! --disco


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Last edited by Raj on 07-12-2003 at 10:50 PM

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Ereth is offline Old Post 07-12-2003 11:22 PM
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Ereth
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Raj,
Explain that to me.

How does a standalone DVD writer come into it?

I was talking about standalone DVD players. Assuming I burn a DVD-RW with one episode of a TV show, and want to loan it to my sister to watch on her standalone DVD player and then burn another episode to it later, also to be watched on a standalone player, is that easy?

That's what I do with mine. I don't do so many movies as episodic TV. Movies are easier to just buy the DVD and get the 5.1 soundtrack and the extras and so on.

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>>> dvd-r vs dvd+r & dvd-rw vs dvd+rw <<<

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