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Old Post 06-27-2001 12:09 AM
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BeeJ
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Post "Will be deleted on" info updated

I'd like to which shows in intends to do delete next in the order it intends to delete them, and have this information updated after I've deleted tagged other shows. Unreasonable?

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-27-2001 12:16 AM
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Dan203
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Shows will not actually be deleted unless the space is needed for something else. The date given is simply an expiration date when the show becomes eligible for deletion. I have shows in my Now Playing that have been expired for weeks and have still not been deleted because nothing else has need the space.

Dan

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Spire is offline Old Post 06-27-2001 09:19 PM
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Spire
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Dan, I believe you may have misunderstood the original post. Rephrased slightly:

I'd like to which shows in intends to do delete next in the order it intends to delete them (i.e., when the space is needed for a new recording), and have this information updated after I've deleted other shows. Unreasonable?

I agree that such a feature would be useful. I often would like to know how exactly much time is left until the TiVo starts deleting my "(!)" shows (which I can't just simply extend because I'm out of space).

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BrettStah is offline Old Post 06-27-2001 09:26 PM
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BrettStah
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quote:
Originally posted by Spire:
Dan, I believe you may have misunderstood the original post. Rephrased slightly:

I'd like to which shows in intends to do delete next in the order it intends to delete them (i.e., when the space is needed for a new recording), and have this information updated after I've deleted other shows. Unreasonable?

I agree that such a feature would be useful. I often would like to know how exactly much time is left until the TiVo starts deleting my "(!)" shows (which I can't just simply extend because I'm out of space).




Check out this thread here .
If you don't have time to read the whole thread, basically, on Page 5 I think, I give an example of exactly what you're requesting.

On each expired (!) show, instead of listing that generic line that the show may be deleted, have the Tivo list "This show is scheduled to be deleted Friday at 9:00PM in order to record 'Stargate SG-1'"

It would help out a lot!

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[This message has been edited by BrettStah (edited 06-27-2001).]

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-27-2001 10:40 PM
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Dan203
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quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah:
On each expired (!) show, instead of listing that generic line that the show may be deleted, have the Tivo list "This show is scheduled to be deleted Friday at 9:00PM in order to record 'Stargate SG-1'"


I don't think TiVo has the processing power to keep something like that up to date! If they added a feature like that it would most likely take several minutes, just like exiting the SPM, to update the status of everything in Now Playing every time you added a new recording or SP.

Dan

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BrettStah is offline Old Post 06-28-2001 12:45 AM
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BrettStah
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203:
I don't think TiVo has the processing power to keep something like that up to date! If they added a feature like that it would most likely take several minutes, just like exiting the SPM, to update the status of everything in Now Playing every time you added a new recording or SP.

Dan



You could definitely be correct, but I don't see how it's so complex. It's really just adding and subtracting. No indexing, conflict-checking, etc. Tivo's rebuild the To Do List in the background already, so adding up the amount of space currently used, and the space that is going to be used, and comparing to the capacity of the Tivo doesn't seem tough.

Tivo's already figure out when to delete stuff. I'm just suggesting that it figures it out ahead of time.




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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-28-2001 02:47 AM
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Dan203
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Cool

quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah:
Tivo's already figure out when to delete stuff. I'm just suggesting that it figures it out ahead of time.


Actually it doesn't! It deletes the oldest expired show in Now Playing, when the space is needed. It doesn't know when a specific show is going to get deleted, because there are to many variables that could cause that to change. A last minute extension by the user, a last minute quality change to a show in the To Do list by the user, a last minute addition to the To Do list by a Season Pass, etc..

Believe me if space management was as easy as you make it out to be we'd have that free space indicator that everyone has been asking for by now.

Dan

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BrettStah is offline Old Post 06-28-2001 03:13 AM
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BrettStah
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203:
Actually it doesn't! It deletes the oldest expired show in Now Playing, when the space is needed. It doesn't know when a specific show is going to get deleted, because there are to many variables that could cause that to change. A last minute extension by the user, a last minute quality change to a show in the To Do list by the user, a last minute addition to the To Do list by a Season Pass, etc..

Believe me if space management was as easy as you make it out to be we'd have that free space indicator that everyone has been asking for by now.

Dan



My point is that the Tivo can figure out when space is needed. And, for every variable you listed, the Tivo currently already figures out if it needs to delete the oldest entry, right?

If it can do that, then it must know be able to figure out how much space is free.

It also should know the size of each file (recording) in Now Playing.

It should know how much space each entry in the To Do List will consume (simple formula of record quality and length, right?)

Now, I am saying that computationally, it doesn't appear complex to recalculate things when one or more of the variables change. I could be wrong, but I don't see how this is a taxing thing for even a relatively slow 50MHz processor.



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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-28-2001 05:56 AM
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Dan203
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Cool

The way TiVo works right now is it looks at everything in Now Playing, looks at everything in the To Do list for the next couple of days and then says OK is all this going to fit on here at the same time? If so then it does nothing. If not then it tells you that it will need to expire a few shows early in order to make room for everything scheduled. The ONLY time it has to do this calculation is when a show is added to the To Do list, a Now Playing show has it's expiration date extended or a show in the To Do list has it's quality changed to a higher setting.

In order to do what you want it would have to do a much more complex calculation (i.e it has to both shorten and extend the date, not just shorten it), for every expired show in Now Playing, every time a space related change occured. This means every time a show is watched and deleted, every time a shows expiration date is extended/shortened, every time a SP adds/removes something from the To Do list, every time an auto-record Wish List catches something, every time you cancel a recording mid way through, every time a KAM setting deletes the oldest recording from Now Playing.... you get the point.

Now throw VBR into that mix (that's what the DirecTiVos use) and you've got an incredibly complex piece of code just so you can know exactly when a show is going to be deleted, rather then assuming all expired shows can be deleted at any time.

Dan

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BrettStah is offline Old Post 06-28-2001 08:31 AM
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BrettStah
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Well, when you describe it, it sure sounds complex, but when I think about it, it's just simple addition and subtraction. (You have a point with the VBR on the DirecTivo, though).

If you are correct, then maybe the calculation could be performed only when you go into the details of an expired show, or when you choose some sort of menu option?




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Old Post 06-29-2001 04:29 AM
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BeeJ
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What I mean is instead of just yellow circles in the Now Playing list put a number showing the order the shows clear to be deletable (ie the show that clears next labeled 1). I do like how it only forces you to change the dates on shows older than the one you are changing.

Also I understand Tivo deletes the oldest shows (!) shows first but say it only needs 30 mins and the oldest show is 2 hours, the next oldest 1 hour, next 1/2 hour. Will it see that there is a 1/2 hour show cleared or just automatically delete the 2 hour?

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-29-2001 11:21 PM
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Dan203
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Cool

quote:
Originally posted by BeeJ:
Also I understand Tivo deletes the oldest shows (!) shows first but say it only needs 30 mins and the oldest show is 2 hours, the next oldest 1 hour, next 1/2 hour. Will it see that there is a 1/2 hour show cleared or just automatically delete the 2 hour?


In 1.3 it would delete the oldest show, regardless of how long it was. So that two hour movie would be cleared to make room for that 30 minute sitcom. However in 2.0 shows that are extended, and then expire again, are given the new expiration date rather then the original one, so shows are not always deleted in order. For example say you have two expired shows in Now Playing, and you extend the bottom one for one extra day, even after that show becomes expired again the other one will be deleted first because it's expiration date is older.

BrettStah - I have never actually seen the TiVo code, so it could very well be as simple as you say and may show up in the next release. However based on the current implementation, where shows are expired and deleted only when the space is needed, I seriously doubt the structure is there for such a feature. Now if that assumption is correct then I honestly doubt the engineers would spend any relevant amount of time developing such a small, and relatively unnecessary, feature.

Dan

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jemenake is offline Old Post 07-04-2001 03:18 AM
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jemenake
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203:
The ONLY time it has to do this calculation is when a show is added to the To Do list, a Now Playing show has it's expiration date extended or a show in the To Do list has it's quality changed to a higher setting.



Okay, point taken. However, SP's add stuff to ToDo once a day when new program data comes in... and having the data updated only every 24 hours wouldn't be the end of the world. Sure, there'd be lots of room for improvement, but it would, at least, be something.

I do agree with the others in this thread that it doesn't seem like rocket science. The ToDo list is a known quantity and the Now Playing list is a known quantity. They're both sorted in chronological order of deletion or recording. So, you do this:

1 - Determine free space available

2 - Get next show from ToDo. Subtract the space needed from free-space.

3 - Is the free space less than zero? If so, note the record date of the show from ToDo. Set that as the "expected deletion time" of the oldest eligible show in "Now Playing". Add that show's space to the free-space tabulation.

4 - If free space is still less than zero, do #3 again.

5 - Now, lather, rinse, and repeat a #2.

Now, this should be extremely simple to do for the TiVo. The runtime of the algorithm should vary linearly with the length of ToDo or Now Playing. Also, it only takes one pass through each list. If you have X items in ToDo and Y items in Now Playing, then you'll have X+Y comparison operations and X+Y addition/subtraction operations. When X+Y is on the order of 200 or so, this should happen so fast that, on a modern microprocessor, you'd have more trouble trying to measure the time it too than you'd have actually writing the routine.

Also, let me say that I consider this feature to be very compelling.... as in, it could play a role in helping me decide which unit to buy. Furthermore, I think that, as PVR's become more a part of the mass consciousness, this feature will soon be considered "standard", like VCR-Plus became on VCR's a few years ago. So, does TiVo want to be the first brand that offers it or the last?

- Joe

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jemenake is offline Old Post 07-04-2001 03:21 AM
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jemenake
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quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah:

Check out this thread here .



Or, you can see where I suggested it
two months before .

- Joe

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