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>>> I'm tired of waiting for AAC support. <<<

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mattman is offline Old Post 01-05-2004 10:02 AM
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mattman
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quote:
Originally posted by tboydsto
A bunch of swank people serving tunes to a TiVo with TiVo Desktop using Mac's running iTunes without any hassels. [snip]

I don't believe this is asking too much: TiVo, please support AAC.



I'm not being an apologist for either Apple or TiVo when I say that you CAN do exactly what the advertisement shows. You just can't do it with AAC. I understand the reasons that Apple chose to use AAC, and I understand why it's not a priority for TiVo to adapt to AAC. It's my understanding from those who understand the issue better than I that it would be a non-trivial thing to recode TiVo Desktop to see AAC files, and I would bet that as small a subset of TiVo users that own Macs is, the subset of Mac owners that own TiVo's is even smaller, so it does not make sense for Apple to take this on for themselves.

I understand the frustration people are experiencing, I feel it to some degree myself. I just want it to be clear that it *is* possible to use the TiVo desktop on a Mac, in fact, it's easier than the PC version because of iTunes and iPhoto.

Matt

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tboydsto is offline Old Post 01-05-2004 09:21 PM
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tboydsto
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quote:
Originally posted by mattman
I just want it to be clear that it *is* possible to use the TiVo desktop on a Mac, in fact, it's easier than the PC version because of iTunes and iPhoto.



Agreed, it is technologically possible to accomplish what is in the commercial.

Overall, I agree with everything you say, Matt. Especially your point of how much easier the mac is to setup than the PC for HMO. I just want to make sure that TiVo is not provided an "easy out" by telling people that they can only use HMO with macs by converting their entire music library to another format, because converting and manging multiple libraries of music is not fun nor trivial.

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kupe is offline Old Post 01-05-2004 10:54 PM
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kupe
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quote:
Originally posted by mattman
I understand why it's not a priority for TiVo to adapt to AAC...I would bet that as small a subset of TiVo users that own Macs is, the subset of Mac owners that own TiVo's is even smaller


This isn't a Mac issue. Windows iTunes users need AAC support for their Tivos too. The iTunes music store is THE most popular and highly trafficed music download site in the country- both for Mac AND Windows.

kupe

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mattman is offline Old Post 01-05-2004 11:16 PM
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mattman
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quote:
Originally posted by kupe
This isn't a Mac issue.


True. I tend to be a bit myopic where computer platforms are concerned. I know that iTunes users on both platforms are troubled by this, as well as those who use Ogg Vorbis encoding.

Matt

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dricci is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:09 AM
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dricci
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I got tired of waiting for HMO to support AAC as well, so I made a custom cable, one end with left and right audio jacks for my DVD/Receiver's Auxiliary input, and the other a headphone jack for the back of my computer. It works pretty good, although it'd be nice to have TiVo's onscreen guide controlling it, but I suppose I can substitute that for a USB/IR remote that can control iTunes. TiVo could have had my $99, and I was pretty sure they were going to get it because of their promise to support AAC months ago, but now they won't be seeing it any time soon, plus their lie has caused me to lose respect for them as a company.

As for photos, I'm contemplating buying a really long S-Video cable to use from my computer to my TV, and then just using iPhoto's full screen slideshow option.

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jwedding is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 08:19 PM
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jwedding
Support AAC Now!

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Um, you do know that Radio Shack tells that cable for like 3.99, right?

In either case, the point of HMO was to NOT have to do such shenanigans, and to keep the computer (no matter the brand,) in another room. With the success of iTMS, AAC usage grows. Tivo is ignoring a huge opportunity, and a growing demand, from their own leading edge customers.

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kupe is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 01:17 AM
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kupe
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Come on Tivo!! Another big player announces an online Music store using AAC. Check out this announcement from Real Networks:

http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5135382.html

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jwedding is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 02:35 AM
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jwedding
Support AAC Now!

Registered: Sep 2003
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Posts: 76

Gee, and with iPod minis coming out this month, how many more people will be using the iTunes integration and expect AAC support...

Edit:
Well, it appears that elgato managed to support AAC files with their EyeHome, just not the iTMS ones. At $249 list, it's not the cheapest solution out there, but it's a start.

http://www.elgato.com/products/eyehome.html

How about just supporting unencrypted AAC, Tivo?

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Last edited by jwedding on 01-07-2004 at 03:15 AM

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kupe is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 05:08 AM
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kupe
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quote:
Originally posted by jwedding

Well, it appears that elgato managed to support AAC files with their EyeHome, just not the iTMS ones. At $249 list, it's not the cheapest solution out there, but it's a start.



A start? Wow- that thing looks great! It's like HMO on steroids! Appears to support all media in your Movies folder, all Pictures in your pictures folder (including music with slideshows), and all Music in your Music folder- including AACs! And on top of that displays the internet on your TV including all your Safari bookmarks! Holy smokes- this is the HMO I need!

I wonder if Elgato got an exclusive agreement with Apple on this? If so, that might explain what happened to the long-ago rumored Tivo support for AAC.

It looks very interesting.

kupe

PS- As an update to my post, the Elgato site points out that while it supports AAC, it does NOT support iTunes Music Store encrypted AACs. Alas, it seemed SO good.

Last edited by kupe on 01-07-2004 at 05:20 AM

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Xcelsior is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 07:46 AM
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Xcelsior
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quote:
Originally posted by kupe
Come on Tivo!! Another big player announces an online Music store using AAC. Check out this announcement from Real Networks:

http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5135382.html



And Real figured out how to play protected AAC files - why can't TiVo? And truly, how hard can it be to borrow the Real implementation? They merely pass the DRM authorization to iTunes and the actual playing of the file is handled by Quicktime. Couldn't they do that?

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travishill is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 08:06 AM
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travishill
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quote:
Originally posted by Xcelsior
And Real figured out how to play protected AAC files - why can't TiVo? And truly, how hard can it be to borrow the Real implementation? They merely pass the DRM authorization to iTunes and the actual playing of the file is handled by Quicktime. Couldn't they do that?


There's no QuickTime on a TiVo. Real just plays the iTunes protected AAC files on the Windows PC itself- not anywhere else. They haven't done anything special, since iTunes must be fully installed and configured with an Apple ID for that support to work- they just call out to the QuickTime subsystem to play it...

Anyone playing a protected AAC file where iTunes already must be installed is no big deal. Playing them on another device (like a TiVo) will be very good, and of course slightly more difficult.

Now why an enterprising programmer doesn't just write an HMO app that transcodes AAC -> MP3 using QuickTime on an authorized computer for a temporary workaround right now is beyond me...

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Dan Clarke is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 10:09 AM
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Dan Clarke
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This is where the whole DRM thing gets murky. As I recall when I set up Itunes on my home network, each PC that had itunes installed had to be 'activated' to play my downloaded .M4P Itunes music, even if it was actually on PC #1 and streamed through Itunes to PC#2, even though that really doesn't make sense.

Using that methodology, every tivo would count as a 'authroized' pc and you'd go through your '3 pc' allowance pretty quick.

My biggest gripe isn't the fact that AAC isn't supported on Tivo, but more that I can't convert the damn Itunes songs from AAC to MP3 unless I rip as an 'audio CD' first. A HUGE pain in the butt.

Unless anyone here on the forum (sorry I know not tivo related) has a PC version that can do that for me....

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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 12:03 PM
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Dennis Wilkinson
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Clarke
This is where the whole DRM thing gets murky. As I recall when I set up Itunes on my home network, each PC that had itunes installed had to be 'activated' to play my downloaded .M4P Itunes music, even if it was actually on PC #1 and streamed through Itunes to PC#2, even though that really doesn't make sense.

Using that methodology, every tivo would count as a 'authroized' pc and you'd go through your '3 pc' allowance pretty quick.



Unless they treat the TiVo like an iPod (heck, the TiVo doesn't even *store* the music) in which case it doesn't count againt your PC/Mac quota. As long as the machine containing the music is authorized, it can download to as many iPods as you want.

I agree that the streaming thing for PCs doesn't really make much sense, though. The concern is probably that the stream being played could be written to disk in its uncompressed form (not that hard to do if you're, oh, let's say, a sound driver), and they only allow "authorized" machines to do that (like CD burning.) All speculation, of course.

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TiVoJay is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 12:15 PM
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TiVoJay
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Angry links of interest

Some links of interest:

Apple and HP working on an HP branded player:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jan/08hp.html

quote:
Working to provide consumers with the most compelling digital content whenever and wherever they desire, HP and Apple® today announced a strategic alliance to deliver an HP-branded digital music player based on Apple’s iPod™, the number one digital music player in the world, and Apple’s award-winning iTunes digital music jukebox and pioneering online music store to HP's customers.

From the same press release:
quote:
All iPods work seamlessly with the award-winning iTunes digital music jukebox software and the iTunes Music Store, which has sold more than 30 million songs, providing music fans with the best digital music experience on either a Mac® or Windows PC.

That's 30 million songs on Macs and Windows PCs that can't be played via HMO.

Meanwhile, here's TiVo's latest HMO press release:

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=194
quote:
XM Satellite, Adobe, Picasa, Moodlogic Bring New Digital Music, Photo Services to TiVo ® Via Home Media Option

Given this with no mention of a partnership with Apple, it's safe to assume AAC support isn't coming any time soon.

Here's what the TiVo Desktop software download page says currently:

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.4.1.asp
quote:
Please note: Does not support AAC audio files

Back in August 2003, here's what it used to say:
quote:
Please note: Does not currently support AAC audio files

See reference at: http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2003/08/tivo_home_media.html


On the TiVo Support page for Mac Music Troubleshooting Tips, it currently says:

http://customersupport.tivo.com/tiv...blic/tv1161.htm
quote:
We are working on supporting the AAC music format, but do not have a current definitive timeline of when it will be available for our TiVo Series2 subscribers.

TiVo people, if you're reading this, you might want to update this support page so you don't piss off any more Mac users with misleading statements like this.


My suggestion for all you Mac users out there is to send Apple your feedback about TiVo support for iTunes Music Store. Let them know that lack of TiVo HMO support is an inhibitor to buying music from the store: http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html

Last edited by TiVoJay on 01-09-2004 at 12:46 PM

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morac is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 12:38 PM
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morac
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This story may be of some interest.

Apparently DVD-Jon has cracked the iTunes DRM scheme and built a plugin that allows them to be played on Linux. He released the source code. I don't think it would be that hard to implement a plugin to TiVo Desktop based on this.

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TiVoJay is offline Old Post 01-09-2004 10:55 PM
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TiVoJay
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Actually, thinking about this makes me wonder if Apple is working on their own solution, and they are the ones who aren't interested in working with Tivo. Home Media certainly fits in with their iLife suite and product line strategy.

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Austin Bike is offline Old Post 01-11-2004 05:33 AM
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OK, time to take off the rose-colored glasses. Although you make some valid points on AAC support, here's the reality:

1. Apple is 2-4% of the total PC population
2. iTunes on Windows is a very small population, probably less than 5%
3. Of the people who own Macs and use iTunes, the majority of their music is not DRM encrypted, so it could be MP3 as easily as AAC.
4. Of the 2-4% of the total PC population that have AAC files on their system, very few have TiVo and even fewer have HMO.
5. If you really wanted to, you could convert AAC files over to MP3, except for the encrypted ones (which is probably a small # of files per user.)

The gist of this issue is that while this appears to be a great big issue that runs your life, the reality is that 99.8% or more of the population does not have an AAC issue because they are not using it.

TiVo is going to go where the market is. You can either join the market and go MP3, or hold on to AAC and complain about the lack of support. I'll give you the fact that AAC could be a better format (MP3 is the lowest common denominator), but it's never a battle about superior technology, it's ALWAYS about the market.

Beta kicked VHS's ass. Where can you play your beta tapes today? 20 years later you can still buy VHS VCRs.

All the music I buy is in WMA format. I immediately burn a disc and then rip to MP3. I lose some quality but I gain maximum flexibility - I can play it anywhere at any time. I never share, just personal use. I just don't like someone else controlling when/where I can hear what I paid for.

What if the DRM system goes amuck and you can't listen to your music???

I have over 10,000 songs in my collection, all in MP3. It's not necessarily the highest fidelity that every expert would rave about, but I can listen to them all day long on my TiVo.

Sometimes its best to know when to fight and when to give in. If you look at all the press releases, these are other companies doing plug ins for TiVo. If you want AAC support, get on Apple, they have far more at stake than Tivo. For TiVo, it's probably less than 1% of their population.

If you think 30M downloads is a lot, just remember that in the file swapping world, that's about a week or less of Kazaa. The 30M AAC downloads are probably a rounding error of the total electronic music population.

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TiVoJay is offline Old Post 01-11-2004 09:07 AM
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TiVoJay
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quote:
2. iTunes on Windows is a very small population, probably less than 5%

Back up your figure, Mr. Cynic.


Apple hits 25 million iTunes downloads
December 15, 2003
http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5124550.html

quote:
Apple Computer has nearly doubled sales of digital music through its iTunes music store since launching a Windows-compatible version of its iTunes software in October, the company said.

...

iTunes customers download an average of 1.5 million songs from the service per week, said Apple Vice President of Application Marketing Rob Schoeben. Apple expects that customers will download 100 million songs by the first anniversary of iTunes' launch next April.

Apple executives are "blown away" at the rate at which people are purchasing songs at the company's store, Schoeben said. "You normally have a launch spike, and then you see it taper off," Schoeben said. "We're not seeing that. We're adding more and more accounts. We're not seeing people trying it and then going away. What we see in the numbers is that they're getting hooked."

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Austin Bike is offline Old Post 01-11-2004 10:46 AM
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Austin Bike
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So I tunes has 30M downloads.

Let's do some quick math. I am going to guess that the average user has 10 songs on their computer. Does that sound fair? 1 album per user?

That means with 30M downloads, that is 3M discrete users, right? If you say 10 is too little then you only hurt your logic, so stay with me.

Press release says that Apple doubled downloads since launching the Windows version. So, from that assumption, you can extend the logic to say 1.5M of the 3M users are on Windows (probably a safe assumption that although apple is 2-4% of the market, they are 50% of the iTunes users...)

So ~1.5M of the total PC population is on iTunes.

If you look at Apple's IDC numbers ( http://www.thinksecret.com/news/appleq2idc.html )

you see that about 10-11M desktops per quarter and ~3M laptops per quarter are sold in the US. That means, conservatively, about 50M client systems per year are sold.

If you make the bold assumption that computers have only been sold for the past year and never before that, you have your 1.5M Windows iTunes representing ~3% of the total PC market, which is less than my estimate (I was too lazy to do the actual math at that time.)

Then, when you consider that there actually IS an install base of Windows PCs and that the average lifespan of a PC is ~3 years (the bulk going to corporate/public entities in the US), you actually end up with a number closer to 1% or less of the total US install base.

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kupe is offline Old Post 01-11-2004 12:50 PM
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kupe
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quote:
Originally posted by Austin Bike
TiVo is going to go where the market is. You can either join the market and go MP3, or hold on to AAC and complain about the lack of support.


You have so many of your facts wrong that I didn't know where to begin. But the above is as good as any.

The fact is that 70% of all legally downloaded songs in 2003 came from the iTunes Music Store. And that has nothing to do with Apple or Macs. It's just a fact. If Tivo is "going to go where the market is", then you and I are in complete agreement. They MUST follow the market and implement AAC support now.

Moreover, no company that plans on lasting in the highly litigious business of digital music is going to ignore DRM protected music. Your beloved MP3 is largely the province of pirates, and the farther Tivo can stay from it, the better.

Kupe

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>>> I'm tired of waiting for AAC support. <<<

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