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>>> More NBC shows to start a minute early (causing more conflicts!) <<<

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allan is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 02:09 AM
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allan
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quote:
Originally posted by devdogaz
Well, maybe you haven't been following TV news this season. NBC's viewership is down across the board and some of their highest-rated shows have shown dramatic dips. TV is a fluid meduim that requires constant work by talented producers, writers, directors, actors and executives to maintain quality. Shows do not simply "stay good" if they aren't messed with. Not messing with a show would mean not producing any more episodes. How does that cause it to "stay good?"


1. If NBC's viewership is down, maybe they need some decent shows instead of just mucking with start/end times.

2. I agree that it requires effort to keep TV "good". So, when will they start putting in any such effort?

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devdogaz is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 02:19 AM
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devdogaz
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Hey, I'm not defending NBC's quality. Their shows have fallen off in quality and I wish they would put forth more efforts to improve their schedule. I'm not making any kind of a judgement call as to NBC's quality. I'm only saying that their scheduling moves are a marketing tactic to gain more viewers and simply reporting facts that the ratings are down.

FWIW, I stopped watching ER two seasons ago because I just couldn't stand it anymore. I also don't watch Will & Grace, Fraiser or Law & Order anymore. I've never watched any of the other L&O series. I still love The West Wing but will be the first to admit that its quality has gone way downhill. I'm not a shill for NBC. I'm just stating things as I see them.

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Last edited by devdogaz on 01-06-2004 at 02:24 AM

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allan is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 02:26 AM
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allan
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quote:
Originally posted by devdogaz
Hey, I'm not defending NBC's quality. Their shows have fallen off in quality and I wish they would put forth more efforts to improve their schedule. I'm not making any kind of a judgement call as to NBC's quality. I'm only saying that their scheduling moves are a marketing tactic to gain more viewers and simply reporting facts that the ratings are down.


I'm sure that IS their idea. But I think it will get them LESS viewers, not more. For me, it makes little difference; I don't have a single NBC SP anyway! Juggling times will have NO effect on me.

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Dan Clarke is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 06:47 AM
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Dan Clarke
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I wrote about this a few months back, as even HBO got into the game of running over.

This has absolutely nothing to do with ad sales and everything to do with ratings, IMHO. Nielsen charts by 1/2 hours as far as I know, so if a show ends at 9:32 that show's rating is included in the 9:30 rating.

The best example (non-annoying by executives) is NFL Sunday afternoon games that start at 4:15PM Eastern. Those games often don't end until 7:30 or 8:00 PM. If you look at the Nielsen ratings you'll often see (NFL on CBS: Crappy 4PM game overrun) at the top. Same rules apply.

Network execs also think that if a show goes until 9:32, you'll give up on the 9:30 show on another network. Keep in mind these are the same idiots that cancel Boomtown but keep 23 reality shows on and wonder where the viewers go.

I was pretty upset that HBO did this, especially since I PAY for this service. I emailed them. Thread is here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=121077

At the time I was more pissed that HBO wasn't putting the right times in the program guide (ie Sex &TC was ending at 9:32 but the show in the guide showed 9:30). At least NBC is putting the right start/end times on the program guide.

That being said, it's a very similar ploy that Ted Turner used with WTBS. As said before back in the 80s, all WTBS shows started at :05 and :35 -- but it was not done on purpose to ruin other program watching -- it was done because back then in the days when you actually had to READ TV Guide he got free advertising. I mean at 8:00 PM there were 12 paragraphs of shows and they were done in channel order, meaning if you weren't channel 2, you would be buried. By starting shows at 8:05, you have a line item all to yourself.

Anyway I digress. The time runoff is annoying, doesn't add anything to the actual show itself (save for the 'supersize shows'), and in my opinion makes me want to watch that channel less.

If I have a SP pass conflict becuase of one of these shows, I make it a point to just turn off the idiotic show. Tivo aggregates this information and since NBC is a partner, I hope TiVo can go to NBC and say "whoa, we had 200,000 people cancel their season pass when there was a conflict with 24" or something .

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smak is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:00 AM
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smak
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Clarke
I wrote about this a few months back, as even HBO got into the game of running over.

This has absolutely nothing to do with ad sales and everything to do with ratings, IMHO. Nielsen charts by 1/2 hours as far as I know, so if a show ends at 9:32 that show's rating is included in the 9:30 rating.



Yah, but what are ratings for. To get bigger ad sales, so it all comes around in the end.

I think the reason that Friends gets it's 2 minutes at the end, and ER at the beginning, is that they can't do the opposite because it will interfere with local time, and the locals wouldn't have it.

That's why Friends can't start at 7:58 and ER can't end at 11:02.

I believe it is more than likely due to ad sales, because just look at the shows that get the extra time. It isn't Friends running 28 minutes and Whoopi 32.

-smak-

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hdfxrs is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:08 AM
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hdfxrs
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NBC timing

What can we do about NBC starting/ending their programs at odd times short of a boycott?

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daveyg013 is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:10 AM
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daveyg013
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You brought up some very interesting points, but this quote from you makes little sense...

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Clarke
This has absolutely nothing to do with ad sales and everything to do with ratings, IMHO.


Ad sales are based entirely around ratings, so if they are trying to increase ratings, they are trying to boost ad sales. We advertisers pay by the rating point.

If you are talking about the number of ads sold, then you are still incorrect. When I buy a spot in ER, I'm guaranteed that it will run from 10:00-11:00. If they can move part of the show to 9:58 so that two more minutes of ad space is available during that time period, they can sell more time during that program. Since the stations only have a limited amount of space to sell, time is the most precious commodity in TV advertising. If I want an ad during ER and not the program before it, and ER is completely sold out, why wouldn't the network bump one minute of the show into the previous hour in order make room for my ad?

Personally, I would like the FCC to do what they've done for children's programming: limit the amount of commercials. I believe the law says there can only be 12 minutes of ads per 1/2 hour during a children's show (there may be some other variations depending on day of the week). Sounds good to me.

This statement is somewhat true however...

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Clarke
Nielsen charts by 1/2 hours as far as I know, so if a show ends at 9:32 that show's rating is included in the 9:30 rating.


Neilsen doesn't care what program is showing, they are only tracking the viewers during a time period. If the last two minutes of Friends runs after 8:30, it's ratings will actually be counted toward the 8:30 program. This is where the stations actually are decieving advertisers by artificially enhancing ratings by taking advantage of Neilsen's limitations.

Last edited by daveyg013 on 01-06-2004 at 07:19 AM

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xix_84 is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by daveyg013
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Hmmm...... isn't Taco Bell HQ'ed in Orange County

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daveyg013 is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by xix_84
Hmmm...... isn't Taco Bell HQ'ed in Orange County



Uh oh! I think someone has figured out my secret identity! Yes, it's true, I can't believe I'm admitting this, but yo quiero Taco Bell

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sinistan is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 10:12 AM
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sinistan
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I still don't see the big deal here. Okay, I understand the season pass thingy goes out and is supposed to schedule all the shows you want so it will always record. I assume that means you won't have to manually set recording for it. I'm using the SA tivo without a subscription, and I can just manually record and there is an option to start so minutes early and end so many minutes late. It doesn't default to this (rounds to 30 minutes I believe), but you can change it.
Now, if you really care about a show that much, you've already probably watched it more than once and know when it's currently being broadcast (short of a network scheduling change). Can't you just set up a manually repeating recording for that particular show (e.g. 'ER' or friends, whatever) with the option to start 1 minute early and stop on time? Even for a few shows, is that really a big to take the extra time to set it up like that?
If that still doesn't work (scheduling conflict or whatever with other programs set up with other manual recordings or season pass, etc.), can't you still just set it manually as a repeating (e.g. friends on thursday), and set it for 8:00pm exactly. You'll miss 1 whole minute of the show, but is that really a big deal? Usually there's little that happens (show opening credits, etc.) and then goes to commercials.

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rasheed is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 11:04 AM
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rasheed
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Angry Really mad!

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Clarke
This has absolutely nothing to do with ad sales and everything to do with ratings, IMHO. Nielsen charts by 1/2 hours as far as I know, so if a show ends at 9:32 that show's rating is included in the 9:30 rating.


To clarify, Nielsen's time measuring equipment is very precise, and it looks at the schedule too. Shows that run overtime are included in the normal time slot as you indicated, but what is important is that you are *not* watching another channel at that time and counting toward the other channel's ratings.

Beyond doing manual slot records of NBC programs, we currently do not have another solution for allowing your non-NBC passes work alongside primetime NBC.

quote:
Originally posted by rasheed
Now, I will be floored if these shows don't start at the exact time :59, :10, :0 whatever as they have listed (and then it becomes even more confusion why they are reporting shows at these intervals).


Guess what? Las Vegas scheduled for 8:59pm. What time did the episode start in my market (after the Couples Fear Factor preview, the Fear Factor credits, the ER promo, the Apprentice promo, and an extra tease for the episode of Las Vegas about to start)? After 9:00pm (comfortably after the :01 on the green bar). Mad. NBC is just lying at this point. Manipulation at its finest.

Rasheed

Last edited by rasheed on 01-06-2004 at 11:41 AM

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cptodd is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 01:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by xix_84
Hmmm...... isn't Taco Bell HQ'ed in Orange County


I wanted to say that too but I thought I shouldn't (didn't want to bust you). The only reason I know this is because a friend of mine is a Prof in the History dept at UCI and she is always commenting on her student's being trained to work at Taco Bell.

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Peter000 is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 02:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by daveyg013
Uh oh! I think someone has figured out my secret identity! Yes, it's true, I can't believe I'm admitting this, but yo quiero Taco Bell
mmmm... Taco Bell. A long time ago I videotaped a focus group for Taco Bell here in the Twin Cities. One of the best focus groups I ever did... I got to try out prototypes of TB foods. I can't get detailed about it, 'cause of confidentiality issues. But the food was great!

Anyway, the reasons NBC is doing this don't matter... that's why I don't care to even try to fathom why they're scheduling things like they are. All that really matters is that it's affecting TiVo owners (and I'm assuming owners of other PVRs too) in a bad way.

The only way I can figure out how to deal with it effectively is to prioritize the shows I watch. And rarely does NBC rate a high priority.

There are other networks with far worse problems than NBC, too. At least NBC schedules and runs its programs exactly to the schedule (for the most part). Nicktoons is HORRIBLE about sticking to published start times. For example, I just added a Pinky and the Brain SP. Those shows regularly start anywhere between 1-3 minutes early. Invader Zim is all over the place. Cartoon Network is a little better, but the afternoon showings of Justice League always started early, and it seemed if I moved the SP a minute earlier, they'd decide to move the program start time up still more (they've since moved them to the evening). I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to record a premium movie and it's cut off before ending.

And this why we need soft padding, as many before me have suggested. This is just making it a whole lot more obvious. Hopefully some TiVo excutives are having the same issues we are.

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tompro is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 06:14 PM
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OK,
So how can we get tivo to add a simple code to allow us to start recording one minute later, or end recording one minute earlier? Until they do this, I will just stop recording NBC shows, when they conflict with something else there is nothing on NBC that important.

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porkenstein is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 06:16 PM
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On programs like ER I just do manual recording and set it to start at 9 instead of 8:58. It's a little hastle but us TV addicts have to get all our programs. The only problem is you have to be real carefull to check programs everyday instead of it being automatic to make sure they haven't stuck another one in early.

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pyrite504 is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 07:11 PM
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Re: Really mad!

My wife and I went out yesterday, so we couldn't fix the scheduling conflict and I missed Las Vegas because of it.

I am pretty upset, as I really like Las Vegas. I am going to be giving my local NBC affiliate here in Chicago to voice my displeasure, and inform them that they've lost a viewer during that time period, as all my NBC season passes just got bumped to a lower priority.

quote:
Originally posted by rasheed


Guess what? Las Vegas scheduled for 8:59pm. What time did the episode start in my market (after the Couples Fear Factor preview, the Fear Factor credits, the ER promo, the Apprentice promo, and an extra tease for the episode of Las Vegas about to start)? After 9:00pm (comfortably after the :01 on the green bar). Mad. NBC is just lying at this point. Manipulation at its finest.

Rasheed

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jrappaport is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 10:35 PM
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Howdy gang. My brother works for an ABC affiliate in Tampa as a producer for the news. Here is what he had to say:

They're basically "jumping" the Nielsen meters. By starting programming early, they're trying to prevent channel surfing at the beginning of the hour. And they're also ending primetime a few minutes early, giving local stations the same opportunity to "jump" the meters early with their local news. I wish ABC did it.

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kirbylile is offline Old Post 01-06-2004 10:39 PM
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Well I think it's a plain stupid idea. Period.

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Peter000 is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 01:37 AM
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Peter000
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quote:
Originally posted by jrappaport
They're basically "jumping" the Nielsen meters. By starting programming early, they're trying to prevent channel surfing at the beginning of the hour. And they're also ending primetime a few minutes early, giving local stations the same opportunity to "jump" the meters early with their local news.
Well, if everybody did it, and made sure the program data reflected that, it would be less of a problem. But then, the Nielsen's would probably try to change their data reporting methods to reflect this, and we'd go through the whole thing again, except 2 minutes early instead of 1.

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HTH is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 02:31 AM
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Nielsen diary books have grid lines every 15 minutes, but they want you to cite what you watch if you watch it for at least 5 minutes. How to fit three different shows on the same grid line is left an exercise for the user.

I came up with my own solution for the exercise: instead of putting an X in the column under my name to indicate I started watching then, I put the actual minutes on the clock. Thus extra shows go on the next line with the actual minutes, which might not be within the 15 minutes of the grid line, but satisfies their reporting rules, and easily understood. (Hopefully the idea to cite the minutes of the hour instead of an X will be incorporated into the next set of Nielsen diaries.)

BTW, local news on one ABC and one CBS station here always run long, screwing up post-late-news recordings.

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