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>>> More NBC shows to start a minute early (causing more conflicts!) <<<

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Wayne Bundrick is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 02:41 AM
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Wayne Bundrick
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quote:
Well, if everybody did it, and made sure the program data reflected that, it would be less of a problem.


If everybody started their shows at random times, it would be total chaos.

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Peter000 is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 04:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayne Bundrick
If everybody started their shows at random times, it would be total chaos.
I meant if everyone started doing that nearly the same way. I doubt everyone would just start airing their shows at random times. Though if that happens, and the guide data is accurate, I'm sure everyone will find a way of dealing with it.

a 10 tuner TiVo anyone?

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HTH is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 06:21 AM
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You know, the soft padding issue could be implemented with a single preference for the Season Pass:

Allow partial recordings: [ Never ] ( Always )

"Never" being the default for pre-existing SPs/ARWLs/MSPs before the software upgrade that adds this, possibly more. Season Pass Manager determines which conflicting show is partialized. Maybe options of percentage thresholds between Never and Always (maybe 95%, 90%, 80%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 20%, 10%, and 5%), indicating how much you want to ensure is recorded, though maybe hold that back until users are comfortable with Never/Always, then add it to the next revision.

They say necessity is the mother of invention. I've never had as clear of an implementation idea as this for this long-wanted feature.

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ramey2020 is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 06:29 AM
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Thumbs down

This wouldn't be a problem if TIVO would implement a solution to its deconfliction problem -- that being that any overlap causes one of the programs to not be recorded. Negative padding is one option. Giving the option to pad a manual recording by more than 2 minutes is another. How about implementing a way to record both with a higher priority scheme to determine which program is recorded during the overlap. This problem is TIVO's #1 short coming.

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bkeyport is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 06:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by daveyg013
Neilsen doesn't care what program is showing, they are only tracking the viewers during a time period. If the last two minutes of Friends runs after 8:30, it's ratings will actually be counted toward the 8:30 program. This is where the stations actually are decieving advertisers by artificially enhancing ratings by taking advantage of Neilsen's limitations.


Funny, how come shows like WWE Raw can get neilsen data down to the minute, and in fact, do - when they do their 5-13 minute overrun, they get viewership data for that segment seperate from the rest - and neilsen shows the dramatic drop in SPIKE viewership when RAW ends and MXC or Slamball starts.

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Crrink is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 07:03 AM
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It's been said that TiVo doesn't allow manual recordings to begin/end in less than 5 minute chunks. If this is the case (I haven't checked), that's completely lame, and they should update that ASAP.

I guess that negative padding must be more difficult to do than I'd think since neither TiVo nor Replay offer it.

HTH - your idea for partial recordings is a good one, but I'd like to at least see options for 'Always', 'Never', and 'More than 50%' because if you record a half hour show like Friends, but you also have CSI in your SP Manager, you'd have to delete 30 minutes of CSI every week.

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smak is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 07:24 AM
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This finally bit me last night, i didn't miss anything, but i had to re-arrange around 5 shows to different tivo's to still get everything...

If I had 1 tivo, i don't know what i'd do, I hate setting up manual recordings.

Freakin' The Apprentice pilot goes from like 8:32 to 9:59 or some utter nonsense like that. Not to mention the fact the show is on Thursday, Saturday and then Wednesday to help screw up a bunch of other SP's.

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 07:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
I guess that negative padding must be more difficult to do than I'd think since neither TiVo nor Replay offer it.


Actually it's not. In fact there is a simple script you can run on a hacked TiVo to add negative padding options right to the TiVo interface.

The reason TiVo hasn't added it yet themselves is most likely because they felt that it was too confusing and, as of the last major update, mostly unnecessary. Now that people are having real problems that could be fixed by the addition of negative padding I'd be surprised if TiVo didn't add it to their next major release.

Dan

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ccwf is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 07:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
Actually it's not. In fact there is a simple script you can run on a hacked TiVo to add negative padding options right to the TiVo interface.
And one can also have non-minute increment padding options. Here are some examples from mrtickle, along with a link to the thread with embeem's canned script. (Also, as pointed out there, negative numbers for padding don't work reliably before 3.x, which includes the UK TiVos.)

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rodneyremington is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 08:34 AM
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rodneyremington
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Frasier tonight on NBC finishes at 9:31! It canceled out another seasons pass recording set to go from 930-1000. NBC, are you listening??

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mattack is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 08:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sinistan
I still don't see the big deal here. Okay, I understand the season pass thingy goes out and is supposed to schedule all the shows you want so it will always record. I assume that means you won't have to manually set recording for it. I'm using the SA tivo without a subscription, and I can just manually record and there is an option to start so minutes early and end so many minutes late. It doesn't default to this (rounds to 30 minutes I believe), but you can change it.


But in the most commonly used example, you cannot set a manual recording to always get all of CSI, because you can only make a manual recording end at 9:57 (er starts at 9:59).

(I'm referring to "all" meaning the guts of the show, minus the end credits if they do not contain a 'gag' like the end of Frasier or Friends.)

I'm one of the people who has applauded NBC's "accurate" timing on er this year.. Though _once_ this year a non-start-padded er recording did indeed cut off some of the beginning (and I _don't_ mean the "previously on er" part). Still it's far better than usual when we had to pad religiously.. Though because of this one slip I'll probably add an automatic start pad back in.

However, Monday's NBC time gimmicks were useless. Las Vegas's early start time simply caught the end of Fear Factor's credits, and Average Joe's early start time simply caught Las Vegas' credits. i.e. neither show _actually_ started early. Now *that's* lame.

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sinistan is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 10:26 AM
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sinistan
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Okay, so if this CSI is the show that ends at 9:57pm, then it probably starts at what, around 9:00pm? Then just manually record the ER for 10:00pm to 11:00pm and miss a whole entire minute of that show, thus removing the conflict for the CSI show. Also I know on the model I have (perhaps all), you can increment the start/end times in chunks of like 5 minutes, so you can program for 10:00pm to 10:55pm, and then have it start 1 minute early (9:59pm), and stop either 1, 2 or 5 minutes later. Then you could have it record exactly 9:59pm to 10:57pm (or whatever the time is you wanted--8:59pm to 9:57pm for your CSI example I suppose).
Then just prioritize the shows you want to really watch 'ALL' of if there's still a conflict after that for some reason.

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rasheed is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 12:14 PM
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I would not prefer a solution that is SP specific (such as negative padding). Rather, I would prefer something that is applied to the "SPM" or "To Do" as a whole (Partial or +/- allowed).

A solution that is SP-specific would have to be changed every time the length of the show is changed (from my point of view).

Rasheed

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Herrcut is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 08:42 PM
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NBC odd start time work-around

I am new to this formum so it this has already been posted, I apologize in advance.

I have created manual season passes for Law & Order, Las Vegas and ER that follow in priority immediatedly behind my regular seaon pass for the same program.

Thus, for example, when my Law&Order season pass schedules an episode to start at 9:59,the first minute conflicts with a higher priority season pass for OC and therefore the L&O episode does not record.

However, my manual season pass for the time slot goes from 10:00 to 11:00 and has no higher priority season passes and therefore it records the episode of Law&Order without the first minute.

If OC is a repeat, my regular Law & Order season pass records the episode from 9:59 to 11:00 and because it is a higher priority than the manual season pass it supercedes it.

Now, I really don't care about the first minute but I have set up my VCR to record that first minute.

Where NBC really got nasty was with Las Vegas. They started an episode 10 minutes late. This means that my regular season pass did not record because that last ten minutes conflicted with CSI Miami which I have at a higher priority. However, the manual seaon pass did record and incredibly TIVO is smart enough to realize what I am doing and scheduled the recording to start at 9:10 and end at 10:00. Then I set up my VCR to pick up the last ten minutes on tape.

My setup uses a splitter with TIVO off one path and the VCR off the other path so it is easy to change inputs to the TV and thereby get the missing minutes that I recorded on my VCR.

I would like the folks at TIVO to allow recordings to begin a minute late in order to avoid the conflict but until they do I find that my work around does what I want.

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HTH is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 08:51 PM
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HTH
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quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
It's been said that TiVo doesn't allow manual recordings to begin/end in less than 5 minute chunks. If this is the case (I haven't checked), that's completely lame, and they should update that ASAP.
The default times for manual recordings are at 5 minute increments, but they have all the same padding options as other recordings.

"Allow partial recordings" come to think of it is a bit misleading as partials could arise in other wasy (loss of signal). Better would be "Allow conflicts to record".

The only issue I can see is what to do when two shows that allow themselves to be cut down are in conflict. Does the higher priority one record in full or do they average out the conflict between them (one minute overlap drops 30 seconds from each).

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devdogaz is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 10:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mattack
However, Monday's NBC time gimmicks were useless. Las Vegas's early start time simply caught the end of Fear Factor's credits, and Average Joe's early start time simply caught Las Vegas' credits. i.e. neither show _actually_ started early. Now *that's* lame.

Actually, my recording of Las Vegas that went from 7:59 to 8:59 caught the first 30 seconds of Average Joe. I thought that was kind of odd since AJ was supposed to start "early" at 8:59 and they even jumped the gun on that.

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mmascari is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 11:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rodneyremington
Frasier tonight on NBC finishes at 9:31! It canceled out another seasons pass recording set to go from 930-1000. NBC, are you listening??


They're listening fine, just not the way you want them to .

From NBC's point of view, they got to include an extra commercial spot for you and stopped you from switching to another network at 9:30. If your 9:30 recording was on NBC, it was scheduled to start at 9:31, and would have worked just fine. As far as NBC was concerned, it was a total success.

What this means to us, is that we have to rank shows based on how much we really want them overall, not just based on the time slot. Lets say show X is on from 9:30 to 10:00, and Frasier is on from 9:00 to 9:31. They need to be ranked correctly in the season pass manager. If show X is more important than Frasier, rank it first, show X records Frasier doesn't. If Frasier is more important thant show X, rank it first, Frasier records show X doesn't. If this was all of the season passes scheduled, they might as well both be on from 9:00 to 10:00 since you can't record all of both shows anyway. Shows should be ranked this way anyway, since a show can switch nights or times permanently. If they were on different nights, both at 9:00, and show X permanently moved to the exact same time slot as Frasier, correctly ranking them would get the most desired show. Before the schedule change, it wouldn't have mattered.

Based on the number of complaints before padding was added, by people who don't know how to use padding, and a very conservative view about watching TV, people get very upset when they miss the beginning or end of a show. This makes it a reasonable assumption, that if the whole show cannot be recorded, don't record any of it.

Now, if the guide times are not standard, and the actual show times don't match the guide times, then we have bigger problems. Since it means the guide times are completely worthless. At least with standard times, multiple networks play nice even if they mess with actual times. With non standard times, I would expect actual times to match. This solves the problem of trying to determine what a network will really do. When they don't match, it's bad for both getting all of the shows from a single network, and not missing parts of a show.

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barlav is offline Old Post 01-07-2004 11:35 PM
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If this NBC start/stop time thing will be the way of the future then perhaps TiVo could add a "buffer zone" feature to the software? This feature would be measured in minutes and defaulted to 0. If the user wished to he/she could set this value to something other than 0 (say any value 1-5 or 1-10) and TiVo could check overlap conflicts and ones that overlapped by the "buffer zone" value or less would not be considered a conflict and would adjust on the fly such that both programs would be recorded. Of course one of the programs (perhaps the one with lower priority) would be missing the amount of time contained in the overlap.

Just my 2 cents

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cwoody222 is offline Old Post 01-08-2004 12:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by smak
This finally bit me last night, i didn't miss anything, but i had to re-arrange around 5 shows to different tivo's to still get everything...

If I had 1 tivo, i don't know what i'd do, I hate setting up manual recordings.

Freakin' The Apprentice pilot goes from like 8:32 to 9:59 or some utter nonsense like that. Not to mention the fact the show is on Thursday, Saturday and then Wednesday to help screw up a bunch of other SP's.

-smak-



The Sat. episode is a re-airing and edited version of Thursday's. You can skip that one.

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TivoGeezer is offline Old Post 01-08-2004 12:45 AM
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Re: More NBC shows to start a minute early (causing more conflicts!)

quote:
Originally posted by laurel
Shows that will start a minute early include: Law & Order, Law & Order: SVU, Ed (after it makes the move to Friday nights), The Apprentice, Average Joe: Hawaii, and Las Vegas.


I feel fortunate that I do not watch any of these shows. My wife has an ER SP but it does not interfere with anything were are recording before that time slot.

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