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>>> Why I won't preorder HD Directivo <<<

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jfischer is offline Old Post 03-06-2004 11:20 PM
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jfischer
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Posts: 386

quote:
And I predict that they won't. There's no reason to believe they will be.


No reason? I can think of a few...

How long has it taken TiVo/DirecTV to fix the guide data bug on the current systems? Months! What about the audio dropouts on the HDVR2?

Since DirecTV (and/or their hardware vendors) cannot make a bug-free stand alone HDTV receiver (even after three generations of trying), why do you think the HD TiVo won't suffer the same fate?

The HD Tivo is infinitely more complicated than a stand-alone HDTV receiver, so how they'll get it right when none of the other HDTV boxes work right is beyond me.

I admire your childlike faith in DirecTV and TiVo, but their previous track record on HDTV receivers is less than stellar. I have no reason to expect that they'll break their streak with the HD TiVo.

If the HD TiVo comes out and doesn't spontaneously reboot, drop audio and lose the guide settings I'll be impressed!

Last edited by jfischer on 03-06-2004 at 11:32 PM

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Cudahy is offline Old Post 03-06-2004 11:40 PM
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Cudahy
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Since they've been beta testing it for many months now I assume there's been no serious bug or the rollout would be delayed.

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MCodanti is offline Old Post 03-06-2004 11:47 PM
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MCodanti
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quote:
Originally posted by jfischer
Since DirecTV (and/or their hardware vendors) cannot make a bug-free stand alone HDTV receiver (even after three generations of trying), why do you think the HD TiVo won't suffer the same fate?

The HD Tivo is infinitely more complicated than a stand-alone HDTV receiver, so how they'll get it right when none of the other HDTV boxes work right is beyond me.

I admire your childlike faith in DirecTV and TiVo, but their previous track record on HDTV receivers is less than stellar. I have no reason to expect that they'll break their streak with the HD TiVo.



You can't really compare the SA HDTV receivers, because they are made by LG, etc.. I think TiVo has a much higher quality standard then the other companies. They are also much smaller, so if there are big problems it will really hurt their reputation, and hinder future partnering deals. Put another way, it is really in TiVo;s interest to get it right the first time.

And yes while it might take a while for DirecTV to sign off on a software update for existing boxes, TiVo probably doesn't have to wait for DirecTV in the beta stage.

My only hope is that the 200, or how ever many of them there are, beta testers are really good, and have really pounded on these things so that TiVo can't get it right the first time and can avoid the DirecTV delay.

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aaron.s is offline Old Post 03-06-2004 11:47 PM
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aaron.s
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Cudahy -

I believe that Robert from Value Electronics (in the pre-order thread) indicated that the beta test was over already and that the platform seems to be working quite well.....

As #26 on the pre-order list, this makes me quite happy!

Aaron

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jfischer is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 12:04 AM
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jfischer
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quote:
Originally posted by MCodanti
You can't really compare the SA HDTV receivers, because they are made by LG, etc.. I think TiVo has a much higher quality standard then the other companies.


Let's not forget that TiVo released the HDVR2 with audio dropout problems, and the recurring guide data issues.

I'm sure they'll beta test the boxes (and I don't doubt that LG does testing too), but I have my doubts that this box will be anywhere near "bug free" when it ships. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised...

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hongcho is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 12:35 AM
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hongcho
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Well... is it just me that these days, I can't really buy anything without worrying about a bug in an electronics?

But then, if I am that worried, I wouldn't have bought all these gadgets around me...

Hong.

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Budget_HT is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 12:37 AM
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Budget_HT
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IMHO, there will be no significant bugs in the DirecTV/TiVo HD STB. Yes, there will be some small bugs. I defy any critic here to produce a perfect hardware and software combination to do the same thing in the same price range and time frame.

I believe the most risky part of OTA HDTV has been avoided--that being the reliance on PSIP data. The DirecTV APG already includes OTA guide data that I have been using painlessly with my HD STB for many months. So, there is no need to rely on PSIP data. Also, this APG approach helps DirecTV lock in HD customers, which is okay with me. In my area, Comcast is best used for broadband internet access, not TV.

I own a series 1 and a series 2 DirecTV DVR with TiVo. I also own a Hughes E-86 HD STB. My series 1 currently has no "service-affecting" bugs. It performs flawlessly and has for well over two years. My series 2 has an occasional audio dropout right after fast forward or pause--a MINOR bug that does not interfere with my reasons for owning the boxes in the first place.

My E-86 just recently developed a bug with the program guide losing data for 2 specific channels from time to time. Obviously no one has figured out where the "real" problem lies. I would guess there is some compatibility issue that may or may not be fixable within the E-86. Anyway, this is a minor annoyance to me, but not a showstopper. The APG guide data for both DirecTV satellite channels and OTA DTV channels have worked fine for many months since the Zap2It-->DirecTV-->HD STB issues were corrected for 2 channels in our market.

Bottom line from my perspective: Chances are good that the new DirecTV/TiVo HD DVR will meet or exceed my "needs" and desires. Even with any unresolved minor bugs, I would much rather have the product now than later. I can hardly stand having to watch HDTV live after enjoying the benefits of DirecTV DVR with TiVo for well over 2 years.

We can't afford to wait for or pay for perfection here. Bring it on--I have waited long enough. TiVo time shifting of HDTV--and without gray sidebars--here I come!!

<end rant>

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btwyx is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 04:27 AM
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btwyx
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Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaelK I think to say that they havent planned their scheduling software to be scalable and to say they came out with a new hardware platform basically last year without planning for scalability is, to borrow llogan's words, absolutely ridiculous.
It may be ridiculous, but its also reality as far as software engineering (mis)management goes. There have been plenty of occasions where I would have liked to do something right the first time, only to be given a schedule which made that difficult to impossible. It can be very difficult to persuade a (mis)manager to allow a little extra time now so that you'll actually finish on schedule, let alone start talking to them about the next release.

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midas is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 04:34 AM
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midas
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Make no mistake about it, there will be bugs. There are bugs even in the current released products. Every version of TiVo software has had bugs. What would anybody thing the HDTivo would be any different?

The question is, how bad will the bugs be? My guess, no worse than the rest.

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dswallow is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 04:54 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by midas
Make no mistake about it, there will be bugs. There are bugs even in the current released products. Every version of TiVo software has had bugs. What would anybody thing the HDTivo would be any different?

The question is, how bad will the bugs be? My guess, no worse than the rest.

Considering I've never come across a bug in my non-TiVo HD receiver, I'm also not sure how prevalent or serious such bugs in those receivers really are; obviously they affect some people, but others seem never to encounter them.

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JTAnderson is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:05 AM
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JTAnderson
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Speaking of bugs...

I just hope the HD DTiVos don't believe the time they get from the OTA stations. If you think there are problems with DIRECTV's timekeeping, you haven't seen anything yet.

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AbMagFab is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:13 AM
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AbMagFab
I love my HD Tivo!!

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Also to point out, if you were to order today, you'll likely be waiting 4-12 weeks after the first of us get our box to get your box just due to the backorder. These are $1000, not the $400 SAT-T60's, so the manufacturing will likely be even less.

I think you've made a mistake if your window was only one month. If it's 6 months, then maybe.

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dswallow is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:19 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by AbMagFab
Also to point out, if you were to order today, you'll likely be waiting 4-12 weeks after the first of us get our box to get your box just due to the backorder. These are $1000, not the $400 SAT-T60's, so the manufacturing will likely be even less.

I think you've made a mistake if your window was only one month. If it's 6 months, then maybe.

I believe Value Electronics is still quoting delivery before the end of April on pre-orders placed now. They're definitely not quoting 12 weeks out from the end of March when the first deliveries should start trickling out.

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AbMagFab is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:22 AM
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AbMagFab
I love my HD Tivo!!

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
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That would be 4 weeks. And remember, VE (and anyone else) can't say for sure how many they'll get in the first order, let alone in subsequent orders.

I doubt Hughes (or whomever) is prepared to fill all the early adopter orders within a month. They will slowly trickle units out until the current demand is met. Based on even the SAT-T60, I'd expect 2-3 months before units become readily available.

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SD-DVR40 240GB with Linksys USB200M, TivoWeb, TyTool, tivoapp patches, caller-id, mfs_ftp (but no S1->S2)
HR10-250 HD DirecTivo, 500GB with LinkSys USB200M, TivoWebPlus, HDTyTool, tivoapp patches, caller-id, mfs-ftp

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dswallow is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:29 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by AbMagFab
That would be 4 weeks. And remember, VE (and anyone else) can't say for sure how many they'll get in the first order, let alone in subsequent orders.

I doubt Hughes (or whomever) is prepared to fill all the early adopter orders within a month. They will slowly trickle units out until the current demand is met. Based on even the SAT-T60, I'd expect 2-3 months before units become readily available.

That's probably true, mostly because more pre-orders will be accumulated in the next 4 weeks, not just through Value Electronics, since there seem to be at least 3 or 4 other places now taking pre-orders, and likely many more once availability becomes closer and more buzz develops in various media.

But if you ordered today. Something like 4-6 weeks from the date units begin shipping would be closer, I think.

Once units start shipping, it probably will become even harder to get one in the near term... since word of mouth from people who now have one should push interest up even further.

So your guess on 2-3 months (from the date they start shipping?) before you can hope to walk into a store and pick one up, might actually be optimistic.

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Darin is offline Old Post 03-07-2004 06:46 AM
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Darin
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quote:
Originally posted by jfischer
How long has it taken TiVo/DirecTV to fix the guide data bug on the current systems? Months! What about the audio dropouts on the HDVR2?

Well, then you need to define "fairly buggy" and "riddled with bugs". As I stated in my previous message, I expect there to be a few issues, but I don't expect them to be anything major. While there may be some existing guide data issues, I've never noticed them on my Tivo. I don't have a series 2 box, but my sister and BIL do, and they never noticed the audio dropouts until I mentioned it to them. To me, "fairly buggy" or "riddled with bugs" means the boxes have issues so prevalent that they impair your ability to use and enjoy them. I just don't expect that to be the case. I am NOT happy about spending this kind of money to timeshift HD, but when it came down to it, I didn't want to wait until 4th quarter to do so. I decided that the continued pain of having to watch HD on the networks' schedule was not worth the money I'd save by waiting. I simply don't expect there to be any issues to significantly impair that ability.
quote:
The HD Tivo is infinitely more complicated than a stand-alone HDTV receiver

But it's not infinitely more complicated than an SD DirecTiVo, which I think is a better comparison. As I said, I expect there to be some OTA issues, but I'll be surprised if there is anything major beyond that.

quote:
I admire your childlike faith in DirecTV and TiVo

Awww, how sweet.... I haven't been given an age-based compliment in, well, ok, maybe lunch. But it's appreciated just the same. But my "faith" isn't blind. It's simply based on my perception of the differences between the SD tivo that has been working quite well for several years now, and an HD version that has little difference except the output section, and the OTA tuners, that have been reportedly working well in beta for some time now. Either way, we'll find out in a matter of weeks.

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 03-08-2004 05:17 AM
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JimSpence
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My Hughes HTL-HD receiver has two bugs that I know of. It has an audio dropout for a second or two, this is minor. The bigger one is that the unit will lock up occasionally and it reboots. This takes a couple of minutes. This is supposed to be fixed in the next firmware update which is supposed to be rolling out now. I have yet to see it.

So, bottom line is that I will wait to see what happens with the HDTiVo before jumping on as an early adopter. Also, can't really afford one right now.

Anyone think that the price will drop in time for next Christmas buying season?

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elstonhill is offline Old Post 03-08-2004 05:37 AM
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elstonhill
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My RCA, which is four years old, and was one of the first receivers out works flawlessly. I had one of the first TIVO's and it worked flawlessly as did my DirecTV TIVO which was one of the first of that model to come out. I have optimistically ordered the new HDTV TIVO and hope my good fortune continues.

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jfischer is offline Old Post 03-08-2004 07:22 AM
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jfischer
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quote:
Originally posted by elstonhill
My RCA, which is four years old, and was one of the first receivers out works flawlessly. I had one of the first TIVO's and it worked flawlessly as did my DirecTV TIVO which was one of the first of that model to come out. I have optimistically ordered the new HDTV TIVO and hope my good fortune continues.


Isn't that sad? The DTC-100 is almost rock-solid, yet the newer boxes are flaky as hell...

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Budget_HT is offline Old Post 03-08-2004 09:29 AM
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Budget_HT
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quote:
Originally posted by JTAnderson
Speaking of bugs...

I just hope the HD DTiVos don't believe the time they get from the OTA stations. If you think there are problems with DIRECTV's timekeeping, you haven't seen anything yet.



If DirecTV is consistent with their E-86 HD STB, the new HD DirecTV DVR with TiVo will not rely on PSIP at all. If they follow the newer generation boxes, PSIP would only be used if their APG data from the satellite was not available for some local channel.

I too am hoping that PSIP data has no role in the HD TiVo from DirecTV.

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