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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<
Which option most closely resembles your thoughts on native passthrough?
This poll is closed.
I will not buy a HR10-250 until it can do native passthrough 42 18.75%
Native passthrough would be cool, but I'll survive without it. 157 70.09%
I like my TiVo like I like my Ronco-matic. Set it and forget it! 25 11.16%
Total: 224 votes 100%
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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:29 AM
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dswallow
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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Long Branch, NJ, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberTom
Please help me understand this. My Toshiba can change to any mode. So say your Tivo recorded Monday Night Football on ABC which they broadcast in 720p. Then I would set my Tivo and Toshiba both to 720p. And there would not be any conversion of the signal, right?
That's right. It'd be 720p the whole way through to your display.

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CyberTom is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 11:32 AM
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CyberTom
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Registered: Oct 2003
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Posts: 40

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
That's right. It'd be 720p the whole way through to your display.


Thanks Doug.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 06:33 PM
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GoodSpike
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8396

quote:
Originally posted by CyberTom
Please help me understand this. My Toshiba can change to any mode. So say your Tivo recorded Monday Night Football on ABC which they broadcast in 720p. Then I would set my Tivo and Toshiba both to 720p. And there would not be any conversion of the signal, right?


You don't say what Toshiba you have, but if it's a RP CRT Toshiba, it probably is converting 720p to 1080i. So the question would be which would convert it better, the Tivo or the Toshiba.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 06:39 PM
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bkdtv
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Registered: Jan 2003
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People only want native mode for SD because they feel their set does a better job handling that material -- be it in the scaling / upconversion or stretch modes.

If the Tivo had built-in 3/2 pull-down for film sourced content, with scaling and stretch options as good or better than featured in available displays, then there would be little to no demand for such native pass-through. I think this should be the long-term goal with the next-generation HDTV DirecTivo.

Native pass-through for 720p and 1080i is necessary for those sets that can do both without scaling. Native passthrough for SD is only an interim solution.

Agreed?

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bdlucas is offline Old Post 04-26-2004 07:13 PM
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bdlucas
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Westchester Co., NY
Posts: 236

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv

If the Tivo had built-in 3/2 pull-down for film sourced content, with scaling and stretch options as good or better than featured in available displays, then there would be little to no demand for such native pass-through. I think this should be the long-term goal with the next-generation HDTV DirecTivo.



That, and fix the reported line-twitter problem.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a reasonable theory as to how this is happening? I have a reasonable technical knowledge of computer graphics, display technology, and so on, but I'm a little hard-pressed to think of how a 480i to 1080i conversion could introduce line twitter.

Well, I do have one theory: avoiding line twitter on a standard 480i display involves (1) some vertical filtering before the signal is broadcast so that single-line vertical detail is smeared out to reduce the difference between adjacent even and odd lines in the two fields (this I know is true), and (2) some overlap on your screen between adjacent even and odd scan lines in the two fields (this is the part that I'm not sure is required to reduce line twitter). If this is required to reduce line twitter, then a 480i to 1080i conversion would have to simulate this by doing some additional vertical filtering on the higher vertical resolution 1080i signal, and this would represent a step that might be missing with the HR10-250.

Is this anywhere close?

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tgibbs is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 03:29 AM
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tgibbs
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
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Philips TVs

quote:
Originally posted by bdlucas
Wouldn't particularly help me, because my Philips direct-view CRT only accepts 1080i (and 480p IIRC) on the HD input, and only 480i on the other inputs.

I am however motivated to use 480i for SD material because the TV has a pretty decent scalar (no line twitter, inverse 3:2 pulldown). Guess I'll want to write some macros for my MX-700 that simultaneously change TV input and TiVo mode. Anyone figured out discrete codes (or a simulation thereof using a sequence of keys) for switching the output mode of the HD TiVo?



I hope you'll post the solution that you come up with. I have the same TV.

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hongcho is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 04:09 AM
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hongcho
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Registered: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 591

I am sure someone already mentioned it, but the real nice thing would be a separate screen with

User Configured
480i --> [ 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i ]
480p --> [ 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i ]
720p --> [ 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i ]
1080i --> [ 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i ]

And one other option "user-configured" under the current video format list (so that it could be also "up-arrow"-ed).

Hong.

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btwyx is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 04:19 AM
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btwyx
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 3095

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
People only want native mode for SD because they feel their set does a better job handling that material -- be it in the scaling / upconversion or stretch modes.

...

Agreed?

Not agreed. There's the fundamental issue of I don't want the signal mucked with if it doesn't have to be. The other good stuff comes along for the ride.

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tgibbs is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:16 AM
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tgibbs
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quote:
Originally posted by btwyx
Not agreed. There's the fundamental issue of I don't want the signal mucked with if it doesn't have to be. The other good stuff comes along for the ride.


I don't understand. Almost all TVs have a native resolution (indeed, with digital displays, this is unavoidable), and any signal not already in that resolution is going to have to be "mucked with" to fit it. The question is who mucks with it. If you trust the TiVo to do that, then you could just set the TiVo to always output at your TV set's resolution and forget it.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:18 AM
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bkdtv
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quote:
Not agreed. There's the fundamental issue of I don't want the signal mucked with if it doesn't have to be. The other good stuff comes along for the ride.
I guess you don't like progressive scan DVD players?

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:25 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by tgibbs
If you trust the TiVo to do that, then you could just set the TiVo to always output at your TV set's resolution and forget it.
With most plasma displays, the native resolution of the display really doesn't match up with any of the HD formats. It'd be difficult to provide all the potential "native resolutions" necessary for everyone to be happy. But the alternative, providing the broadcast resolution without change, can satisfy everyone, including those whose display native resolution matches a particular broadcast resolution.

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btwyx is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:29 AM
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btwyx
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 3095

quote:
Originally posted by tgibbs
I don't understand. Almost all TVs have a native resolution (indeed, with digital displays, this is unavoidable), and any signal not already in that resolution is going to have to be "mucked with" to fit it. The question is who mucks with it. If you trust the TiVo to do that, then you could just set the TiVo to always output at your TV set's resolution and forget it.
I'd trust the display to do a better job, but would check it out before deciding, but what about the case where the native resolution of the display does not match any available output resolution?

I just want to have the option of not having the signal mucked about with.

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btwyx is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:31 AM
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btwyx
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 3095

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
I guess you don't like progressive scan DVD players?
I have very little opinion on them as I don't own one, but it is my understanding that some DVDs are formatted as progressive. You'd need a progressive scan DVD player to play those properly. As far as I know progressive scan players will give you the option of not mucking around with the signal, if that's what you want.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 05:59 AM
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bkdtv
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btw,

quote:
I have very little opinion on them (progressive scan DVD players) as I don't own one, but it is my understanding that some DVDs are formatted as progressive. You'd need a progressive scan DVD player to play those properly. As far as I know progressive scan players will give you the option of not mucking around with the signal, if that's what you want.
Most progressive scan DVD players shipping today decode at 480i first, regardless of the source. Despite that fact, they almost always deliver a better picture than what you get by sending a 480i signal to the display. In many cases, the improvement had with a progressive scan DVD player is quite dramatic.

As tgibbs notes, every set "mucks around" with the output, unless you are using a DVI signal with the native signal rate (resolution) of the display. When everything is done within the box, as it is done with progressive scan DVD players, you have the benefit of all processing performed in the digital domain. You avoid the extra D/A and A/D steps required to process the signal in the television. The elimination of those A/D and D/A steps allows for more reliable de-interlace and a less degraded picture.

Assuming comparable de-interlace and scaling technology in the DVD player or STB, it is not technically possible to exceed the performance of the box, in scaling to the native resolution of a digital display. The issue with the HD Tivo is that it lacks modern de-interlace technology. Broadcom just announced their next-generation MP@HL decoders with this functionality, so you'll have it on the next-generation HDTV DirecTivo.

Last edited by bkdtv on 04-27-2004 at 06:06 AM

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tgibbs is offline Old Post 04-27-2004 06:30 AM
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tgibbs
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quote:
Originally posted by btwyx
I have very little opinion on them as I don't own one, but it is my understanding that some DVDs are formatted as progressive. You'd need a progressive scan DVD player to play those properly. As far as I know progressive scan players will give you the option of not mucking around with the signal, if that's what you want.


As far as I know, there is no such thing as an "inherently progressive" DVD. The information is stored on the DVD player as successive 480i fields, and a progressive scan player mucks around with the signal quite extensively--indeed, far more than an interlaced player, deciding on the fly whether to combine two successive fields to generate a progressive signal (and if so, which fields to use and which to discard) or whether to interpolate the missing scan lines for each field separately (which is appropriate for material originally shot on video rather than film). The closest thing to a "progressive" DVD is that the fields can be tagged to provide a suggestion to the DVD player as to how to assemble them. Unfortunately, these suggestions are often incorrect, so the best DVD players decide dynamically how to do this, sometimes even treating one part of an image in one way and another part in a different way. Progressive TVs do essentially the same thing when given a 480i signal; however, the DVD player does have access to more information than the TV set, so in principle can do a better job of figuring out how to come up with the "missing" scan lines than the TV. Here is a reference:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volu...ve-10-2000.html

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bpdp379 is offline Old Post 04-28-2004 12:01 AM
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bpdp379
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
You're assuming the TV would convert it better than the Tivo.


Pretty good assumption.... Shouldn't I know what is best in MY situation?

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Last edited by bpdp379 on 04-28-2004 at 12:10 AM

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bpdp379 is offline Old Post 04-28-2004 12:09 AM
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bpdp379
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quote:
Originally posted by tgibbs
I don't understand. Almost all TVs have a native resolution (indeed, with digital displays, this is unavoidable), and any signal not already in that resolution is going to have to be "mucked with" to fit it. The question is who mucks with it. If you trust the TiVo to do that, then you could just set the TiVo to always output at your TV set's resolution and forget it.


But I don't trust the Tivo, I trust Faroudja....

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PRMan is offline Old Post 04-28-2004 12:20 AM
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PRMan
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I am assuming my TV will do a better job (GWIII), even without seeing the HDTiVo at all. This is because of past experience where, according to the legendary umr (and he's right):

- Progressive DVD players look worse in Progressive than in Interlaced mode. This is presumably because the TV knows how to scale and "line double" in the same pass. It knows how to do 3:2 pulldown.

- S-Video looks no better than Composite. They look the same, because the comb filter in this TV is so good.

- SD material looks good. It looks REALLY good. The TV can remove compression block noise, smooth as much or as little as you want, etc. There are 20 image enhancements, and they can be tweaked per input and per resolution (480i, 720p, etc.). And 15 of them are basically to make SD material look good.

- My TV scales way better than the hardware in my current HD box (HTL-HD). It's no contest.

With this kind of history, and since my TV takes all resolutions over the DVI cable (including 480i), is it really wrong of me to have faith that my TV will scale better than the TiVo?

So, yes, I'm certain I want some sort of native mode. But I agree with Hong that if you just let people set the out for each type of in, you support all possibilities.

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bdlucas is offline Old Post 04-28-2004 01:29 AM
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bdlucas
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quote:
Originally posted by PRMan
Progressive DVD players look worse in Progressive than in Interlaced mode. This is presumably because the TV knows how to scale and "line double" in the same pass. It knows how to do 3:2 pulldown.



That's certainly the case with my $100 Sony "progressive" DVD player vs my Philips 34" CRT HDTV.

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jmrife is offline Old Post 04-28-2004 02:08 AM
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jmrife
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Native mode is my preference

My Sony 34xbr910 has a stretch mode for 4:3 480i that is much more pleasing and appealing than a simple linear stretch. And the HD300 outputs native, so it is a great match for me.

Because most of the channels are SD, I will leave the HR10-250 in 480i mode until I hit an HD signal I want to stay with, then change the mode.

Is is a pain after the native mode functionality of the HD300?

Yep.

But I'll get used to flipping the switch much faster than I would grow to like linear stretch. If a software fix is available, I'm for it!

Until then, if this is a dealbreaker, there was never a deal anyway!

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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<

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