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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<
Which option most closely resembles your thoughts on native passthrough?
This poll is closed.
I will not buy a HR10-250 until it can do native passthrough 42 18.75%
Native passthrough would be cool, but I'll survive without it. 157 70.09%
I like my TiVo like I like my Ronco-matic. Set it and forget it! 25 11.16%
Total: 224 votes 100%
  [Edit Poll (moderators only)]


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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 12:58 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by drewcaplan
Thanks, that helps a lot, in fact it puts the Hughes unit back on the map for me. Something else I must be missing on the native rate question, though ... if you had native rate, then I understand that the format would change automatically based on the source. But I assume you would need something such as I saw suggested earlier to specifically control mapping. For instance, wouldn't you want to specify how to handle 480i source? If it is passed through as 480i, then the viewer would have to manually switch between digital and analog inputs on the monitor, no? (unless some modern TVs are much smarter than I have seen). Instead, if you could tell it to pass through everything native, except to pass 480i as 480p, then you'd always be digital at the TV end and could use the TV's conversion capabilities to go from there...

Am I just being stupid or would you minimally need the 480i override on top of an "all native" approach?

The actual implementation of "native rate" options would hopefully allow for some selection of which output formats it's allowed to choose from. It could be done now, for instance, just by using the up-arrow list as the allowed output formats. If any are unchecked a native rate option would select the next best choice.

But we'll have to wait and see if and how such a feature ever gets implemented.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 01:17 AM
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GoodSpike
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Another thread on this "native" thing!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=172343

Now I'm really confused!

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Agrajag is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 01:20 AM
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Agrajag
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quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
Did I mention that recently, after 14 months of use, I finally recognized my non-linear stretch mode on the Fujitsu P50 also zooms in a bit, too? Funny I never noticed that before till all these threads about native rate got me interested in figuring out why the non-linear stretch looked so good. It doesn't have to stretch as much on the edges because it zooms in a bit, dropping the upper and lower parts of the image.


Is the P50 a STB? Don't know that one. The Natural Wide mode on the Pioneer TV does what yours does. It zooms JUST a bit and the results are excellent. News scrolls are still no problem to read but the border is at the very bottom of the text with no room to spare. Frankly, I've used zoom a few times to hide the damned thing entirely.

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 01:21 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by Agrajag
Is the P50 a STB? Don't know that one. The Natural Wide mode on the Pioneer TV does what yours does. It zooms JUST a bit and the results are excellent. News scrolls are still no problem to read but the border is at the very bottom of the text with no room to spare. Frankly, I've used zoom a few times to hide the damned thing entirely.
Fujitsu P50 - 50" plasma display.

I'd guess that tiny amount of zoom is no worse than better CRT's and their usual overscan.

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Agrajag is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 01:22 AM
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Agrajag
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Re: convenience vs. price

quote:
Originally posted by tgibbs
My recollection was that VHS won out due to price. When I was buying my first VCR, beta and VHS were pretty neck-and-neck in the market, with the quality advantage to beta. Beta machines were also far more convenient to use due to superior tape handling (also, Sony's remotes tended to be better designed). But the VHS machines were substantially cheaper.


Well, admittedly it was a long time ago but I recall the battle being rather neck-and-neck for quite some time and then the decision really came down to VHS tapes being far more available than beta. Rental companies, new then, went for VHS in a big way and that amounts to a lot of convenience. I believe that lead to the price coming way down, though, if memory serves, VHS was generally a bit less expensive than Beta from pretty early on.

quote:
it's far more important that the first release be relatively bug free than every possible feature be included in the first release.


(Sorry to mix replies but I hate having several messages in a row.)

On this point I could not agree more.

quote:
The actual implementation of "native rate" options would hopefully allow for some selection of which output formats it's allowed to choose from. It could be done now, for instance, just by using the up-arrow list as the allowed output formats. If any are unchecked a native rate option would select the next best choice.


Just for those who aren't aware of it, check out the specs of the Sony and Zenith HD boxes. They support several variations on this. They support locking to one resolution. They support passing everything as is and they also have several different modes that have pre-configured mappings. They don't have interactive mapping but that seems easy enough.

Last edited by Agrajag on 04-29-2004 at 01:35 AM

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jose39 is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 02:04 AM
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jose39
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If you watch a 4:3 ratio picture on a plasma Tv won't you get a burn in from the bars?

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tgibbs is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 02:14 AM
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tgibbs
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bars and burn-in?

quote:
Originally posted by jose39
If you watch a 4:3 ratio picture on a plasma Tv won't you get a burn in from the bars?


This raises an interesting question. Does the HDTiVo generate black bars, or is it smart enough to use grey? I suppose that optimally, to minimize burn-in, you would want a shade approaching the average luminance of the video signal. Presumably, this is something that could be adjusted in software.

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btwyx is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 02:15 AM
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Re: bars and burn-in?

quote:
Originally posted by tgibbs
This raises an interesting question. Does the HDTiVo generate black bars, or is it smart enough to use grey?
Its configurable and defaults to grey.

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dswallow is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 02:30 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by jose39
If you watch a 4:3 ratio picture on a plasma Tv won't you get a burn in from the bars?
It would depend upon how hot you run for plasma display. If you crank up brightness and contrast all the way and then display something all the time in the sameplace, you'll likely have a higer risk of burn-in. This would include when you don't use areas of the screen, such as with black bars.

If you have things adjusted lower, and 4:3 material is just a part of what you regularly view, the likelihood is pretty slim you'll see any effects from burn-in.

The only places running plasmas that bright should be commercial locations or perhaps in-store displays... unless you've got sunlight coming into your viewing room when you're watching it, it's unlikely you could stand watching it so bright.

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tgibbs is offline Old Post 04-29-2004 02:33 AM
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tgibbs
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Re: beta and vhs

quote:
Originally posted by Agrajag
Well, admittedly it was a long time ago but I recall the battle being rather neck-and-neck for quite some time and then the decision really came down to VHS tapes being far more available than beta. Rental companies, new then, went for VHS in a big way and that amounts to a lot of convenience. I believe that lead to the price coming way down, though, if memory serves, VHS was generally a bit less expensive than Beta from pretty early on.


Here is how I remember it: Initially, the beta machines were more expensive, but as a manufacturer of high-end equipment that traditionally sold at a premium price, Sony didn't see this as a problem. They viewed the VCR primarily as a device for time-shifting broadcast TV, so they didn't care whether they had the dominant market share, so long as they had a good profit margin. Prerecorded video tapes were initially expensive ($100 or so, which was real money back then) and purchased only by a minority of videophiles--the same people who would tend to buy Sony products. What Sony didn't anticipate was the dominant role that video rental stores would come to play in driving the market. It was very expensive for rental shops to carry two formats of pre-recorded tapes. So they tended to favor the format with the biggest market share--which was the cheaper VHS machines. But this in turn led buyers who were interested in renting tapes to favor the system that was best represented at their local video rental shop, which led shops to further reduce their purchases of beta tapes. When Sony realized what was going on, they dropped the price of their beta players, but by then they were too far behind to catch up.

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>>> What are your thoughts on a native output mode? <<<

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