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>>> Ebay Tivo's.....make me sick to my stomach. <<<

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drober30 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 01:23 AM
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drober30
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But would it be better to give people in this forum first shot or just post it to the world on ebay?

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dswallow is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 01:27 AM
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dswallow
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quote:
Originally posted by lark
I like the original poster's point, and I don't really think it's just a "willing buyer/willing seller" issue.

I think the point is that if the lines are artificially long due to people on this forum buying them to sell them, and keeping others on the forum from getting them more quickly (or maybe even paying a markup to another member), that's kind of stinky and a little inconsistent with the notion of community.

Reasonable people can differ on the point, I think, but it's not a bad point.

Just as a way of comparison, there are similar forums to this one for music bands and stuff, and because of tips I have gotten on those boards, I have been able to get excellent concert tickets for certain bands that I really like. If I get them and end up with extras, I never ever sell them for a profit. I simply refuse to be a ticket scalper, just as I probably would refuse to be a tivo scalper. But the point is that you see the exact same debate on those message boards, with both sides being fairly judgmental of the other. I've always thought people on both sides of the debate have strong and reasonable arguments, it's really just a matter of personal choice.


I think that sums up my feelings on the matter pretty well.

What if DirecTV took this approach. They know more people want them than they can make units quickly... why not let the market determine the price until supply can meet demand? I think many of us would be loudly complaining if DirecTV did that.

I understand it. I understand the temptation. I'm just expressing my disappointment that it goes on, maybe moreso when it's people within this community engaging in it. We've generally all help each other find these things, and I don't think we did so with the intent that there'd be profit made in the reselling of them. We did so in an attempt to help each other get them earlier, as users/subscribers.

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DmgInc is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 01:28 AM
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How is selling a Tivo on eBay any different than a "Rare" Xmas toy, e.g. Tickle Me Elmo? It's basic supply and demand. Shortage of supply w/an increase in demand = someone willing to pay a premium.

Also, a simple search for "HD Tivo Preorder" on google would have yielded plenty of info on where/how to pre-order one. So saying nobody would have known w/o this forum is a bit much.

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drober30 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 01:45 AM
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drober30
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I did not place preorders to turn around and sell them.

At this point I dont even have one(however my order is being shipped at this time) but if I end up with two then one will be sold for a profit!

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gamecox86 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 01:57 AM
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gamecox86
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quote:
Originally posted by drober30
I did not place preorders to turn around and sell them.

At this point I dont even have one(however my order is being shipped at this time) but if I end up with two then one will be sold for a profit!



I have pre-orders ranging from $854 to $1055. If I get the $854 in first, I will probably just cancel the others. If not, I may try to sell the ones that come last on Ebay to drive down my ultimate cost.

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Enane is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:03 AM
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Enane
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I don't think people pre-ordered Tivo with the idea of selling it. And if they did it and they researched the Internet and found this forum and found about the pre-orders, shouldn't that person deserve a compensation for that? Plus, this IS NOT a "must have" item, so if you want it "now" and you didn't know about the pre-order, then you can still have it paying a premium. Again, this is an expensive toy and if you don't want to pay excesive $$$$ for it, then just sit and wait until BB, CC or any other vendor gets them in stock.
Now, I have to go and check My Ebay to see if someone ordered my HD Tivo !!! j/k

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CoreyMD is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:05 AM
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I also agree with the original poster's sentiments. Regardless of how one finds out about the pre-order, it boils down to taking advantage of the situation for personal gain.

You can masquerade that tactic as healthy economics, but the fact remains that the people who buy more than one unit with the express intent of milking it for money have just removed an opportunity for someone else to buy at that price.

Making extra cash on eBay is great, but the "greed is good" mantra shouldn't play into it... that's BS.

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convbcuda is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:09 AM
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convbcuda
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The problem is not with the sellers of HDTivos on eBay, it's the buyers. What is a seller supposed to do, refuse any more bids when the price hits $1000?

Everyone who wants one of these receivers will have a chance to buy one at the $999 price. You may have to wait (like me), but you will be able to get one.

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Enane is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:09 AM
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Enane
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quote:
Originally posted by CoreyMD
You can masquerade that tactic as healthy economics, but the fact remains that the people who buy more than one unit with the express intent of milking it for money have just removed an opportunity for someone else to buy at that price.



Well, if you bought more than 1 unit from Robert it is my understanding the he only shipped 1 per customer from his first allocation, so that person will be out of luck... and in the event that someone gets more than 1, why would you pay double the MSRP for something that you can live without? Is it thaaaaaat important to have it today/tomorrow? Maybe I'm missing somehting....

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Life is good !!! (as long as you have a Tivo in your living room)

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gamecox86 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:14 AM
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gamecox86
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quote:
Originally posted by Enane
Well, if you bought more than 1 unit from Robert it is my understanding the he only shipped 1 per customer from his first allocation, so that person will be out of luck... and in the event that someone gets more than 1, why would you pay double the MSRP for something that you can live without? Is it thaaaaaat important to have it today/tomorrow? Maybe I'm missing somehting....


Now that is an Enane comment if I ever saw one!

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TivoGuyinDallas is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:14 AM
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TivoGuyinDallas
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morg111
[B]I doubt you will be making a 60% profit on those.

As the first seller of any HR10-250 on Ebay I should point out the profit margin was a little closer to 133%. If you annualized my return taking into consideration when I paid for it, when I received payment and assume I could duplicate it, my annual return would be something like 6,916% before compounding.


I wonder what makes me sleazy or even greedy for that matter? I spent a great deal of time acquiring this machine and had every intention of putting it in my home; albeit my intention is irrelvant. I saw an opportunity because supply was extremely tight. As an avid consumer who often feels like I must have it first (which I did), I thought someone would be willing to pay significantly more because they had not done their homework ahead of time or they just didn't care about the money. In case you don't get it, I was right of course.

Someone from your (now OUR forum) posted about it here and I found out from the buyer. My listing had 32 hits the morning after I listed it. By noon it had 700 hits after someone (thank you) listed the link here. No one had to buy it and the demand was unreal. I really think I could have held out for $3,000 looking back.

You stated "I doubt you will be making a 60% profit on those" refering to another member selling his old units. One of the few statements from you that I agree with, but please explain the relevancy of selling something on Ebay for either a profit or loss. Using your own flawed argument, forum members should pitch in to cover his losses as he has to sell something for less than he paid for it. Selling at a loss is also immoral according to you. We can only sell things for the same price we paid for them.

Let's take your 'morals' argument one step further. You think it is sleazy and unfriendly to sell it for a profit (it's called Capitalism). I think you are essentially suggesting some form of Socialism would be appropriate here. How about this? If you can get all forum members to agree to this, I will take my profits and donate them to the charity of your choice. You stated "with my morals, I'd feel bad about ripping off forum members..."


Here is how it should really work according to you because a truly 'moral' or Morg111 society would not only have everyone paying the same price, but.......

NO FORUM MEMBER can get their new HR10-250 Tivo until EVERYONE who wants one has one. How about that? You get all the people who paid $899-$2500 to agree, uninstall their Tivo's and I will donate my profits to charity. You can arrange to store them in the Morg111 Kremlin.
Please keep me up to date with your progress.


Those of you that are not willing to pay more and those of you that were either not fortunate to order early, didn't know any better, are eternal procrastinators or are just lazy, you can now benefit from Morg111's morals. No one will get it before you and the majority can wait several more months. Ah, eternal Bliss Morg111.


It dumbfounds me how someone can be sleazy or taking advantage when you have a willing buyer and seller of a legal product.

Herdfan:
Interesting you would say forum members should not be allowed to advertise Ebay listings here (which I didn't, but would have no problem if I did). Regarding my specific listing-Who do you think the interested parties were? Most inquiries were from FORUM MEMBERS.

We live in a free and open society. Perhaps your vision and Morg111's vision is the Tivo Community Forum should be a microcosm of Marxist Society?

Last edited by TivoGuyinDallas on 05-05-2004 at 02:24 AM

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Morg111 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:29 AM
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Morg111
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quote:
I understand it. I understand the temptation. I'm just expressing my disappointment that it goes on, maybe moreso when it's people within this community engaging in it. We've generally all help each other find these things, and I don't think we did so with the intent that there'd be profit made in the reselling of them. We did so in an attempt to help each other get them earlier, as users/subscribers.


Amen,

That was my point! I have been on 3 pre-order lists as far back as February. I just narrowly missed two of them. And now because of some forum members greediness, I have to either pay $1,500ish (not going to pay more than $1,050, the price I would have paid to Tweeter) or wait till June. Those members used, what should be, a Community minded forum to take advantage of those that helped them in the first place.

quote:
Yet another example demonstrating that Americans by and large don't know squat about economics.


Its this kind of ignorant flaming and or attitudes that upsets me. I have worked in New York on both, The American Stock Exchange and the New York Mercantile as a market maker in derivatives for 9yrs. In the last two years I created and now manage what has proven to be a highly successful hedge fund. Don't even try to blur the issue with economic principles. This is about how members might want to consider conducting themselves in relationship to their forum peers.


M.

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Morg111 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:38 AM
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Morg111
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quote:
Someone from your (now OUR forum) posted about it here and I found out from the buyer. My listing had 32 hits the morning after I listed it. By noon it had 700 hits after someone (thank you) listed the link here. No one had to buy it and the demand was unreal. I really think I could have held out for $3,000 looking back.



A real valuable addition to the AVS forum. First off, no direct sales postings are allowed here by indivdual forum members. So right off the bat you are wrong regardless of who posted your private sale.

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TivoGuyinDallas is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:40 AM
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TivoGuyinDallas
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WOW Getting worse

quote:
Originally posted by Morg111
Amen,
In the last two years I created and now manage what has proven to be a highly successful hedge fund. Don't even try to blur the issue with economic principles.
M.



Your argument gets weaker by the moment. So let me ask you a question. Let's assume you are running an equity hedge fund (but futures or derivative fund would work the same I just think this example will be more clairvoyant to the members).

You borrow 1,000 shares of MSFT from Member A. You sell them short at 27. Stock goes to 20. You buy the shares back for 20 and return the stock for a $7,000 profit. Member A is out $7,000. So according to your morals and principals, how much do you give Member A for his losses you sleazy greedy hedge fund guy?

You can't have it both ways.


You are obviously not too bright. How could I be wrong if I didn't post the link? Explain that one. The other member might be wrong IF it is in fact a rule.

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smith13 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:41 AM
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Here's the way I see it....if you want it bad enough you will pay the extra cash.I don't care how long you have waited or anybody else for that matter.I have been waiting forever too but you don't see me crying bloody murder because somebody wants to try and make a quick buck.Maybe I should call up Ford Motor Company and tell them to give me great deal on the new 2005 Mustang.But they will probably tell me tough luck,if you want it right off the line you will pay through the nose.

If you don't want to pay more than 1050.00 for it then you will just have to wait until everybody else who has paid more gets theirs.

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Geof in CO is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 02:44 AM
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Geof in CO
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How is someone selling an HD TiVo on eBay any different than Weaknees selling them for $1300? When did Weakness order them and did they bump someone's pre-order out? I'm not sure I completely buy into this argument that because 6 (for example) have sold on ebay that maybe someone lost out on getting one that was preordered a long time ago. To be sure I sympathize with that argument but I also think supply and demand are at play. You either pay the price or wait till it drops.

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Morg111 is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 03:10 AM
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Morg111
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quote:
Your argument gets weaker by the moment. So let me ask you a question. Let's assume you are running an equity hedge fund (but futures or derivative fund would work the same I just think this example will be more clairvoyant to the members). You borrow 1,000 shares of MSFT from Member A. You sell them short at 27. Stock goes to 20. You buy the shares back for 20 and return the stock for a $7,000 profit. Member A is out $7,000. So according to your morals and principals, how much do you give Member A for his losses you sleazy greedy hedge fund guy?

You can't have it both ways.


As your example of a trade makes no sense because that is not how the stock is distributed when selling short. I can take an educated guess that you are nothing but an arrogant little boy.

This is my last post on this thread for I have received several private messages from well respected members telling me not to bother with you. So have fun continuing to embarrass yourself with your last words.

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smak is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 03:32 AM
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smak
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I think the point is, supposedly this was supposed to be a deal for AVSForum & TC members...

People in this forum desparately want the HDTivo. For everybody taking up a space in line to get a box to sell on Ebay, that's one person who has to wait longer to get it.

We're not talking about somebody pre-ordering late and not receiving it because they were late, we're talking hours or minutes between people who have gotten them, and people who haven't. (edit: the first guy on the list who hasn't gotten one, ordered 8 MINUTES after the last guy who did!)

You can talk about economics, and supply and demand, but that is totally missing the point, which is that the seller's intent was to help out the forum with a special deal.

I would encourage Robert or anybody else to figure out a way in the future to force the buyer to have to use the box.

Somebody said something about concert tickets, and this would be akin to knowing a member of the band, asking to get some tickets, finding out they are going for 10 times face value and putting them up on ebay.

You have every legal right to do it, but that doesn't mean it's not a slap in the face to the person who got you them.

-smak-

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Last edited by smak on 05-05-2004 at 03:38 AM

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 03:43 AM
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GoodSpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Morg111
Its this kind of ignorant flaming and or attitudes that upsets me. I have worked in New York on both, The American Stock Exchange and the New York Mercantile as a market maker in derivatives for 9yrs. In the last two years I created and now manage what has proven to be a highly successful hedge fund. Don't even try to blur the issue with economic principles. This is about how members might want to consider conducting themselves in relationship to their forum peers.


Ignorant? Flaming?

I don't give a squat what you do for a living. If you don't understand basic economics, that's not a case of my being ignorant. That's you being ignorant.

As to flaming, your calling me ignorant is flaming. My pointing out your lack of understanding economic issues, that's fact.

And this whole idea that this forum is somehow special. What a laugh! Yes, I'm sure the dealers offered special prices to us because they liked us so much.

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GoodSpike is offline Old Post 05-05-2004 03:46 AM
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GoodSpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Morg111
As your example of a trade makes no sense because that is not how the stock is distributed when selling short. I can take an educated guess that you are nothing but an arrogant little boy.


This is the guy who's against flaming!

He also earns a living off of supply and demand, but complains about others making a profit.

Can you say hypocrite?

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>>> Ebay Tivo's.....make me sick to my stomach. <<<

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