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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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Larry Hutchinson is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 09:46 PM
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Larry Hutchinson
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I notice no obvious differences between my HD TiVo and my other receivers (DTC100 and HiPix) but I haven't A-B'ed them.

With the possible exception of the definition of black level in IRE units, there really should be no difference at all between different receivers. The conversion of MPEG data to picture data is mathematicaly fixed and unless the design engineers screwed up, they should all be the same.

Note that this does not include issues of format conversion -- just 1080i -> 1080i and the like.

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david(dallas) is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 09:47 PM
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david(dallas)
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I just put my unit in last night, so I have watched on good OTA HD yet to see any difference. BUT I think there is a noticeable difference when watching HDNET or DISCOVERY-0H, which had the best DH pictures in my opinion.
My previous HD200 provided a better HD picture than the new TIVO-HD.
But as stated by others, I living having a TIVO unit as my main unit again.
I now have 2 tivos (SD and HD) and no HD receiver. I might go back and change out my SD TIVO back to a HD receiver.
I personally would like to take advance of what all of this high priced tech is suppose to provide, the BEST HD picture available.
Coount me as someone that IS disappointed that the HD-TIVO HD picture as worst than my 1 year old HD 20 unit PLUS IT DOESN'T HANDLE CABLE AND AUTO DVI OUTPUT AND SIGNAL METER.

Is Directv going to allow Sony OR LG to build a HD-TIVO or are they going to corner the market?

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 10:32 PM
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bkdtv
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quote:
Is Directv going to allow Sony OR LG to build a HD-TIVO or are they going to corner the market?
It wouldn't much matter. The latest DirecTV HD receivers from Sony (HD300) and LG (3200A) have comparable quality to the HD Tivo. Both use variations of the same Broadcom MPEG-2 decoder, and DVI/HDMI transmitters from Silicon Image.

Certainly you all have noticed the fall in price of HDTV STBs in the past three years? Part of it has to do with volume, but it also has to do with increased integration and lower component costs. Cutting corners is one way to achieve lower costs at the silicon level. A HDTV Tivo at $999 would not have been possible using the techology in those older boxes. For the HD Tivo, DirecTV used the latest technology for PVR available to them at the time.

As others have noted, the picture settings on your display may need to be tweaked; optimal settings for a prior HDTV receiver may not be optimal for the DirecTivo HD.

Last edited by bkdtv on 05-09-2004 at 10:37 PM

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txfeinbergs is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 10:39 PM
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txfeinbergs
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Guys, I am pretty sure there is a slight degradation of picture quality with the High Def Tivo because it has to compress the digital using an MPEG format, and then uncompress it when displaying it back to TV. MPEG compression is not perfect and will cause a minor loss of quality and the tradeoff of having a much smaller file size. You would probably notice this more on OTA High Def recordings then you would on DirecTV feeds since I think that feed is already compressed (no idea what the HD TIVO does with it though).

I know that the picture was a little softer on my 1st generation TIVO when compared with the output directly out of my MItsubishi High Def receiver because of this. I don't have the high def TIVO yet, but will be getting it on Tuesday.

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zaknafein is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 10:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by txfeinbergs
Guys, I am pretty sure there is a slight degradation of picture quality with the High Def Tivo because it has to compress the digital using an MPEG format, and then uncompress it when displaying it back to TV. MPEG compression is not perfect and will cause a minor loss of quality and the tradeoff of having a much smaller file size. You would probably notice this more on OTA High Def recordings then you would on DirecTV feeds since I think that feed is already compressed (no idea what the HD TIVO does with it though).

I know that the picture was a little softer on my 1st generation TIVO when compared with the output directly out of my MItsubishi High Def receiver because of this. I don't have the high def TIVO yet, but will be getting it on Tuesday.



The HDTiVo takes the digital ATSC and DTV signal off the air/sat and records it directly to the hard drive. There is no compression being done on the box at all.

All things being equal on the analog side, an HDTiVos PQ should be identical to that of a non-TiVo HD receiver.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 05-09-2004 10:58 PM
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bkdtv
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quote:
Guys, I am pretty sure there is a slight degradation of picture quality with the High Def Tivo because it has to compress the digital using an MPEG format, and then uncompress it when displaying it back to TV.
As zak notes above, the HD DirecTivo has no means to compress HD. There is no MP@HL encoding hardware in the box. If there was, it would be closer to $3000 instead of $1000.

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david(dallas) is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 01:29 AM
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david(dallas)
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quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
It wouldn't much matter. The latest DirecTV HD receivers from Sony (HD300) and LG (3200A) have comparable quality to the HD Tivo. Both use variations of the same Broadcom MPEG-2 decoder, and DVI/HDMI transmitters from Silicon Image.


"comparable quality"? I guess everything is compariable quality. I don't know the hardware side of the units, but from what my eye's show me going from the HD200 to the TIVO-HD is a noticeable difference. Now is the HD300 made of lower quality HW than the HD200? I assume they were the same, but with a few more features. But I could be assuming wrong.

Also I did compare the golf coverage between OTA and Directv CBS East and they looked exactly the same to me. But unfortunately still below what I remember seeing on the HD200. Even worst, I compared the OTA to SD and I didn't see a great difference as I had seen on the HD200.
I'm not trying to DOG the HD-TIVO, again I think it's great to have finally, but if getting the BEST HD PQ is also having any older unit like the HD200, then I might be one that will have both.

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Paperboy2003 is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 01:49 AM
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Paperboy2003
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As a comparison, I went from a Sony HD100 to a HD200 as soon as the HD200 came out. I saw a difference when I made that switch. I thought the PQ on the 100 vs the 200 was different with the 100 being better. I think that what someone else mentioned was probably true; when the 100 came out it was for videophiles and they didn't skimp. As newer models came out (200 and 300) they probably took some shortcuts to maximize profit margins.

I now expect my HD Tivo to resemble my HD200 when it arrives tomorrow. I'm now used to it, and I'll also be getting calibrated later this month so that should help all images improve.

Doug

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Crash_Corrigan is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 02:27 AM
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Crash_Corrigan
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Just thinking out loud (or on the keyboard at least)...if the source changes (HD 100 replaced by HD Tivo), would the display need to be recalibrated to fine tune the PQ fo the new box? Maybe an ISF calibrator can give his/her option?

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HD Boyg is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 02:35 AM
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HD Boyg
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I noticed immediately that the picture quality on the HD Tivo was worse than my Zenith SAT520. I've had the HD Tivo since last wednesday, and I swear the gap is closing. The HD Tivo is looking better and better. I couldn't imagine the Mpeg decoder needs a break in period.

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daperlman is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 03:14 AM
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daperlman
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quote:
Originally posted by Paperboy2003

I now expect my HD Tivo to resemble my HD200 when it arrives tomorrow. I'm now used to it, and I'll also be getting calibrated later this month so that should help all images improve.

Doug

That is the switch I made, and I think it is comperable quality.

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RNZ is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 03:33 AM
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RNZ
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I had my new Panny phd6uy ISF calibrated with my Sony HD 100--spectacular. Then I just got the HD Tivo-disappointed in PQ. I called my ISF calibrator and want him to re-calibrate using the new HD Tivo. I'll report back.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 03:42 AM
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bkdtv
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quote:
Now is the HD300 made of lower quality HW than the HD200? I assume they were the same, but with a few more features. But I could be assuming wrong.
You are assuming wrong. Btw, Sony hasn't produced a DirecTV HD receiver of its own since the HD100. The HD200 was a relabeled version of the Zenith SAT520. The HD300 is a relabeled version of the LG 3200A.

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Mark Rubin is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 03:47 AM
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Mark Rubin
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I see it a little differently:

I have four HD100's: two have gone bad and two are still going strong (although they continue to reboot often)

The HD200's, to me, have the best PQ: so here is how I would rate them:

First place PQ: HD200/HD520
Second: HD300 (red push issues)
Third: HD Tivo
Forth: HD100

Based on component video output 1080i

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jehremy is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 04:14 AM
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jehremy
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I think the problem with these comparisons is you are critically judging the PQ of the new unit while you were just watching your old unit. Put your old unit back in and I think you will probably see that you can find flaws in the picture that you were just overlooking because you don't look critically while you just watch a show. That could explain why each generation of HD STB seems to degrade in quality.

I don't have the HD Tivo yet so I reserve the right to change my mind when I do.

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jfischer is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 04:35 AM
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jfischer
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quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
The conversion of MPEG data to picture data is mathematicaly fixed and unless the design engineers screwed up, they should all be the same.



Tell that to the people who buy $2,500 DVD players! Just like audio CD players aren't all the same in their analog outputs, neither are DVD players alike in their MPEG decoding and conversion. The same probably holds true for satellite receivers as well.

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jfischer is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 04:36 AM
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jfischer
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quote:
Originally posted by txfeinbergs
Guys, I am pretty sure there is a slight degradation of picture quality with the High Def Tivo because it has to compress the digital using an MPEG format


HDTV is already broadcast in MPEG format. The HD Tivo records the signal unmolested...

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chickenscratch is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 05:31 AM
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chickenscratch
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re: analog output

Well, if you draw a parallel with the audio guys, let me say this. Use the HDMI output and there is no analog component. Has anyone tried that?

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DoritoOfDeath is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 06:39 AM
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DoritoOfDeath
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All I know is I love the PQ with my new HDTivo. ESPNHD tonight for the hockey game was amazing.

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chuegen is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 06:44 AM
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chuegen
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For what it's worth, I've replaced my Sony SAT-HD100 with my HD TiVo and I see no difference side-by-side on HD picture quality. I've noted that the SD->1080i upconversion is not all that great when compared to the Sony's upconversion or the Mitsubishi WS-73909 displaying the 480i image, but that I can work around with the correct output format.

So, given that the picture isn't an issue for me, let's talk about the Sony SAT-HD100 for a moment. It's a *&*@#ing piece of (*@#&$. My SAT-HD100 rebooted no less than 4 times a week after hitting the guide button, due to memory leaks in the software. Sony had its hands on the thing 3 times and could not fix it. The picture-in-guide was slow and annoying. It didn't support OTA guide information. You couldn't preview HD while in the guide.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the TiVo and it was well worth the money. Major drawback: like other TiVos, the guide is very slow. When compared with my SA series 2, I really dream of having folders. But the capability to record HD programs is something I've wanted for a long, long time -- I've been tired of watching all my favorite programs in SD just because I couldn't see them live in HD. What an enabler!

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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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