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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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Robert Simandl is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 09:01 AM
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Robert Simandl
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Hey Chuegen,

I'll have to agree about the HD100 being an unreliable, constantly rebooting piece of crap before I sold it in early March. My Hd Tivo probably won't arrive for another month or so (I'm way down the VE order list).

I did get tired of not having HD so I bought an HTL-HD to tide me over til the Tivo arrives. The twice-an-hour audio dropouts are kind of annoying, but nowhere near as maddening as the HD100 reboots.

Still can't believe that HD100 got me $750 on eBay. I hope I'll agree with your picture quality assessment when my Tivo gets here.

__________________
Bob Simandl ... just outside of St. Louis

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JonR is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 09:28 AM
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JonR
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Sony HD100

I'll try to stay on topic but I purchased one of the first Sony HD100's in the Dayton area and it has performed beyond my expectations. My unit has NEVER re-booted from day one and the picture quality was / is much better than my new HD Tivo for what it's worth.

I did not perform a side by side comparison as it was rather obvious from the moment I turned it on. Saying that does not mean I dislike the HR10-250 it just means my Sony HD100 has a better picture (brighter, sharper with more detail...like looking through a glass window).

The HR10-250 excels in other areas such as time shifting which is why we all purchased the unit.

John

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aaronwt is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 12:10 PM
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aaronwt
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But has your TV been ISF calibrated to the HD-TiVo? Every year I get an ISF calibration to take care of the new equipment I have purchased. I've never had two pieces of equipment that produced an identical picture. It always needs to be tweaked one way or the other when integrated into a system.

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2 HR10-250(64 Hours)(WeaKnees configured drives)

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bloozeman is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 12:48 PM
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bloozeman
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quote:
Originally posted by aaronwt
But has your TV been ISF calibrated to the HD-TiVo? Every year I get an ISF calibration to take care of the new equipment I have purchased. I've never had two pieces of equipment that produced an identical picture. It always needs to be tweaked one way or the other when integrated into a system.


I'm a little confused by this, i.e, an ISF calibration of your display unit sets it as close to the D6500 color tempature as the display can possibly generate. Thus, the display is not necessarily calibrated to any one source, but rather to the best of it's abilities and if the source is limited then the limitations show. For instance on my calibrated set with my reference level DVD player the PQ is amazing but obviously my SD DishNetwork source can vary from amazing as well to leaving quite a bit to desire depending on the channel.

-Ray

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 01:19 PM
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bkdtv
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quote:
I'm a little confused by this, i.e, an ISF calibration of your display unit sets it as close to the D6500 color tempature as the display can possibly generate.
Calibration only sets that color temperature for the particular input and scan frequency. It also doesn't account for variances in STB or DVD hardware; your TV may be 6500k with one DVD player or STB, but 6000k with another.

It is now fairly common practice for ISF technicians to connect a signal generator to your HDTV receiver (much like you would connect an OTA antenna), and then use test patterns over 8-VSB to attain the optimal calibration using your particular HDTV receiver at whatever output format you use (be it 720p or 1080i).

As always, some ISF technicians are better than others, both in terms of skill and the equipment they have available.

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aaronwt is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 07:16 PM
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aaronwt
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The ISF calibrator can also fine tune for each source as well. That's why I have the ISF calibration done after buying new equipment. If you have iot calibrated before the new equipment, it won't be calibrated for that specific piece. I run most of my things through my H3D2 card. When there is a software upgrade it usually changes how the picture looks. So I just try to get it calibrated each year, and lenses cleaned etc, by an ISF tech so I can try to have the best picture possible from my set.

__________________
2 DSR704(107 Hours)(WeaKnees Quickview replacement drives)
2 HR10-250(64 Hours)(WeaKnees configured drives)

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Chaz3 is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 08:07 PM
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Chaz3
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Unhappy

My HD Tivo is not as sharp as the DST3000 it replaced. I am talking about HD programs. Not even close. You lose the "Wow" factor. Both using component connections, both at 1080i into a Mitsubishi 65" TV.
I don't buy into "have it calibrated to the new equpment." How is a calibration supposed to increase the sharpness? Even turning the sharpness all the way up on the TV does not make it as sharp as my old DST3000.
I even tried recording good quality HD programs and playing them back at 480p and then switching to 1080i. Almost no improvement at 1080i!! I don't know if it is just my unit, but something is wrong. Any suggestions please, I really want to keep the Tivo.

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bkdtv is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 08:17 PM
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bkdtv
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chaz,

quote:
I don't buy into "have it calibrated to the new equpment." How is a calibration supposed to increase the sharpness? Even turning the sharpness all the way up on the TV does not make it as sharp as my old DST3000.
The sharpness control has nothing to do with detail. The sharpness control just adds noise. Your sharpness control should be at its lowest setting, or close to it. A high sharpness setting makes HD and DVD pictures look much worse.

Calibration has everything to do with detail. Appropriate color temperature determines the "impact" of the colors. Appropriate black levels and convergence determine how much detail you see. There are three separate CRTs inside your television, and they have to be perfectly aligned to get the best picture. Here's an example:



An ISF calibration is needed to attain the best possible picture on a television, but the use of a DVD disk like AVIA can help you to make a significant improvement on your own. Have you used AVIA? Note AVIA may need to be used with an upscaling DVD player, as many newer televisions save separate settings for different resolutions.

Last edited by bkdtv on 05-10-2004 at 08:31 PM

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Starrbuck is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 08:21 PM
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Starrbuck
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaz3
My HD Tivo is not as sharp as the DST3000 it replaced.

Many people are saying that the newer generation HD receivers are all inferior to the older ones. I submit it's mostly in their imagination. The bottom line is that you may have to give up some of the picture quality but look at what you've gained in TiVo functionality. I'm glad this is my first HD receiver so I have nothing to compare it to. The HR10-250's HD looks wonderful on my Mits 55413.

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"AUTHENTIC HD DVR EARLY ADOPTER"
I adopted HR10-250 #21 from VE, received at 9:45am CDT on April 22, 2004

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patjoy is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 08:32 PM
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Most changes that I see are, and i can only talk from the analog side, black level changes with different devices. After i recaled the black level, i could see no differences in the various STBs I have. DTC-100, Zenith and now the HD TiVo. In all the cases the color temp remained the same and did not need to be tweaked. Only time I have had to do color temp cal is when I changed from RGB input to component. The HD TiVo looks just as good as my others did with no degradation in detail or color after reseting the black level. Such is the world of analog.

Pat

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Chaz3 is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 09:30 PM
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Chaz3
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BKDTV,

Yes I have calibrated with AVIA. The set is converged as well as I can converge it. I do understand how the sharpness control works, just illustrating how severe the problem is. The color temperature, saturation, etc does not seem to be the problem. It is a lack of detail. For example, Jay Lenos (or guest) eyes are not sharp. I find it hard to understand why 1080i does not look better than 480p.

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JonR is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 09:31 PM
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JonR
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Setting Black Level?

How do I adjust the white and black level? I know what to adjust on the TV, I'm interested in what source signal do I use and how to use it?

Thanks,
John

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Larry Hutchinson is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 09:40 PM
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Larry Hutchinson
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quote:
Tell that to the people who buy $2,500 DVD players!

You do NOT want to know my opinion on that!

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patjoy is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 10:00 PM
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patjoy
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Black and white levels are set using the brightness (black) and contrast (white) controls. It is best to use a reference disk like Avia or do it by eye. Reference is the best way. Adjusting the black is most important for getting good detail in the black area of the picture like in night scenes. White level if pushed to hard can destroy detail in some types of a displays. Setting proper levels of black and white level are the building blocks to a great picture. There are always variations of the black level that you see from network to network or channel to channel. I find that CBS bury the blacks on some shows like JAG. Discovery and HDNet seem to be right on all the time. Hope that answers your question.

Pat

Last edited by patjoy on 05-10-2004 at 11:51 PM

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clb is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 10:36 PM
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clb
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After living with the HDTivo for a few extra days I'm convinced that the PQ on the HDTivo is actually better than any of my old boxes (SAT-T60, Samsung TS160). However, the SD content now comes in over the DVI port on my TV as opposed to the component before. This could explain the improvement (there isn't any difference in the HD content and that has always come in through the DVI port).

Anyone who can't see a big improvement in 1080i content over 480p is having real problems with their set because the difference is huge for me. I also still see big differences across HD channels. The satellite HD channels are generally a bit softer than the OTA, with the PBS OTA content being generally the sharpest.

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david(dallas) is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 11:27 PM
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david(dallas)
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quote:
Originally posted by Starrbuck
Many people are saying that the newer generation HD receivers are all inferior to the older ones. I submit it's mostly in their imagination.


You shouldn't make comments like this, "we are imagining this PQ difference." Especially when you haven't seen an older generation. I feel sorry for you if this is your first experience HD.

As stated in an earlier posting, this HD has no "WOW" to it like our previous HD receivers. And it's not our imagination, it's what we see!!!

Best to speak from experience not from lack of it..

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alv is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 11:38 PM
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alv
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Black level is critical. Some boxes (like my old dish 6000) had the black level set improperly. Last time my ISF friend adjusted my set, he set it up for the dish 6000 but told me how to adjust it when the HD Tivo came. Doing so worked fine. Even small adjustments will change the amount of detail. Remember in doing this, wow is not automatically best - accuracy is.

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JonR is offline Old Post 05-10-2004 11:57 PM
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JonR
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quote:
Originally posted by patjoy
Black and white levels are set using the brightness (black) and contrast (white) controls. It is best to use a reference disk like Avia or do it by eye. Reference is the best way. Adjusting the black is most important for getting good detail in the black area of the picture like in night scenes. White level if pushed to hard can destroy detail in some types of a displays. Setting proper levels of black and white level are the building blocks to a great picture. There are always variations of the black level that you see from network to network or channel to channel. I find that CBS bury the blacks on some shows like JAG. Discovery and HDNet seem to be right on all the time. Hope that answers your question.

I understand 'how' to perform the adjustments the problem is "What source do I use?" (I have an Avia DVD that I used for the DVD player but the Tivo is totally different)

I've heard that some people record the HDnet test pattern which I could do but how do I set the black and white levels from this pattern. (Adjust black / gray bars ect.... also what do I use to adjust the white level on the HDnet pattern?

Thanks,
John

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Morris Herman is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 12:20 AM
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Morris Herman
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What is an ISF in the calibration context?

I am having DTV installed for the first time today using a DVR40 as a stand-in for a future HR10-250.

Is the installer required to calibrate in order to get best picture quality and does it have to be redone when I finally get the HD TiVo?

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CoreyMD is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 12:34 AM
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CoreyMD
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Seems to me that I can see more details on dark (black) areas of the HD picture. This is compared to my Samsung SIR-TS160 over DVI (TV is Samsung HLN-5065W DLP). The picture now appears to be brighter overall, with slightly less color saturation (maybe due to the brightness), but I don't *notice* any change in clarity or sharpness (except for SD channels, which are sharper and more colorful than with the TS160). I'll have to tweak the TV settings again when I have time - gotta remember to record that SMPTE pattern on HDNet, too.

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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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