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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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zaknafein is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 12:40 AM
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zaknafein
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Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Morris Herman
What is an ISF in the calibration context?

I am having DTV installed for the first time today using a DVR40 as a stand-in for a future HR10-250.

Is the installer required to calibrate in order to get best picture quality and does it have to be redone when I finally get the HD TiVo?



ISF is the Imaging Science Foundation. They train dealers to properly calibrate display equipment.

You can locate an ISF-certified dealer via their web site.

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Ken7 is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 12:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by groovy
I suspect that appropriately the HDTivo box is just not set overly sharp and overly brilliant, and that I can correct to higher sharpness and brilliance if I want, in my display device, which is where it actually should be calibrated.


This could be the issue indeed. As I reported early on when I first got my HD Tivo, I noted the PQ was simply not quite as sharp as on my HD200. However, by upping the sharpness of my plasma, I have pretty much taken care of almost all of the loss. So it could simply be how they dialed in the default output of the Tivo.

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Ken7 is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Can someone who has a DTV receiver capable of ATSC reception comment on how the HDTiVo and the standard receiver look tuned to an ATSC feed compare? (thus taking DTV out of the picture)


The differences in sharpness on the HD200 and the HD Tivo are the same whether you're watching DirecTV or OTA HD. In both cases the HD200 is sharper with the same settings on the display. Anyone bothered by this (like myself) should try raising the sharpness on your monitor's input that's handling the Tivo.

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Ken7 is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Rubin
I see it a little differently:

I have four HD100's: two have gone bad and two are still going strong (although they continue to reboot often)

The HD200's, to me, have the best PQ: so here is how I would rate them:

First place PQ: HD200/HD520
Second: HD300 (red push issues)
Third: HD Tivo
Forth: HD100

Based on component video output 1080i



Mark, I couldn't agree with you more. I too found the HD200 to be at the height of HD PQ. It took a bit of a slide with the HD300, which I returned when I saw the differences. The HD Tivo is definitely not as sharp, but with compensation from your display, you should be quite happy. With my Fujitsu P50 up about 5 clicks on shapness, it's pretty tough to tell the difference now....it wasn't before.

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PRMan is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:10 AM
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PRMan
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It seems like most people complaining are using Component instead of DVI.

Could this be a Component vs. DVI issue? If so, perhaps the TiVo isn't very good at DAC.

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Ken7 is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:22 AM
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Unfortunately not. The DVI output is also less sharp than the same output from the HD200.

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hongcho is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:27 AM
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Not that I was able to do direct comparison, but just my input.

I didn't notice much difference from DST-3000 (bought 2002) to HR10-250. Both using component video to a Panny ED plasma (42").

Hong.

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zaknafein is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:34 AM
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zaknafein
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken7
The differences in sharpness on the HD200 and the HD Tivo are the same whether you're watching DirecTV or OTA HD. In both cases the HD200 is sharper with the same settings on the display. Anyone bothered by this (like myself) should try raising the sharpness on your monitor's input that's handling the Tivo.


The sharpness should always be set to its lowest setting. Sharpness simply adds noise to the image. This noise doesn't have anything to do with the original image, and can make things significantly worse.

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cnixon is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 01:44 AM
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cnixon
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I finally received and installed a HD Tivo (Circuit City) and have also noticed a less sharp picture on my Fujitsu P50 compared with Sony HD200, Zenith HDR230, or Panasonic TU-DST51 tuners. Black level and color qualities are similar, but image is definitely softer on the Tivo via component or DVI. I was going to move the HD200 to my bedroom, but will keep it in the media room for surfing and viewing live TV.
Charles

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leedees is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 02:25 AM
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leedees
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Just installed the HD Tivo (CC).

I have done absolutely no tweaking of the display for the new HD Tivo.

Outputting 720p (native resolution of my Sanyo Z2 projector) via HDMI/DVI it appears that the 80" projected image is inferior (softer primarily) from the HD Tivo than the Sony HD100 it has replaced.

Tonight I will tweak the display to see if the spectacular Hi-Def images I experienced with the HD100 are possible. I also have a very high quality
HDMI-DVI cable that I will test to see if the Directv Tivo supplied cable is a factor.

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aaronwt is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 02:35 AM
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If it's like a DVD player, the sharpness could be addressed with a firmware upgrade.

When I recently upgraded the firmware on my SDI_RP82 player, the result was a picture that wasn't as sharp. the new firmware changed something with the output of the MPEG decoder. But this is one of the reasons I try to get an ISF calibration every year. To address changes that I have made in my system.

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Starrbuck is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 02:59 AM
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Starrbuck
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quote:
Originally posted by david(dallas)
You shouldn't make comments like this, "we are imagining this PQ difference." Especially when you haven't seen an older generation. I feel sorry for you if this is your first experience HD.

As stated in an earlier posting, this HD has no "WOW" to it like our previous HD receivers. And it's not our imagination, it's what we see!!!

Best to speak from experience not from lack of it..


David, I don't need you to feel sorry for me. I'm fine. I've seen other HD pictures and this looks just as good to me. Plenty of "WOW" going on here. My experiences have been from other posts I have read. I don't have to personally own everything to have an informed opinion on it. If you're not imagining it, it's likely that your set is not properly calibrated or you are just looking for something to complain about.

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robnalex is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 07:59 AM
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Just replaced my Sony HD-100 with my HR10-250 today and PQ appears every bit as good on the TiVo as on the HD-100. Plenty of WOW! And while I did not do a side by side comparison, my point of reference was pretty fresh having spent most of the morning looking at the HD-100 while adjusting my OTA antenna. BTW, my OTA signals are stronger and more stable on the TiVo than on the HD-100.

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Ken7 is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 08:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
The sharpness should always be set to its lowest setting. Sharpness simply adds noise to the image. This noise doesn't have anything to do with the original image, and can make things significantly worse.


Well, not in my case. It restored much of the detail that was lost relative to the HD200. However, after about 2 hours of further testing, there is unquestionably some detail that simply can not be restored on the Tivo even via the sharpness control. While watching Discovery HD, there were subtle details (both live and when I froze both the HD200 and the Tivo) that were there on the HD200 and missing on the HD Tivo. However, you really had to be close to the screen and concentrating on that piece of detail. Nonetheless it was there.

Additionally, it's very tough to make a gross generalization such as keeping your sharpness control at a minimum when there is such a tremendous variation in display devices. With some displays that may be true but with others it simply is not.

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fitsman is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 08:13 PM
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Now I did notice the difference, but I would not say it lost its WOW factor. I think the real good HD live programs like sports and HD net programs still look fantastic, but shows like CSI it just does not look quite as good. I did switch from RBGHV to component...I guess I will ask my ISF guy who did my TV if that matters.

FYI, the little bit of detail I lost, is well worth the value of having a HD Tivo. Just think what the poor SA Tivo guys put up with in order to have Tivo...The PQ quality on the SA is awful in my opinion.

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zaknafein is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 09:03 PM
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zaknafein
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken7
Well, not in my case. It restored much of the detail that was lost relative to the HD200. However, after about 2 hours of further testing, there is unquestionably some detail that simply can not be restored on the Tivo even via the sharpness control. While watching Discovery HD, there were subtle details (both live and when I froze both the HD200 and the Tivo) that were there on the HD200 and missing on the HD Tivo. However, you really had to be close to the screen and concentrating on that piece of detail. Nonetheless it was there.

Additionally, it's very tough to make a gross generalization such as keeping your sharpness control at a minimum when there is such a tremendous variation in display devices. With some displays that may be true but with others it simply is not.



Have you ever calibrated your monitor with Digital Video Essentials or Avia?

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Weez is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 11:13 PM
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Weez
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Last night i had the chance to hookup my hd100 and my hd10-250 they were both run thru my denon avr2803 both using component, I could not view them side by side but was able to switch from one to the other and yes there was a difference (HD100 was slightly sharper) but by no means was it great vs. terrible more like great vs. a little less great but head and shoulders above a standard S2 dtivo/normal ird. While the cost of these units is fairly large its money well spent imo, others im sure will feel different but I wouldnt trade my HD-Dtivo or sell it because of the (slightly less great) picture quality. In fact i bought another one.

Last edited by Weez on 05-11-2004 at 11:55 PM

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wilson is offline Old Post 05-11-2004 11:37 PM
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There's a remote chance that they loaded their MPEG decoder with some wrong coefficients but you'd think that they did some pattern tests. Another remote possibility is the 0-255 vs. 16-235 level issue. Note: my comment applies mostly to HDMI/DVI output; component out just has too many factors involved.

Last edited by wilson on 05-11-2004 at 11:44 PM

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Chaz3 is offline Old Post 05-12-2004 12:04 AM
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Starrbuck,

Quote "If you're not imagining it, it's likely that your set is not properly calibrated or you are just looking for something to complain about."

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not just looking for something to complain about and I am not imagining it. No amount of calibration is going to fix the problem I am seeing. My HD Tivo is soft, period. I was an early convert to hdtv so I am not new to this.
I went from "WOW" HD picture quality with the old Toshiba STB to "what the heck happened" with the HD Tivo. I thought better resolution of detail was the main point of HDTV.

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camcollect is offline Old Post 05-12-2004 12:12 AM
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camcollect
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quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Have you ever calibrated your monitor with Digital Video Essentials or Avia?


Of the two, which would you reccomend?

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>>> My 1st generation Sony HD 100 has better PQ than my new HD Tivo. <<<

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