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>>> Overscan, make it stop! :( <<<

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videojanitor is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 12:14 AM
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videojanitor
TV Engineering Guy

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Northern California
Posts: 175

Joe ...

The whole concept of overscan started back at the beginning of television -- because of limitations of the production equipment at the time, the picture often shifted one way or the other, so if you displayed the entire actuve picture, the viewer might see black bars on one or more sides of screen, and it might change depending on the scene (ie: one camera might have black on one side, while another has it on the opposite). The best way to counter this was to overscan the TV, this pushing this stuff off into an invisible area.

Another reason was that early sets had very poor power supply regulation, and the size of the picture would change as a function of amount of illumination. So, overscan "eliminated" this problem as well.

These days though, there really is very little need for overscan. As you can see, re-sizing your set really has no negative consequences, so I am at a loss to explain why manufacturers still insist on the immense amount of overscan. A little bit I can see, just to keep junk at the edge from coming into view, but certainly not 5%+ --- that's nuts.

Anyway, glad my instructions helped you recalibrate your set!

--Bill R.

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Frank_M is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 12:18 AM
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Frank_M
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Posts: 229

I noticed it too, on my Sony Wega32. I think I'd adjust to it if I left it alone.. but then I switched from 480i to 480p... and that eliminated it.

I know that SD programing is at 480i... but I thought it looked better with the upconvert and it eliminated the overscan.

Don't know if that helps you, but take a look at it and see what you think.

With most resolution / sizing issues, there are not "right" and 'wrong" answers... it's all about what YOU like.

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mstahlkr is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 02:24 AM
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mstahlkr
Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 61

quote:
Originally posted by jrock
It's just amazing how much of the picture was missing, I can't believe they would ship the TV with that much over scan. Is there a reason for this?

Thanks for the info!

-Joe



I seem to recall reading somewhere that part of the original NTSC spec (or something like that) required that there not be any black around any parts of the screen. In other words, overscan was required.

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Larry Hutchinson is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 03:07 AM
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Larry Hutchinson
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Beaverton,OR
Posts: 90

quote:
A little bit I can see, just to keep junk at the edge from coming into view, but certainly not 5%+ --- that's nuts.


You think 5% is nuts. My Pioneer Elite 610 runs at about 12% -- and the Elite is not cheap. Unfortunately it is apparently very difficult to reduce overscan on the Elite line.

BTW, there need be no overscan at all with a digital broadcast -- every pixel is designed to be seen.

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dropper is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 03:11 AM
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dropper
UTV Zealot

Registered: Jan 2004
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Just ordered a $21 manual for my Toshiba 53H71. Couldn't find any info on the web (or AVS) on adjusting it. And since I am thick, I should be able to give it a whirl.

Keith

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Iceblade is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 03:14 AM
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Iceblade
New Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Missouri City, TX
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Hey Keith,

Not sure if you are a paid member over at www.hometheaterspot.com, but supposedly they have a decent amount of "tweaks" accessible only to paid members. Personally, I am loathe to pay them any money before I KNOW that they have useful info for my particular equipment... mainly a Sony KV36HS510 and a Samsung HLN617W v214 DLP. Perhaps a paid member over there will read this and answer whether or not they have any specific info to you 53H71? Good luck with the adjustments!

Regs,
Jeff

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buckeye1010 is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 03:52 AM
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buckeye1010
Very Special Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 423

My Overscan Numbers

Sorry for cross-posting, please yell at me, if this isn't cool.

2 weeks ago, I had my 2003 Mits 65" Platinum Plus (65611) ISF'd by Chad Billheimer. He calibrated all the inputs for 4% overscan +/- 1% all the way around. (I can verify that the DVD 480p input shows this with Avia, at least - but I have 100% confidence that he did it correctly on all inputs).

With the HDNet test pattern, the HR10-250 using component outputs to the HD input on my Mits (no DVI available) yields these numbers:

L: 10%
R: 10.25%
T: 5.5%
B: 8%

I want to have Chad out again to tweak to my HD Tivo input, but do we yet know the accuracy of the HDNet patterns? Does HBO HD still have test patterns? (but I think I read the patterns were not ideal for ATSC?). Is there a chance that D* will automatically fix any problems like this with auto downloads?

My picture does look a bit soft compared to my built in ATSC OTA tuner - but overall, everything is quite acceptable to me, except for the audio drop out problem with HDNet.

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vstone is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 06:58 PM
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vstone
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Location: Martinsville, VA
Posts: 212

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
Most CRT televisions have 5-7% overscan, as configured at the factory.

Newer digital televisions (LCD, LCOS, DLP, plasma) have closer to 0% overscan, when a DVI/HDMI connection is used. A few models have ~2% preset.



My Panny 42" EDTV overscans, but am baffled why a discrete display device would do so. I'm sure there must be a good reason for the programmers to go out of their way to do this. Perhaps it's the same code that runs some tube based displays.

I think it overscans because the top and bottom show no black bars when displaying 1:85 movies.

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vstone is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 07:04 PM
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vstone
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Location: Martinsville, VA
Posts: 212

quote:
Originally posted by videojanitor
Joe ...

The whole concept of overscan started back at the beginning of television -- because of limitations of the production equipment at the time, the picture often shifted one way or the other, so if you displayed the entire actuve picture, the viewer might see black bars on one or more sides of screen, and it might change depending on the scene (ie: one camera might have black on one side, while another has it on the opposite). The best way to counter this was to overscan the TV, this pushing this stuff off into an invisible area.

Another reason was that early sets had very poor power supply regulation, and the size of the picture would change as a function of amount of illumination. So, overscan "eliminated" this problem as well.

These days though, there really is very little need for overscan. As you can see, re-sizing your set really has no negative consequences, so I am at a loss to explain why manufacturers still insist on the immense amount of overscan. A little bit I can see, just to keep junk at the edge from coming into view, but certainly not 5%+ --- that's nuts.

Anyway, glad my instructions helped you recalibrate your set!

--Bill R.


I think there is (or was) an issue of the picture shrinking as the set got older.

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grins is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 08:22 PM
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grins
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Libertyville, IL, USA
Posts: 428

Hi Buckeye!

What did Chad use to set up the component input for 1080i? Did he have a signal generator?

btwyx, did you say you were using the DVI output of the HDTiVo to see essentially matching overscans between your DVHS and the HDTiVo?

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borghe is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 09:16 PM
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borghe
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Registered: Jun 2002
Location:
Posts: 412

ok, I finally got a chance to look at the HDNet pattern...

I SERIOUSLY have to question that pattern. here is what I find on my tv.. note this is switching between 480p and 1080i. Also note that some of this is the oddity in my TV, which I have remarked where applicable.

Going between 480p (which calibrated with my DVD playewr is spot on at 5% overscan) and 1080i, the Tivo shows the vertical overscan to be set at 5% according to the HDNet test pattern. This is confirmed by switching back and forth between 480p, which I KNOW is set at 5% and 1080i. They are showing for all intents the same overscan (though 1080i seems to be shifted down ~1% which could very well be my TV, i.e. above show slightly less than 5%, below shows slightly more than 5%). So vertically there is no question that MY Tivo is right where it should be..

Now horizontal is interesting... very interesting. at 1080i my TV is showing 12% overscan.. which is insane... I mean seriously, WTF!?!?! But here is the clincher, at 480p, my set is also showing around 12%. Again my set is shifting the image slightly horizontally between 1080i and 480p (in this case to the left by about closer to 1.5-2%), but the actual width appears to be the same (the shift appears uniform in the same direction on both sides).

MY conclusion? There is definitely something amiss.. However, I am still not going to say it is the Tivo...

to help out, can someone tell me the next time the patterns are going to be on HDNet? Just for this test, I will resubscribe my E86 just long enough to check the pattern and see where it sets up on my TV.. If I see the pattern on my E86 at 12% as well, the problem squarely rests on the HDNet pattern.. if I see the pattern on the E86 come in at 5% (seen as though my HD and 480p inputs seem to be fairly in line with each other), then it is obviously the Tivo..

I will let you guys know.

I also have the pattern saved on my box and will take it into the bedroom this weeekend and check it out on my 32" sony where I know overscan is also dialed in around 5% all around.

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PJO1966 is offline Old Post 05-13-2004 09:19 PM
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PJO1966
New & CURRENT Avatar

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 901

My theory is that it is the TiVo. If I look at my Series 1 To Do list, it has the annoying banner about acquiring guide info. The bottom line of this is cut off. My friend also has a Series 1 with the same message, but a completely different TV. The bottom line is also cut off on his. It's not exactly scientific, but it just seems like more than a coincidence.

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jrock is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 02:16 AM
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jrock
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 424

quote:
Originally posted by videojanitor
Press the "1" or "4" key on the remote. The items will begin to change. Keep pressing until you see MID1 as the mode to be adjusted -- this will ensure your adjustments only affect 1080i signals. Once MID1 appears, you have a variety of possible things to adjust -- those appear underneath as displayed in the photo. These are the adjustments you are looking for:



Do you know what controls Video 1? I use Video 1 with Svideo from my HDVR2 and always keep it in Full mode. On the left of the screen there is a 1 pixel vertical line that is a different shade. You can only really notice it some of the time but if you look for it you can always see it there.

-Joe

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videojanitor is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 03:12 AM
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videojanitor
TV Engineering Guy

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Northern California
Posts: 175

Joe,

Since VIDEO 1 only accepts 480i signals, the adjustments you want will be under the MID2 category. If you're only trying to get rid of one-pixel of extraneous material, you're not going to need to adjust it much -- just one press of "3" or "4" should do it.

--Bill R.

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jrock is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 04:53 AM
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jrock
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 424

Thanks that worked. It was 3 or 4 pixels from the edge of the screen so I ended up having to do 4 or 5 moves on the MDHP then the same for MDHS on MID2 but now it's much better. I also changed the OPHDPT from 1 to 0 because I had noticed this rolling scan line on 1080i modes and someone on another thread pointed me to an AVS forum explaining how to change it. Are you familiar with this? Over there they had some Sony Bulletin for repair personnel and it said to change that then go in to a bunch of other settings because it changes the contrast or brightness levels also? I just changed the 1 to a 0 and the rolling scan stopped and it looks ok to me so I didn't bother to try and find all the other list of changes to make. Should that be ok or are the other settings important? Also it said make sure you are on the RF input. I only use Video 1 - 5 and don't use the antenna input so I did it on Video 1. If you aren't familiar with that change don't worry about it.

Thanks.

-Joe

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MNTivoGuy is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 05:57 AM
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MNTivoGuy
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Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 207

VideoJanitor:

thanks for the step by step instructions!! I have the same TV as you (910) and an HDTivo. I set my TV per your instructions but not sure it is where it should be. Any chance you might be able to tell me your settings for the four items to be changed? I am sure they are more accurate then mine! Again, thanks so much. I used the HD Net patters, and am close to "4" all around.

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videojanitor is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 01:57 PM
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videojanitor
TV Engineering Guy

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Northern California
Posts: 175

quote:
Originally posted by MNTivoGuy
Any chance you might be able to tell me your settings for the four items to be changed?


Sure enough. Below are my settings, though I don't really know if they can be transported from one set to another. That is, there may be so many other variables as far as how the set was manufacturered, that the numbers from one set might be total garbage on another. That said, here's what I've got (all for the MID1 parameter):

MDVS = 127
MDVP = 19
MDHS = 224
MDHP = 31

--Bill R.

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buckeye1010 is offline Old Post 05-14-2004 03:55 PM
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buckeye1010
Very Special Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 423

quote:
Originally posted by grins
Hi Buckeye!

What did Chad use to set up the component input for 1080i? Did he have a signal generator?




Yep, he used the Accupel HDG-2000 High Definition pattern generator.

I still need to hook up the DVD/Avia through the HD Component inputs, to see if it still shows 4% - I bet it will.

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Monitor: 65" Mitsubishi 65611 - ISF'd | Receiver: Yamaha 5590 | Speakers: Polk RM7300 | DVD: Panasonic CP-72 | Sony SAT-T60 (280GB & Cachecard) | "Hughes" HR10-250 (550GB) | VHS: JVC SVHS | Plus a bunch of old stuff dating back to 1918

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jrock is offline Old Post 05-18-2004 07:12 PM
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jrock
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Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 424

Hummm.. I got the test pattern from HDNet this morning. I go to try and adjust the overscan and nothing will change, when I move the MDVS, VP, HS, HP for MID1 it doesn't even make a change. Last week I did the OP HDPT mod from 1 to 0 to stop the scrolling white scan line that the Sony has from the HD TiVo. It was supposed to lock it at the frequency of the incoming STB instead of using the TV's frequency. I noticed a day or two after I did that change that my SD picture size had reset also because it had a white line on the very left vertical pixel that I had to push off the screen and also the scrolling bar was back so it seemed all my changes got reverted some how. So I re adjusted all that and figured I would wait for the HDNet pattern to redo the 1080i. But now it seems with the Scan line fix you can no longer adjust over scan unless whatever happened a day after I made the HDPT change and reset everything messed that up too. I'm not sure what to do now. Fix overscan or fix the rolling white scan line. Ahh! I want both. I think for $2k I should be able to have it perfect. I only purchased the set last October. I wonder if I should reset everything to the factory settings and call for a warranty tech to come adjust it and tell him what I want and show him the problems. Also when I have 480i on the DVI the left side of the screen near the very edge seems to be bowed. Anyone know where you would call to have a service tech like this come out under warranty?

-Joe

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iNerd is offline Old Post 05-22-2004 09:35 AM
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iNerd
HDTV Complainer

Registered: May 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 54

Looks like this modification changes all inputs, or at least both of my component inputs, I was watching a DVD and noticed that the overscanning was different then it used to be I then entered the service menu and confirmed my suspicion. Oh well, anybody know how to do this for just one input?

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>>> Overscan, make it stop! :( <<<

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