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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-05-2004 10:03 PM
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Bigg
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HD locals....
The problem with the delivery of the hd netowrks is not DirecTV's system or bandwith or compression codec (mpeg-4DIVX woould be nice but...), but with the very laws of the federal government. Currently, just about all Canadians are in an area in which they can get our cbs/nbc/abc/fox is HDTV via expressvu. Their government allows distribution of the same HD channel to everyone. There are two distinct models, and people want the best of both, which if it is even technically possible would cost DirecTV hundreds of millions of dollars. Either people need to be happy with OTA signals from local affiliates, the way it has been for 60 years, or be happy with the government changing the laws and evyone getting wcbs/kcbs. Also, if you cannot get a grade B signal, do the loser pays signal test, and then they have to give you a waiver for the national hdtv feed. Locals in general are a waste of bandwith, who needs their locals. They should just be allowed to get NYC/chicago/denver/atlanta/LA locals. Also, the federal government needs to allow neighbor dma locals, like here in hartford-new haven we would have to get locals from cable b/c they come from New York, and not our own DMA. For those who cannot get a signal b/c their landlord won't allow them to mount an antenna, cable often offers thses witha DVR for $20/mo if you need them that badly. Fiber optic lines to every residence in the US is the real answer... I do like the idea of computer streaming though...

PS: What is on WB and UPN that is so facinating it causes people to get a-la-carte from dish? I get the nyc channels that are is dish's superstation package and never watch them.
PPS: NESN HD would be neat as it is not available ota...

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 06-05-2004 11:50 PM
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JimSpence
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UPN has Enterprise and used to have Buffy the Vampire Slayer. WB has Smallville, Angel (now done), and Charmed. There are others that may interest you.

No flaming allowed on my selection of shows.

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Sony SAT T60 (146 hrs), DSR6000, HTL-HD HD receiver, DVDR985 - DVD recorder, URC-6131 Universal Remote
DirecTV since '96, Dish Network for superstations (WB/UPN) only
Waivers for all four nets are in place.
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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 12:18 AM
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Don't worry, I won't flame since you're not one of those lazy people who complains about it, and does nothing about it. Also, I can't as I basically have no clue what any of it is. You can use a P3 or paratodos dish for dishnet a-la-carte w/o locals right? Just looked at a map. Yep, those are some rather large mountains in the way of you getting the NYC stations OTA. Do you have an SA TIVo or a DishDVR for the superstations?

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 05:31 AM
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You will see in my signature that I do indeed subscribe to the Dish Superstation package. I use my Phase III dish to get them. I put a 22kHz signal generator on the line feeding the Dish 301 receiver so that it locks onto the 119 satellite. WB and UPN come in fine. I use my Philips DVD recorder to time shift them.

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Jim
Sony SAT T60 (146 hrs), DSR6000, HTL-HD HD receiver, DVDR985 - DVD recorder, URC-6131 Universal Remote
DirecTV since '96, Dish Network for superstations (WB/UPN) only
Waivers for all four nets are in place.
I'm suspicious of newbies, but tolerant!
And, just because I have a bunch of posts doesn't mean I'm always right.
Add 1231 for accurate post count.

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MichaelK is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 05:57 AM
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MichaelK
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigg
HD locals....
The problem with the delivery of the hd networks is not DirecTV's system or bandwidth or compression codec (mpeg-4DIVX woould be nice but...), but with the very laws of the federal government. Currently, just about all Canadians are in an area in which they can get our cbs/nbc/abc/fox is HDTV via expressvu. Their government allows distribution of the same HD channel to everyone. There are two distinct models, and people want the best of both, which if it is even technically possible would cost DirecTV hundreds of millions of dollars. Either people need to be happy with OTA signals from local affiliates, the way it has been for 60 years, or be happy with the government changing the laws and evyone getting wcbs/kcbs. Also, if you cannot get a grade B signal, do the loser pays signal test, and then they have to give you a waiver for the national hdtv feed. Locals in general are a waste of bandwith, who needs their locals. They should just be allowed to get NYC/chicago/denver/atlanta/LA locals. Also, the federal government needs to allow neighbor dma locals, like here in hartford-new haven we would have to get locals from cable b/c they come from New York, and not our own DMA. For those who cannot get a signal b/c their landlord won't allow them to mount an antenna, cable often offers thses witha DVR for $20/mo if you need them that badly. Fiber optic lines to every residence in the US is the real answer... I do like the idea of computer streaming though...

PS: What is on WB and UPN that is so facinating it causes people to get a-la-carte from dish? I get the nyc channels that are is dish's superstation package and never watch them.
PPS: NESN HD would be neat as it is not available ota...




Bigg- under the current system and the 'new' bandwidth on from 7s you are correct.

But it seems that within the next year D* will deploy the first of its spaceway satellites- they are new technology- Ka band unlike the current ku. And also have crazy spot beam technology- I think it uses phased array antennas which IIRC are basically panels that can be changed essentially by software into almost infinite configurations for spot beams.

anyhow the end result is HD LIL's are looking to be a reality in the next year or two for at least the top 30 markets (which covers more than 50% of the population) and technically there is no reason that they couldnt provide HD LIL's for basically every existing station with the 2 satellites they have ordered that will be delivered in the next year or so. (they also have commited to buying a ground spare)

all this without taking any bandwidth away from the current system- and potentially allowing for more conus capacity for other new HD offerings.

see avs forum link

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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 06:43 PM
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Bigg
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I should hope that they keep all of the CONUS HD content (not including CBS HD) on the current sats or at the new 72.5 (all CONUS) position, so people who are currently invested in HD equipment won't have to get new dishes, LNBs, or recs, other than another dlnb dish and multiswitch should they use DirecTV5 for HD content. Thus only the ones in bigtime DNS territory or the ones that are lazy will. Who needs HD locals of the networks can get blanket wiavers for HD feeds from NYC/LA/Denver/Chicago? Do the networks have the power to say "all waivers will be granted or ou are not our affiliate anymore"? I assume not, because they would have done this already if they had the power to do so. And there would be plenty of space out at 72.5. Also, they could use another canadian slot on the west side of the three main american slots. Don't they have like two extra sats @ 101W?

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 08:14 PM
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It doesn't matter how many sats are actually in orbit at 101, there are only 32 transponders that can be used at that slot.

If the Spaceway sats are going to be used, then DirecTV will have to supply the receivers to get the Ka band signals. And, what about TiVo?

Allowing waivers for the network feeds of HD seems to be the best way to get HD delivered.

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Sony SAT T60 (146 hrs), DSR6000, HTL-HD HD receiver, DVDR985 - DVD recorder, URC-6131 Universal Remote
DirecTV since '96, Dish Network for superstations (WB/UPN) only
Waivers for all four nets are in place.
I'm suspicious of newbies, but tolerant!
And, just because I have a bunch of posts doesn't mean I'm always right.
Add 1231 for accurate post count.

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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 08:34 PM
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What I am saying is that thay have two extras that could be moved to leased Canadian space west of the three mian US slots. Then more locals/HD nets could be offered. I though that the upgrade to ka could be dine with a switch/lnb. If you need new recs, will direcTV give out new HR10-250s that can "see" ka band? With the sat @ 72.5 and the three sats they have enough bandwith for east/west feeds in HD now. They could have the big4+PBS for NYC/Atlanta/Chicago/LA/Denver on 72.5 and then use all of the space on 6 and 7 for other hdtv/international. Is Jade on 6 to fill up the rest of the tps that have space, but not enough for HD?
PS: When will D* get FCC approval for 5 to move to 72.5 and start offering locals/possibly HD?
PPS: If D* went to a better codec for HDTV only, would the HR10-250 be able to have a new decoder board soldered in, or would they and up as OTA HD TiVOs?

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 10:40 PM
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JimSpence
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If they start using the 72.5 slot, then how will it be integrated with 101? 110/119? Too many questions that we can't answer.

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Jim
Sony SAT T60 (146 hrs), DSR6000, HTL-HD HD receiver, DVDR985 - DVD recorder, URC-6131 Universal Remote
DirecTV since '96, Dish Network for superstations (WB/UPN) only
Waivers for all four nets are in place.
I'm suspicious of newbies, but tolerant!
And, just because I have a bunch of posts doesn't mean I'm always right.
Add 1231 for accurate post count.

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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-06-2004 11:31 PM
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We know they will pending FCC approval. New 6x multi, 18" dish in addition to a P3, but any rec that is halfway new will be fine with it.

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Fluffybear is offline Old Post 06-07-2004 08:06 PM
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Fluffybear
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quote:
Originally posted by JimSpence
You will see in my signature that I do indeed subscribe to the Dish Superstation package. I use my Phase III dish to get them. I put a 22kHz signal generator on the line feeding the Dish 301 receiver so that it locks onto the 119 satellite. WB and UPN come in fine. I use my Philips DVD recorder to time shift them.


I am interested in the way you have set this up.

Are you feeding the Dish 301 off your multi-switch with the signal generator in between the two or did you split the signal before it gets to the multi-switch?

If I understand this correctly, you can not see anything off of 110 for Dish Network? Do you see anything off of 121?

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Last edited by Fluffybear on 06-07-2004 at 11:23 PM

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MichaelK is offline Old Post 06-07-2004 09:52 PM
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MichaelK
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigg
We know they will pending FCC approval. New 6x multi, 18" dish in addition to a P3, but any rec that is halfway new will be fine with it.


for 72.5 I'm not even sure you will need a new multiswtich. It would depend on how many tp's they get to use. Bascially 110 and 119 right now get combined hardware wise (a special combiner is in the lnb to feed both onto a single pair of wires just like the 101 sat uses a singel pair of wires for itself) to act hardwarewise like just 2 satellites- the software in the boxes know which thransponders come from whcih sats and decieds to call things sat a, b, or c. Anyhow- theres no reason that another combiner couldnt be used to combine 72.5 into the pair of wires already used for 110&119.

for example 119 uses 22 to 32. 110 uses just 28,30 &32. Somehow 28,30, and 32 from 110 are coverted to look like lowed TP's and combined into the 119 signal- so maybe they make them look like 2,4, & 6. THen they could take transponders 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 &21 from the 72.5 and just splice that into the 119 wires also. THe software in the boxes might need to know it happened but even that i'm not so sure- what soes it matter besides dish pointing which sat the signal comes from- the box just needs to know which wire to ask for- even or odd, first pair or second. Without much thought they can easily combine another 10 or 11 transponders- more if they got real fancy. they could conceivably get up to 18 transponders to use and still just use 2 sets of 2 wires. I doubt the candians would give them much more than that- that's already more than half the 32 tp's allowed at 72.5

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MichaelK is offline Old Post 06-07-2004 09:59 PM
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MichaelK
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigg
I should hope that they keep all of the CONUS HD content (not including CBS HD) on the current sats or at the new 72.5 (all CONUS) position, so people who are currently invested in HD equipment won't have to get new dishes, LNBs, or recs, other than another dlnb dish and multiswitch should they use DirecTV5 for HD content. .....


I would think thats probably- but not even necessary. HD customers are clearly the minority- i would maek a WAG that there are only maybe a million of them (anyone feel free to correct that).

D* has already said they plan to spend a boatload on box swaps- i think on AVS I read ONE BILLION DOLLARS was the amount. Anyhow, one possibility for doing a box swap is to do the reletively small amount of current HD customers and then force all new HD customers to the new hardware. THat would give older people an incentive to change on their own as more and more upgrade to hdtv. So they might just luanch the Ka birds and then send out installers to all the HD customers the next few months in order to set them up to get Ku and KA birds allowing for HD LIL's and a boat load of new HD content. All conjecture but a posibility. Also I have read a few posts alluding to the fact that more recent boizes are cabable of getting information from something like 256 different sats- the lnb's or multiswitches would need to get swapped but the boxes themselves could handle it. I havent really seen an explanation of that or info on if the HD Tivo has that technology but "one never knows do one?"

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JimSpence is offline Old Post 06-07-2004 11:44 PM
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JimSpence
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quote:
Originally posted by Fluffybear
I am interested in the way you have set this up.

Are you feeding the Dish 301 off your multi-switch with the signal generator in between the two or did you split the signal before it gets to the multi-switch?

If I understand this correctly, you can not see anything off of 110 for Dish Network? Do you see anything off of 121?


I discovered that the WB and UPN Superstation package is on TP 15 of the 119 sat. I had a separate round dish that I pointed at 119 and all was well. The 101 dish went to my 5x4 switch. The 119 dish first went to a 3x4 switch which fed the Dish receiver and the 119 inputs of the 5x4 switch. I then got the oval dish that replaced my two dish setup. So I got a 22kHz generator that I connected between the new 4x8 switch and the Dish receiver. With this setup I lost the interactive weather channel from dish. The 110/119 arrangement of the oval dish blocks out a few Ts from 119. But, all I need is TP15. Nothing from 121. I haven't really looked to see what else I can get. Probably not much since I don't subscribe to anything but the Superstation pack.

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Sony SAT T60 (146 hrs), DSR6000, HTL-HD HD receiver, DVDR985 - DVD recorder, URC-6131 Universal Remote
DirecTV since '96, Dish Network for superstations (WB/UPN) only
Waivers for all four nets are in place.
I'm suspicious of newbies, but tolerant!
And, just because I have a bunch of posts doesn't mean I'm always right.
Add 1231 for accurate post count.

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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 01:48 AM
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Bigg
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Heres my proposal:

license all 32 CONUS tps @ 72.5 from Bellsat Canada

1. Get rid of CBSHD and FOXED on CONUS 101

2. Add CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX/PBS HDTV on 72.5 sat.

3. Add the sdtv sho/hbo/starz/cine channels that DirecTV doesn't have now in place of cbs/foxhd on CONUS101.

4. Add TNTHD, BravoHD, INHD, INHD2 (well maybe not, as I hear that they are owned by the cablecos but hopefully some law protects that), StarzHD, CINEHD and TMCHD on 72.5.

5. Add Chicago/Atlanta/Denver/Seattle/Boston/Philly/Detroit HD locals on 72.5 if the bandwith was there to support it.

6. Add more dumb sd locals for DTiVo users.

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chicagogreg773 is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 02:30 AM
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chicagogreg773
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i'd like to see:

1. mlb extra innings
2. other sports
3. wgn, tbs, tnt
4. cnn when it's avail
5. locals (not a priority since i can get them ota, but a backup would be nice)

greg

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spectecjr is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 02:40 AM
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spectecjr
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quote:
Originally posted by joker454
Come setup my antenna then. After going thru 7 different antennas (all professionally installed) I still can't get OTA reliably. The strongest signal I have *ever* pulled is with antenna setup #7, which is currently a Channel Master 4228 mounted 6 feet above my peak roofline, and Channel Master 7775 amp. It's the most obnoxious looking setup you can imagine, neighbors from blocks away can see it and have come by to ask me what its for. In the end, it gives me a whopping 40-50 signal stength on CBS, 25-35 on NBC, and 35-40 on ABC, and thats on a *good* day. The numbers are usually less than that. So basically, all unwatcheable. And I'm only 10 miles from the towers.


... and what's more, KIRO (the local CBS station) won't give waivers even though it's impossible in that location to get a signal without the above setup - which can't be done in an apartment complex.

Bastards.

(I'm in the same situation).

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Coastsider is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 04:06 AM
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Coastsider
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quote:
Originally posted by freff
NO LOCALS! Why waste bandwidth on locals that you can get unmolested via a simple antenna? If you have trouble, then hire a professional to set it up for you.


Because some of us poor souls can't get anything OTA. I live in an area where there is nary a TV antenna to be found - anywhere - due to there being a mountain between us and the closest (25 miles) transmitter site.

I'll settle for L.A. NBC and ABC HD feeds such as I currently get with CBS. That's not asking too much of the available bandwith, is it?

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Bigg is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 04:16 AM
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RSNa would be nice in HDTV. Like YES and NESN. (I support two teams, the Red Sox and whoever beats the Yankees).

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fizbin is offline Old Post 06-17-2004 07:13 AM
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Just my opinion, but we should be able to get access to all local, network and 'cable' stations through one device. For some that might be cable, for me it would be nice if it was a dish.

For many the OTA argument is self-serving. I get everything but NBC off of a Silver Sensor sitting in a footlocker. On the other hand, lots of folks around the country will get nothing OTA no matter what antenna they use. And don't folks see the irony that to get to HD we are going back to outdoor antennas that make our homes look like a snapshot from the 1960's?

I want it all, and I want it on the HD TiVo. No cable, no OTA, no compromised PQ. Now the question is, what does DirecTV have to do to make this so, and when are they going to do it??

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