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>>> HMO is now set to be free, second Tivos in a house $6.95/month... <<<

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TivoFan is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 09:29 AM
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TivoFan
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Registered: Feb 2000
Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posts: 240

quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
somewhat - I doubt it was as dramatic as HMO or leave but it is just too coincidental that he leaves they day before these anouncements are made.


It doesn't have to necessarily be coincidental or follow your explanation. It could very well have been that Tivo, when it found out about the DirectTV news, wanted to offset the bad publicity and speculation. So they rushed to put together something that they could boast about and that would distract from the rumor that DirectTV might be going with the a competing DVR.

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rogo is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 10:49 AM
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rogo
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Be angry. It achieves a lot.

You sure you ain't being thrown a bone?

You sure you want a Windows PC instead of your Tivo? I doubt you do.

Oh, and that Windows PC is routinely "devalued". Intel's $800 chip from last year is about $100 now! Scandalous!

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Cubfan is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 06:09 PM
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Cubfan
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Yet another sign of a dying company. A little too late to stop the bleeding, IMO.

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DrStrange is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 06:39 PM
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DrStrange
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And Replay fans ought to know a thing or two about dying companies by now.

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sublime is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 07:16 PM
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sublime
Cynic.

Registered: Sep 2003
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Cubfan, I can only assume you mean DirecTV is dying. After all, they're the ones having the firesale of all non-core assests in an attempt to alleviate their 2.6 billion dollar debt.

eao, you must not have read too much here. TiVo gave a free trail for HMO for the past 30 days. Nobody has been able to purchase it for that long since they took down that option from the website at the same time they made it a free trail. Nobody went in last week and paid full price. Nobody paid full price the week before. Nobody paid anything for HMO for the past 30 days. So how, exactly, were people screwed on this? By being early adopters who felt the service was worth whatever they paid for it, be it $49 or $99? Right. If they didn't feel it was worth it, they wouldn't have paid it. I felt the feature set worthy of the price I paid, as did each and every other person who paid for it. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Those that did buy it, try it, and decide it wasn't enough bang for their buck, had 30 days to change their minds. Again, nobody got screwed.

Would it be nice to be rewarded by TiVo for taking a chance on this technology early? Sure it would. Would a simple thank you email from TiVo for be nice? Of course. Do they owe us either? Nope. We bought and used the service at the going rate whenever we made the decision that the price for the feature set was something we wanted to do. Simple.

Would all of this outrage be the same if a car company had side curtain airbags as an option one year and included in the basic package the next? Would the people who bought the option be up in arms, demanding rebates or even the new model with them standard? Sadly, in this day and age, they probably would be.

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ZeoTiVo is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 07:34 PM
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ZeoTiVo
One with the TiVo

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quote:
Originally posted by TivoFan
It doesn't have to necessarily be coincidental or follow your explanation. It could very well have been that Tivo, when it found out about the DirectTV news, wanted to offset the bad publicity and speculation. So they rushed to put together something that they could boast about and that would distract from the rumor that DirectTV might be going with the a competing DVR.


Yes I agree it could have gone the other way as well,
but there are some indicators that the HMO for free was already in the works to be announced --
Best Buy had advertised it the week before the announcement and was ready with the Best Buy music sampler in the HMO screen - I listened to them yesterday.

Humax was advertising the HMO feature as included on their models coming in July at least 2 days before the announcement - that is when I noticed them. no idea how long before that the web pages were up.

I still stand by my speculation that DirecTV and TiVo business models had parted ways and that is why the DirecTV guy left the board of TiVo. No acrimony - just business. TiVo's main emphasis will start to be on SA boxes and features adn not on a cable company deal and that is smart as it was starting to hurt them that the analysts were linking their staying in business to getting a cable company deal and it was hurting their stock. Now they can say that is not their business model and make their own destiny without relying on some other company (DirecTV and other cable companies) to keep the company a buy.

I also DO think that DirecTiVo sales will continue to increase and TiVo owners will continue to be a significant percentage of their DirecTV base. DirecTV can not ignore or change this and TiVo will continue sell lots of DirecTiVo boxes/subs. but these boxes will not have these new whiz bang features - just like HMO - and a DirecTiVo owner will be making a choice between great integrated Dual Tuner DVR or a SA DVR with the bells and whistles. - my predictions for 2005

__________________
Whoops, missed that Zeo did address this in his reply. ZeoTiVo is right! - TiVoOpsMgr

TTiVoToGo FAQ, I have never seen a company so bashed in a forum becasue its software is a little late

  • TiVo series 2/HMO 40 hours unmodded - so far
  • Toshiba SD H400 for 99$
  • JavaHMO/ paid for my HMO whiner
  • AVcast to broadcast TiVo/DVD/PC throughout house and playfort
  • 5 at a time NetFlix subscription

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ekuhner is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 08:14 PM
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ekuhner
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So, when TiVo launches the next gen services like having your TiVo access video files on your home computer, will they give this away to those of us who shelled out the $100 for the HMO? Or will they charge us for these new features?

Or will these new features require a completely new TiVo box? The series 3?

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eao is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 09:34 PM
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eao
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quote:
Originally posted by rogo
Be angry. It achieves a lot.

You sure you ain't being thrown a bone?

You sure you want a Windows PC instead of your Tivo? I doubt you do.

Oh, and that Windows PC is routinely "devalued". Intel's $800 chip from last year is about $100 now! Scandalous!



If you paid $800 for an Intel chip last year, you certainly didn't do your homework prior to buying. Not to mention, show me a case of Intel giving away a CPU for free. To play devil's advocate, a more accurate metaphor would be Intel giving away system boards with their CPUs. Stil, I don't see that happening.

Yes, the market devalues goods as they are replaced with better things and become obsolete or as competing products encroach. In this case, nothing has replaced my HMO and we're not dealing with a company the size of Intel. TiVo is still a smaller, consumer-oriented company (there aren't data-centers with thousands of TiVos) who is fighting an uphill battle against big media companies that plan on developing their own replacement systems, that's where DTV is headed. Intel makes most of it's margins on corporate sales, TiVo on the other hand still needs it's early adopters, the group they ditched with this move.

I'm not saying I want my money back, I'm not saying it shouldn't be free. My argument is that they mishandled the whole instance by passing it off as a new feature of TiVo and not saying thanks to those of us who actually footed the bill for it's maturity as a product.

Just for the record, the only Windows machine in my house is the one my wife uses, mine are all GNU\Linux as are ALL freevo systems. I don't know what kind of "PC" you had in mind but my freevo will be AMD GNU\Linux.

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:02 PM
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dgh
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quote:
Originally posted by eao
show me a case of Intel giving away a CPU for free. To play devil's advocate, a more accurate metaphor would be Intel giving away system boards with their CPUs.


If you want an Intel-centric way of looking at it, you used to have to pay about as much to add floating point to an Intel CPU as the CPU itself cost. Then they built floating point in to the CPU for "free" (Probably better than free since the chip not only came with floating point but also outperformed earlier Intel chips on integer work.) Likewise the "MMX" extensions and follow-ons do work that used to be done in add-on DSP hardware.

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(Now only 31 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated!)

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ZeoTiVo is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:11 PM
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ZeoTiVo
One with the TiVo

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quote:
Originally posted by dgh
If you want an Intel-centric way of looking at it, you used to have to pay about as much to add floating point to an Intel CPU as the CPU itself cost. Then they built floating point in to the CPU for "free" (Probably better than free since the chip not only came with floating point but also outperformed earlier Intel chips on integer work.) Likewise the "MMX" extensions and follow-ons do work that used to be done in add-on DSP hardware.


yes but that also improved things and led to better designs and lower production costs etc..

the analogy here is if they charged for the DSP hardware in january and then without much advanced notice started giving the DSP hardware away for free so they would sell more intel chips.

I have agreed that I paid the money fair and square and TiVo does not actually owe me anything. Why can the people arguing the other side not agree that TiVo did this in an incredibly poor fashion with no good faith regard shown (Yet) to the good customers who adopted early.

__________________
Whoops, missed that Zeo did address this in his reply. ZeoTiVo is right! - TiVoOpsMgr

TTiVoToGo FAQ, I have never seen a company so bashed in a forum becasue its software is a little late

  • TiVo series 2/HMO 40 hours unmodded - so far
  • Toshiba SD H400 for 99$
  • JavaHMO/ paid for my HMO whiner
  • AVcast to broadcast TiVo/DVD/PC throughout house and playfort
  • 5 at a time NetFlix subscription

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sublime is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:26 PM
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sublime
Cynic.

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Mogo, TX
Posts: 97

I guess eao ignored my car/airbag example and other points because he had no counters? Shrug

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:31 PM
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dgh
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
the analogy here is if they charged for the DSP hardware in january and then without much advanced notice started giving the DSP hardware away for free so they would sell more intel chips.


Are you sure that eao's analogy? It didn't look that specific to me. Even though I wasn't thinking about that analogy I would say the analogy is pretty good anyway with the caveat that the first "they" in your statement is the DSP vendors such as TI etc. and the second "they" is Intel. (ie Intel was sucking in other people's DSP business to sell more Intel chips. Obviously the DSP vendors weren't going out of their way to tell people you might not need their chips soon.) If someone could provide a concise list of the constraints, I might be able to find a better match. For example I'm using several pieces of software now that used to be free but they fail the Intel constraint that I was working under.

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jgickler is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:35 PM
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jgickler
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quote:
Originally posted by sublime
I guess eao ignored my car/airbag example and other points because he had no counters? Shrug


No, the problem with your analogy is that Tivo is not giving HMO on all new models. In your example, it would be like paying extra to install air bags on your car, then a year later the manufacturer having a recall and installing the airbags on all vehicles, not just new cars. You see the difference? Everyone gets HMO for free now, not just those who buy new Tivos.

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-10-2004 11:53 PM
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dgh
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quote:
Originally posted by jgickler
In your example, it would be like paying extra to install air bags on your car, then a year later the manufacturer having a recall and installing the airbags on all vehicles, not just new cars. You see the difference? Everyone gets HMO for free now, not just those who buy new Tivos.


I WISH my car manufacturer had recalled my car (of that era) to add airbags for free!!

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(Now only 31 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated!)

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sublime is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 12:07 AM
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sublime
Cynic.

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I'm pretty sure they are giving out HMO on all new models. They just happen to be giving it to older models too. The analogy still fits in that you paid for a service/feature that is now free.

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kantonburg is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 12:48 AM
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kantonburg
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I haven't read the whole thread but how does TiVo know that the same two tivo's are in the same house?

I have a S1 now using phone line. If I get a S2 I'm going to use my broadband setup. Is this tied into the CC account.

I don't have lifetime on my S1.

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eao is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 01:12 AM
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eao
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quote:
Originally posted by dgh
Are you sure that eao's analogy? It didn't look that specific to me. Even though I wasn't thinking about that analogy I would say the analogy is pretty good anyway with the caveat that the first "they" in your statement is the DSP vendors such as TI etc. and the second "they" is Intel. (ie Intel was sucking in other people's DSP business to sell more Intel chips. Obviously the DSP vendors weren't going out of their way to tell people you might not need their chips soon.) If someone could provide a concise list of the constraints, I might be able to find a better match. For example I'm using several pieces of software now that used to be free but they fail the Intel constraint that I was working under.


<sigh>

I'll try and get everyone's points as sublime seems to think they all need to be answered in a point-by-point fashion with the exception of mine (namely that TiVo mishandled the entire thing by disregarding it's early adopters) which he doesn't address.

sublime, I'm not saying anyone got screwed. I paid $100 for mine. To be honest I don't think it's that great aside from the remote scheduling which is cool (I could have modded in to a series 1 on my own for less than $100 that's for sure). Didn't have time to evaluate within 30 days so I was stuck with it and that's on me. jgickler has already made a better point as to why the airbag analogy is not valid. I'll add that I think the analogy also doesn't apply as auto makers, like Intel are giant companies that are not hurt by making early adopters angry. TiVo on the other hand, is largely supported by a passionate but relatively small user base who can influence the purchasing power of other buyers.

dgh actually, I didn't want an Intel-specific argument. My point was more that all the intel examples didn't apply as the size of the company and user base are apples and oranges between the two comparisons as I argue above. For the same reasons as the airbag, it's also a different argument, Intel didn't go around to people's houses and install FPUs after people started paying for them. If you upgraded to a new model and got it for free, then you got it but it wasn't a blanket give-away. In both cases you are talking about new product versions, not a free for all applicable to current and future customers.

A better example might be Novell/Ximian's recent open-sourcing of the M$ exchange connector. Even in that case however, those who paid for the connector still have a value add, they can pick up a phone and call a Novell support rep for help (similar with Microsoft MiX, IBM and Eclipse). You can't do that for the free version, there is still value to those who paid for them. Regardless, I don't think any of these examples are correct. This is a case of a service devaluation, not a product maturing.

I think the service vs. product aspect of this can't be overstated. Those of us who paid, paid for things like remote scheduling, HMO customer support, network schedule upgrades, content server software, etc. These are all scarce resources that will now be degraded as a deluge of new customers get them for free. I guarantee TiVo had to spend $$$ on network bandwith, servers, support staff, etc to support this change. There will be more incidents, outages and problems as a result. I for one wonder how they can take it all on with reduced cost structures and think it's not a good sign. Not sure if we will see it but behind the scenes it's there. For the sake of argument, I can think of plenty of examples where services go the other direction and become more costly as time goes on. Yahoo mail for example used to offer POP3 access for free. Not any more. My cable service keeps getting more expensive as does my phone service.

I'm not saying I want my money back, I'm not saying it shouldn't be free and all the above are secondary points because I like to argue. The primary point I'm making is that they mishandled the whole instance by passing it off as a new feature of TiVo and not saying thanks to those of us who actually footed the bill for it's maturity as a service. They could have found a way to make the service still have some extra value for those of us who purchased it.

I *do* think TiVo owes those of us who paid $100 for the service, at a minimum not putting it in my face as "new" features (see the newsletter) and a thanks for being there email. I've been an early adopter of TiVo all along and I know what comes with the turf. I've evangelized TiVo to at least 20 people I know of who bought one on my recommendation, given four as gifts, modded 10+ for people, etc. Unlike Intel or a car manufacturer, TiVo still needs people to do this type of thing as their product matures and I think they have forgotten that by disregarding those of us who helped get here as early adopters. Maybe I'm wrong and TiVo is a juggernaut of industry with a commoditized, mature product base unbeholden to the user base who pays it's innovation premium but I don't see it.

sublime, it's not, as you say, "Simple" but you choose not to address these points so shrug right back at you.

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 01:20 AM
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dgh
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quote:
Originally posted by eao
Intel didn't go around to people's houses and install FPUs after people started paying for them.


This is what jgickler just said about airbags. Again, if Intel was willing to send someone to my home to install an FPU at no charge, I would have welcomed them. Wow! Talk about service!

I think that this thread has reached:

Proven by analogy:

Good = bad.

Or at least:

No good dead goes unpunished.

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(Now only 31 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated!)

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Krandor is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 01:22 AM
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Krandor
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HMO

I did not buy HMO. However, from reading the comments from people it is obvious that TiVo got themselves into a bind. They wanted to offer HMO as an add-on service (which I think was overpriced) and it did not sell as well as they wanted. I think it should have been included to begin with (or maybe an extra buck or two on the monthly fee). They finally realized this and turned it on for all.

Turning it on for everybody creates problems from people that paid for it. They should probably determine some kind of "monthy value" for the HMO option and then have a pro-rated refund based on how long you had it so if you had it for a while you might get nothing but if you got it recently you get most of it back.

Other then that, I don't see any better way for TiVo to handle it. They needed to make it a bundled feature, but you have a bunch of people that bought it. That presents a dilema.

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TeddS is offline Old Post 06-11-2004 01:27 AM
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Seems to me that a big reason why Tivo is giving away HMO now is so that it can go to content providers, like Best Buy's music promotions, etc, and tell them that there are X number of people hooked into HMO. The larger the value of X, the higher prices Tivo can charge for access to those people.

It's sort of like all the magazines which give away free subscriptions - obviously so that they can increase ad revenues by legitimately claiming very high numbers of readers.

I just hope that the revenues Tivo gets from this can be turned around into upgrades to the system which are user-oriented and not necessarily content provider-oriented, although some happy medium should be reachable.

--Tedd

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>>> HMO is now set to be free, second Tivos in a house $6.95/month... <<<

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