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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:22 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

Mac,

I can't play two games at once, period. I always imagine those chess masters playing 13 games at once... I am not them.

-John

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Monday, June 13th, TC-Con '05 - Just Vegas, baby!

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:24 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

K, at the break, I'm in 29th position now... 271 players left.

-John

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:49 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

Welp, I'm out... probably some stupid plays... but final hand I was all-in AQ, vs AT and 77... T flopped.

-John

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Breacagan is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:50 AM
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Breacagan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: May 2000
Location:
Posts: 1866

quote:
Originally posted by JohnJr
I have one question from the tourney... there was the one hand where you called Breacagans bet on the river... $1200, and he won with T high? Ya'll may have chatted about it, but I missed the chat. Ya'll were heads up at that point.
Yes, that was a strange hand.

Here it is:

Tournament level - 600/1200

Preflop: Breacagan is Button and posts a blind of 300. Maui is BB and posts a blind of 600.
Breacagan raises, BB (Maui) calls. (4 SB)

Flop: 6h, 2h, 9c
Maui bets, Breacagan calls. (6 SB)

Turn: Jh
Maui bets, Breacagan raises, Maui calls. (7 BB)

River: 6d
Maui checks, Breacagan bets, Maui calls. (9 BB)

Results in white below:
Breacagan shows Tc 8s (one pair, sixes).
Maui mucks 7c 8d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Breacagan wins 9 BB.


If you can't beat a bluff, just calling doesn't work. However, the pot is big, and it may be worth a bluff to try to win it. Here are two lines that probably would have worked in this case:

- Bet when the scare card hits on the river. You'll at least beat other busted draws out of the pot, although opponents with a piece of the board will probably call.
- Check-raise the river. It's gutsy, but you might get your opponent to lay down second pair, or possibly even top pair, weak kicker.

If you're not up to either of these, a fold is better than a call. It's definitely a raise-or-fold situation.

__________________
--b

What he said. --bsnelson
What he said. --mrpurple
* MarkovBot threatens 404's bicycle with a bic pen

Last edited by Breacagan on 06-24-2004 at 11:03 AM

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:55 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

I remember the other... probably stupid on my part... KJo in the SB, re-raised 3xBB raise from 1 before cut-off, to 6xBB ($4800). Flop is AQ9. I'm in early position (sucks!), I bet out $8,000... He raises all-in to $10,000, I call another $2k... he had A7 or something. That was a pretty big hit.

-John

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Breacagan is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 10:59 AM
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Breacagan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: May 2000
Location:
Posts: 1866

Ugh.

I did like your move with AQ on your final hand, though. I saw that one. Your opponent made a horrible call and got very lucky. You had an excellent chance to recover a lot of your losses from the previous hand. (Was the penultimate hand AA vs. AK? I missed that one.)

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--b

What he said. --bsnelson
What he said. --mrpurple
* MarkovBot threatens 404's bicycle with a bic pen

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Maui is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:08 AM
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Maui
The Eternal Newbie

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2102

quote:
Originally posted by Breacagan
Yes, that was a strange hand.

Here it is:

Preflop: Breacagan is Button with Tc, 8s. Breacagan posts a blind of 300.
Breacagan raises, BB (Maui) calls.

Flop: 6h, 2h, 9c
Maui bets, Breacagan calls.

Turn: Jh
Maui bets, Breacagan raises, Maui calls.

River: 6d
Maui checks, Breacagan bets, Maui calls.

Results in white below:
Breacagan shows Tc 8s (one pair, sixes).
Maui mucks 7c 8d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Breacagan wins .


If you can't beat a bluff, just calling doesn't work. However, the pot is big, and it may be worth a bluff to try to win it. Here are two lines that probably would have worked in this case:

- Bet when the scare card hits on the river. You'll at least beat other busted draws out of the pot, although opponents with a piece of the board will probably call.
- Check-raise the river. It's gutsy, but you might get your opponent to lay down second pair, or possibly even top pair, weak kicker.

If you're not up to either of these, a fold is better than a call. It's definitely a raise-or-fold situation.



I had the 7 & 8 for the open ended straight draw after the flop. I should have been more aggressive after the river as Byron says to try and take the pot after I missed the straight. I definitely should have bet at the pot if I was planning to call his bet. I played it much too passively and seeing his hand I maybe could have gotten him to fold had I been more aggressive.

Bottom line - I choked

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:11 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

Those are the only two big hands I remember, But I did go from 27T chips to 0, very fast.

The AA I posted above was a huge double up for me... 13K chips (decent) in early position... I just raised $400... somebody called, LP reraises $3k... I rereraise all-in. He called with QQ. My AA held up. Busted him.

-John

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:20 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

Maui,

Thanks for explaining... you understand our horror at your call on the river? If a T high beats you, that means you had virtually nothing, and you should have either raised or folded on the river. Raise on the bluff, or fold because you are beat. A call there is only good if you think your opponent has a 7 or lower...

-John

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Maui is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:23 AM
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Maui
The Eternal Newbie

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2102

Yep, I screwed up.

If I had any poker savey or courage I would have bet the river to try and take it.

I still consider myself a bit of a newbie in comparison to you all (i know I play much less) so I do still make really silly mistakes.

But I'm a learnin' as quick as I can

I will say that despite that hand I consider this Tourney to be one of the most aggressive showings I have had and one of the better played ones.

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:28 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

You did very well, Maui... and please just take my comments as constructive criticism. And call me Mr. 10th place.

-John

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Maui is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:32 AM
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Maui
The Eternal Newbie

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2102

Oh absolutely I take all comments as constructive criticism. They don't bother me at all. I don't know how anyone else ranks me among the regular players here but I personally rank myself below all the regulars and many of the semi-regulars so I am not above taking well intended constructive criticism at all.

Anything to get better.

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June 2004 Tivo Community Heads Up Hold'em Winner
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Maui's Best Rocky Mountain National Park Pictures

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Breacagan is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:35 AM
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Breacagan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: May 2000
Location:
Posts: 1866

quote:
But I'm a learnin' as quick as I can

Here is some excellent learning material: "The Eight Mistakes in Poker" by David Sklansky

I used to check the river too often when I missed my draws. Then I read this article and realized the importance of Mistake No. 1. I'll still check the river when I miss my draws against players incapable of laying down bottom pair, but against stronger players, I will very often bet the river with nothing.

In fact, you'll sometimes hear poker commentators talking about a player catching a good card on the end and getting enough of a hand that they can just check the river. This is precisely the situation the commentators are talking about. On the end, you should be much more inclined to bet a hand that is very weak than one that is just barely strong enough to show down.

quote:
I will say that despite that hand I consider this Tourney to be one of the most aggressive showings I have had and one of the better played ones.

I was impressed by your aggression, and it says a lot for your learning so far that you realize that this is one of the keys to successful play.

__________________
--b

What he said. --bsnelson
What he said. --mrpurple
* MarkovBot threatens 404's bicycle with a bic pen

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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:38 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

I rank you #2... until next week. Very good game, Tom.

-John

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Monday, June 13th, TC-Con '05 - Just Vegas, baby!

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Maui is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:39 AM
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Maui
The Eternal Newbie

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2102

What I should really do is go over the heads up with Byron. He had the big stack and after a few hands I knew that only luck was going to get me back in the game.

He continually put me to the test by always coming in for a raise pre-flop and making me decide whether the 10 8 (pretty typical of my starting hands heads up) was worth calling a raise with. When I led out and bet he would fold if he didn't have a hand.

It was very well done and it didn't take me long to see what was going on and what a huge uphill battle I was facing.

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June 2004 Tivo Community Heads Up Hold'em Winner
View Pictures from the 2004 Tivo Community Gathering in Vegas
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JohnJr is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 11:44 AM
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JohnJr
Blown, cold, over.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 8017

Tom,

Do that... from what I recall, he started with 10K, and you with about 9K. It was pretty even. Then that T8, vs. 78 hand happened. You lost $5400 on that hand, and never recovered.

-John

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Monday, June 13th, TC-Con '05 - Just Vegas, baby!

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scottjf8 is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 07:08 PM
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scottjf8
New Daddy

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Piston Town, MI, USA
Posts: 4494

Last night was a blast.. I can't wait for our next tourney...

Like turtleboy said, I miss our usual Wednesday game and am glad it's back (and for real money too!)

Once word spreads more, I bet we get up to 20 people each week for these games.. one of my friends (a non-TC guy) wants to play, and with purple and his brother, i'm sure others will play too (NatasNJ, pmeyers, etc)

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Come see pictures of our new baby!!

TFEDEROV is my daddy!!
Hail to the victors, the University of Michigan

July 2004 TCF Heads Up Poker Champion

Be Very Scared, unless you have the nuts!
--JohnJr

"If you started on your 27th birthday and died on your 60th, you'd have to make 82.97 pounds of poo every day in order to get to $1,000,000. Of course, that's before taxes."
--Steavis

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montag is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 08:18 PM
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montag
Rebel Without a Home

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3840

I'd love to join in. As a rookie, I'm sure you guys would love some of my money.

About how long does a tournament last, from start to finish?

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scottjf8 is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 08:27 PM
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scottjf8
New Daddy

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Piston Town, MI, USA
Posts: 4494

Montag - usually a few hours..

__________________
Scott

Come see pictures of our new baby!!

TFEDEROV is my daddy!!
Hail to the victors, the University of Michigan

July 2004 TCF Heads Up Poker Champion

Be Very Scared, unless you have the nuts!
--JohnJr

"If you started on your 27th birthday and died on your 60th, you'd have to make 82.97 pounds of poo every day in order to get to $1,000,000. Of course, that's before taxes."
--Steavis

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Unsuited is offline Old Post 06-24-2004 08:53 PM
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Unsuited
Mainly ignorant.

Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 310

If I would have had to predict it before the tourney I think I would have had 2 out of the top 3 correct...

Breacagan just because heck... None of the rest of us dared the limits he did in Vegas!

Smak because he always seemed to have a decent pile of chips in front of him whenever I saw him. Plus I make it a habit of not openly picking against anyone who could grind me into dust.

But watch out... I'm laying the groundwork for the ability to be in this upcoming tourney! What good is being management if you can't slip into work a few hours late every now and again???

Montag - You're not the one from RoK, are you?

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'Unsuited

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