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>>> no more 800 # <<<

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alexcue is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 02:42 AM
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alexcue
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Tujunga, CA
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quote:
Originally posted by modnar:
That would have to be a dial-up ISP, right? Many people have cable modems DSL already, so, unless a serial connection would be allowed, that wouldn't be totally fair either.


Don't some of these broadband connections allow you to use a dial up ISP also? Mine does, which is handy when you travel and need a local ISP. FYI only.

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Old Post 06-14-2001 02:44 AM
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arjay
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quote:
Originally posted by modnar:

The only fair way to drop the toll free number now is say something like, "Only customers registered before August 1, 2001, will be able to use the toll free number."



Right now, no matter what the source, this speculation about TIVO's 800# is FUD. (Since some particularly alert but uninsightful poster made the point that RB's subsequent post made the original information in this thread potentially true, I will state unequivacally that after RB's post my FUD comment above no longer reflected the facts, which had changed.)

When, and if, TIVO makes changes in the way that the recorders access data, they most likely will do whatever makes sense from a business perspective. Being "fair" makes sense only if it won't put you out of business.

Eliminating a charge for one set of customers, but not another, might not be the greatest spur for sales. It might be that eliminating 800#'s completely would result in more sales than a grandfathering scheme.

I gotta' admit I don't understand the rationale for a customer getting access to an 800# just because their telco. charges for local calls.

Long term, using telephone calls to exchange data with recording machines seems a very cumbersome and expensive way to achieve that data transfer. Think of the cost of maintaining all those local numbers.

Coupled with the unfortunate tendency for TIVO's telephone modems to fail, the requirement for a TIVO telephone connection is one of the weaker parts of the TIVO business model and potentially holds it back.

Gemstar has a deal with PBS stations for use of their subcarrier signals to download its program guide data. VideoGuide, the guide service that went out of business, used pager radio frequencies.

I don't know the cost savings these or other methods would produce, but if a phone connection was only needed to send data from the recorder to TIVO, it seems a very short call every two weeks or so would do it.


[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 06-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 06-14-2001).]

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Fofer is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 02:52 AM
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Fofer
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles
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quote:
Originally posted by doom1701:
Another perfect example of why somebody needs to create a device that you can use to plug a regular phone device (such as your Tivo) into a cell phone. I get hundreds of minutes a month, no long distance charges, for nothing (well, my parents got my wife and I a year's service for Christmas.) Tops, though, you'd be looking at $35 a month for decent cell service with free long distance.

Someday, somebody that understands how to build something like this is going make millions. I'll buy one.



It exists, I've seen it mentioned in this forum, as well as in one of these "Sharper Image" type catalogs. It's basically a cradle you put your cellphone into, and you can use a regular phone on it. I think it was one of the featured gadgets in a recent issue of Wired magazine... but I can't specifically recall. Anyone here know what I'm talking about, or have a link?

Back to the subject at hand -- I doubt this is a spoofed/hacked e-mail. Just a poorly worded response from a not-so-bright support person. In either case it bodes poorly for TiVo, both that they'd employ someone as dim as that, but also that finances would be so hard that this is a feature they'd have to renege on. Many people will be disappointed.

I can totally see TiVo cancelling the 1-800 dial-in numbers -- that wouldn't surprise me. What they SHOULD do, though, is continue to offer this to people who already use it with lifetime service(after all, they paid for that feature set.) Anyone on MONTHLY should be given the option to pay $4.95 (or so) extra a month to continue using it. Something that would be cheaper than having to pay for the call, but enough to cover TiVo's costs. I'm sure TiVo gets a bulk deal, and since the calls are somewhat contained the prices would be somewhat predictable.

But TiVo really should NOT just pull the plug. There are a lot of folks out there that want/need this option.

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 03:38 AM
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Dan203
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quote:
Originally posted by doom1701:
Another perfect example of why somebody needs to create a device that you can use to plug a regular phone device (such as your Tivo) into a cell phone. I get hundreds of minutes a month, no long distance charges, for nothing (well, my parents got my wife and I a year's service for Christmas.) Tops, though, you'd be looking at $35 a month for decent cell service with free long distance.

Someday, somebody that understands how to build something like this is going make millions. I'll buy one.



There is such a device, it's called a Vox Link . However it's expensive (~$200) and because of the bandwidth limitations of cell phones it apparently doesn't work with modems.

Dan

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walters is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 04:26 AM
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walters
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Digital cellular allocates about 7 Kbps for voice, doing so by using compression optimized for voice. Don't expect much from an analog modem connected to a cellular phone in this manner.

There are celphones available that have connectors made for modems, but they don't use the voice channel (and they charge more for data airtime than for voice airtime, I believe).

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TiVolutionary is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 04:42 AM
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TiVolutionary
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Cool

It is true that TiVo is considering discontinuing free access to the 800 dial-up number, among other cost-saving measures. At this time, no formal decision has been made. We are considering this as part of our mission to make our service profitable.

Please note that none of TiVo's competitors offer free 800# access. Similar industries, such as Internet service providers, charge a premium for 800 access.

As others on this thread have noted, TiVo's costs for customers using an 800# for standalone Recorders are substantially greater than our costs for customers using a pop number. Having the unit call every third day (or any similar scheme) wouldn't ease the costs since the amount of data to be downloaded ends up ultimately being the same.

We are considering a variety of options for existing subscribers who use the 800 number, including offering an annual fee for 800 access. Some have suggested that we support local ISPs; we may introduce support for ISPs in the future, but there is significant engineering effort.

We are also considering different policies for the DIRECTV with TiVo Receiver since the calls it makes each day are much shorter. If we were to decide to change any of our policies with respect to the use of the 800# we would notify all customers currently using the 800# via a TiVo message (and, of course, here).

A huge majority of our current customers use POP numbers. Because our POP network is always expanding, we may have recently added support in your area. In the last year, we've added (literally) hundreds of new POP numbers. If you thought we didn't have a local POP number for you - go take another look. We've added a bunch!

-RB

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samo is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 05:10 AM
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samo
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(looking in my crystal ball) I predict about 100 posts from home grown attorneys that would sound like "I paid you for lifetime, promise is a promise and if you want to charge me for 800 number, I will start class action"

[This message has been edited by samo (edited 06-13-2001).]

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mattn2 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 05:10 AM
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mattn2
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Arrow

Hopefully more local POPs are added BEFORE any change will take place. All currently are long distance to me . This is even though I live in a high-tech area (HP, Agilent, Intel, Philips, QLogic, NEC, DATEK, Verifone, etc.) near but not in Sacramento, CA (Sacto is long distance ).

# Matt

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David Bolling is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 05:11 AM
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David Bolling
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Thanks for the official word, RB. Your approach sounds well reasoned, although I can't see how TiVo can legally get around grandfathering current subscribers.

quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary:
A huge majority of our current customers use POP numbers. Because our POP network is always expanding, we may have recently added support in your area. In the last year, we've added (literally) hundreds of new POP numbers. If you thought we didn't have a local POP number for you - go take another look. We've added a bunch!



TiVo should be proactively converting 800# users when a local POP becomes available to them. There' no incentive for the customer to do it himself. One poster above even admitted that he now has a local# but still uses the 800# -- that's money down the drain.

[This message has been edited by David Bolling (edited 06-13-2001).]

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modnar is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 05:37 AM
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modnar
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Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary:
We are considering a variety of options for existing subscribers who use the 800 number, including offering an annual fee for 800 access. Some have suggested that we support local ISPs; we may introduce support for ISPs in the future, but there is significant engineering effort.


I would consider paying a premium for use of the 800 number, granted that it is cheaper than the premium I will have to pay the phone company. I'm not sure about the others in this town whom I know have TiVos.

Is the number list on UUnet's web site the definitive list?

Doesn't UltimateTV charge a premium for the "Use your own ISP" service? This seems silly, but I think I read it somewhere. Either way, this would not help me or many others in my area since we have cable modem access.

I live in the fastest growing city in this state, and it continues to baffle me why more companies don't offer local numbers in this area. (I'm going to have TiVo check for one again tonight....just to be sure.--UPDATE: Nope, no local number)

This is something that confuses me: Apparently the user base of the 800 number is so small that the 800 number could be taken away without outcry, but it is big enough that it is hurting TiVo's profit substantially. Earlier in the thread, someone said that just having the 800 number alleviated any doubt in a potential TiVo owner's mind of having to pay an extra fee. This seems very important, and I'm sure it has been brought up in many meetings about this.

Hopefully TiVo will be more vigilant, as David Bolling said, in making sure people with local numbers are using them before saying goodbye to the 800 number completely.

Thanks for the update, RB. I appreciate not being left in the dark on this issue!

[This message has been edited by modnar (edited 06-13-2001).]

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tater2 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 05:51 AM
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tater2
Tarheel Tivo

Registered: Jun 2001
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I finally made it home. I checked my email for a response back from Tivo on my case number. nothing yet. source am still trying to figure out how to view the source code in Outlook 2000 to see who the email came from. Looked in the help under Outlook but could not find anything on it

this is the entire email including the reply
-------------------------------------------------------
Scott,
We are discontinuing the 800# support - we can't afford it. Plus, our POP #
access list has grown to a point we feel it reaches virtually all people in
the US.
I would encourage you to keep the DIRECTV receiver with TiVo for your parents
since most of the information that receiver needs comes via satellite. The
phone calls can be done for the nearest POP - and even though they would have
to pay for those calls, the call duration would be minor. In fact, you have
have the phone disconnected from the receiver most of the time and after a
while without it, it will start reminding you to connect. At that point, you
can connect it and make the call. It should be about once every other week.
Hope this takes care of it.
Product Marketing Guy

tater2@nc.rr.com wrote:

&gt; Customer name: tater2

&gt; Topic: Product
&gt; -------
&gt;
&gt; I recently purchased another TivoDirect TV for my parents. They live in
&gt; a remote area of N.C. away form any major cities. I looked for a local
&gt; Tivo number on my Tivo and was unable to find on in their area. My
&gt; questions can they dial an 800 number to receive updates? If not I guess
&gt; I will have to return to system.
&gt;
&gt; Hopefully there is a way they can call because I would hate for them to
&gt; miss out on how great Tivo really is.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks in advance,
&gt;
&gt; Scott


tater


[This message has been edited by tater2 (edited 06-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by tater2 (edited 06-13-2001).]

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Leon WIlkinson is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:04 AM
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Leon WIlkinson
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Registered: Feb 2000
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Arrow

quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary:


We are considering a variety of options for existing subscribers who use the 800 number, including offering an annual fee for 800 access. Some have suggested that we support local ISPs; we may introduce support for ISPs in the future, but there is significant engineering effort.

We are also considering different policies for the DIRECTV with TiVo Receiver since the calls it makes each day are much shorter. If we were to decide to change any of our policies with respect to the use of the 800# we would notify all customers currently using the 800# via a TiVo message (and, of course, here).

A huge majority of our current customers use POP numbers. Because our POP network is always expanding, we may have recently added support in your area. In the last year, we've added (literally) hundreds of new POP numbers. If you thought we didn't have a local POP number for you - go take another look. We've added a bunch!

-RB




NOT that I'm MAD, it IS just this KEYboard.

I would love to have the free 800 services! Or a local # to call.

What would be the chances of me changing TiVo's mind if I said I was going to hold my breath until you back down? I started

Mybe, if you would look into getting ISP support a little harder, mybe just mybe these 5 little fluffy TiVo guys my just get to see Sept!!!

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[This message has been edited by Leon WIlkinson (edited 06-13-2001).]

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modnar is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:06 AM
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modnar
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Conway, AR, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by tater2:
I finally made it home. I checked my email for a response back from Tivo on my case number. nothing yet. source am still trying to figure out how to view the source code in Outlook 2000 to see who the email came from. Looked in the help under Outlook but could not find anything on it


Don't worry about posting the source now that TiVolutionary has spoken on the issue.

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Mars Rocket is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:13 AM
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Mars Rocket
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quote:
Originally posted by David Bolling:
One poster above even admitted that he now has a local# but still uses the 800# -- that's money down the drain.


That was me, but to be fair I didn't know if there was a local # - there wasn't when I moved here, and I just never went back and checked to see if one had been added...until tonight. Sure enough there is now a local # for me to use, so I've switched to it to avoid costing TiVo any money.

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bgreen5 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:24 AM
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bgreen5
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Exclamation

tater2,

You might consider removing your phone number from your post above... if only for your own security.

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Dan203 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:24 AM
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Dan203
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Cool

quote:
Originally posted by Mars Rocket:
That was me, but to be fair I didn't know if there was a local # - there wasn't when I moved here, and I just never went back and checked to see if one had been added...until tonight. Sure enough there is now a local # for me to use, so I've switched to it to avoid costing TiVo any money.


TiVo should come up with a way to keep track of this! Who knows how much money they're losing by allowing people to use the 800# after a local number is added for their area. They should also send out a TiVo alert every time a new local number is added to your area, that way those people who are forced to use toll numbers will have a chance to change when/if a local number is added.

Dan

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tater2 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:29 AM
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tater2
Tarheel Tivo

Registered: Jun 2001
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Post

sorry I guess I missed that post. I am going ahead with setting up the DirecTivo this weekend for my parents. They can at least use the 800 number until they get a local number for Kittrell NC. Hopefully the will be a local number soon.

On another note:
I got a message on my Tivo saying that i needed to chooses another local number because the current one i was using was going away.

It sounds like from reading some of the other posts that Tivo should send out other messages to the current 800 number users telling them to look again for a local number

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TiVolutionary:
A huge majority of our current customers use POP numbers. Because our POP network is always expanding, we may have recently added support in your area. In the last year, we've added (literally) hundreds of new POP numbers. If you thought we didn't have a local POP number for you - go take another look. We've added a bunch!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TiVo should be proactively converting 800# users when a local POP becomes available to them. There' no incentive for the customer to do it himself. One poster above even admitted that he now has a local# but still uses the 800# -- that's money down the drain.

[This message has been edited by David Bolling (edited 06-13-2001).]

Thanks again for all of you help.

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tater2 is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 06:32 AM
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tater2
Tarheel Tivo

Registered: Jun 2001
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bgreen5,

Thanks. I guess I missed that.

Thanks again,

tater2

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Old Post 06-14-2001 06:37 AM
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arjay
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quote:
Originally posted by bgreen5:
tater2,
You might consider removing your phone number from your post above... if only for your own security.



Private messages are more discrete, but posts get the job done quicker!

Glad to see it's a done deal.

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NPBeacher is offline Old Post 06-14-2001 07:15 AM
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NPBeacher
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Orange County, Cal. USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203:
That's such a crock! There is no such thing as FREE local calls, some of us are just forced in to a unlimited access plan rather and others, like yourself, have a pay per use plan. For example here in Nevada I have to pay almost $20 a month for unlimited local calls on a phone line I that I use primarily for TiVo and an occasional call to the local Pizza Hut. Just because your phone company makes you pay on a per call basis, rather then a monthly payment, doesn't mean that TiVo should have to foot the bill for you to use their 800#. Hell if I could pay on a per call basis I would do it in a heart beat. $4 a month is a hell of a lot better then $20 a month for something I use maybe 2-3 hours a week.

Now I can understand people who use 800# access because the only local number is long distance, but I think that, if this is all true, they can fix that by expanding their networks or offering a "Use My ISP" option like rasheed suggested.

Dan



Yeah, I'd be the first one to jump on a "bring my own ISP" bandwagon if they'd offer it. Or maybe as someone suggested earlier, a menu item to let me change the requency of call in...


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