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TiVo Community Forum Archive 1 : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.8 TiVo Community Forum Archive 1 > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion
>>> Lexus advertisement on TiVo (cont.) <<<

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jsmeeker is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:43 AM
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jsmeeker
Big know-it-all

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas (or L.A.)
Posts: 15821

Post

quote:
Originally posted by emathieu:
A class action suit would REALLY solve all your problems. You'd get $3.24 in the settlement, TiVo would go out of business, and you'd have a cool box to stare at.

I can't believe how litigious our society has become.

Emathieu.



Maybe the poster is a lawyer.. They are the ones that "win" in class actions.



------------------
Jeff

Sony SVR-2000
"Let the Tivolution be televised"

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unixadm is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:43 AM
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unixadm
Moderator

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2681

Post

quote:
Originally posted by MirclMax:
To reiterate what I've said in the other thread and what someone else has said in this thread (just trying to focus the discussion)


Lose the PTCM and 99% of the "problem" with this goes away.

Thank you.





From page six of the previous thread:
_______________________________________________________
___
Posted By TiVolutionary:
Thanks for the feedback. For the record, I would just assume we never send out a non-urgent-service-related-PTCM again
_______________________________________________________
____

I think that TiVo sent out all means of notification to let us know of this new thing they are doing...and to give us all a chance to win a car. They were testing the waters and will most likely not use PTCM's for advertising again but will probably keep the link on the TiVo Central screen and of course, the section in Showcases.

If this makes most people happy (you can never make everyone happy ) then all is well.

Remember one thing...There are only a total of around 250,000 TiVo Subscribers. We are a very small amount of people compared to the total number of subscribers TiVo hopes (and needs) to get over the next couple of years. Any new subscriber will see this as being part of the TiVo package and may welcome it since it offers chances to get free prizes. TiVo is gearing up for a big subscriber influx and wants to have all of this working by the time that happens. We are the testing bed, and although our input will weigh in on how they fully implement, this is part of their business plan and no matter what we say, advertising is here to stay.

As far as TiVo Central....unless it shows up there, a big name like Lexus is not going to pay TiVo big bucks to make an alliance. Let's look at the other side of the coin...let's say you owned a business and wanted to advertise....You could have 250,000 + see your company name everytime they brought up a particular menu, or they could see "Advertising and Promotions" and have to click into that to see your name. You know that a much smaller number would actually click through so most would not see your company name. You would not pay big bucks to have only a small percentage of people see your company name when you could have ALL users see your name.

It's all about the name recognition....Most people have heard of TiVo but don't know what it is...they got their name out there....same here....Companies will pay top $ to have their name seen by hundreds of thousands if not millions of people even if they don't click through. This is the only way TiVo will be able to sell this new feature. Lexus is not going to give away a $30,000 (or more?) car if their name is only seen by 50,000 people when they could have the ability have 250,000 or more people see their name for that same $30,000 price. They want name recognition to be able to give such high priced prizes away and the only way to do that is via TiVo Central.

------------------
TiVo has forever changed the way I view TV!

Check out my Tivo Upgrade page...Has photos and instructions of upgrade.
http://www.tivoupgrade.info

To understand LNB's & Multiswitches, read this post:
<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/003608.html" TARGET=_blank>
LNB & Multiswitch Explaination</A>

<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/005640.html" TARGET=_blank>
Which Multiswitch and where to Buy </A>

[This message has been edited by unixadm (edited 11-13-2001).]

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SnakeEyes is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:49 AM
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SnakeEyes
Senior Member

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Post

o/~ This is the thread that never ends o/~

------------------
"Don't burn the day away"

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2lovtivo is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:52 AM
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2lovtivo
Divorced From TiVo:(

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Kingsport, Tennessee
Posts: 4

Angry

I can just say that when I got rid of my SA's I looked at both the UTV and the DTIVO. One of the deciding items was that UTV puts ads in the program guide (not that I would really have ever bought a UTV, they are junk) - TiVo did not do this (Ads)... I can't not justify paying for Tivo service when they are putting advertising in my face - that's just wrong! If this were Replay doing this I could understand (no montly fee) - but I pay 9.95 a month for TiVo Features. It's just sad to see FORCED advertising is part of TiVo Features now. Oh, well - what can we do about it? I like my TiVo, I guess I will make my decision based on what happens in the next few months.

------------------
2LovTiVo(Previous 2.01 Beta Team Member)
MCSE, A+
1 Sony T-60 (UnHacked) 2.5
1 Sony T-60 (UnHacked) 2.5
1 Philips 30hr SA (UnHacked) (Dead - Bad Modem) 2.0.1
1 Philips 30hr Paper Weight (Dead - Bad Modem) 2.0.1

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Old Post 11-14-2001 08:52 AM
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hkatz
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quote:
Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
An aside note, I've noticed this topic is bringing out first posters. Anyway, why are you complaining about TiVo storing ads now? Showcases have had ads that you cannot delete The ads are in the reserved space anyway, they won't cause any shows to be deleted earlier or cause you to run out of disk space quicker. As far as Lexus giving out your email address, read ther privacy agreement then retract that statement



First of all, your aside seems somewhat derisive. FYI, I am not a "First Time Poster". The site simply lost my ID since I have not posted for a while. So, maybe you can HEAR what I'm saying now (if you can put aside you patronizing attitude toward other people whom you obviously think less of, because they may have less posts then you).

Why am I complaining about the ads now? Because it is now downloading not just text, but video/audio content recorded at the highest quality. - HEY I WATCHED THE AD - NOW I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DELETE IT. I paid for the TiVo, this is my hard drive, You should have MY permission to put things there. Would you tolerate this on your PC? The Tivo IS a PC.
When software puts a file on your drive without your permission it's called a VIRUS. When Tivo does it, I call it a VIRUS. Hmmm, lets see - please consider that part of your Windows PC has an area called RESERVED. Now, how would you feel if Bill Gates claimed that area on your drive as his, to load whatever he wants into it? Don't worry - he's only using the RESERVED area!! Get it? You still live in a free country where freedoms can be eroded away one at a time. It's called a slippery slope.

This is a CONSTITUTIONAL issue here.

As far as Lexus' privacy statement. Try what I suggested and SEE what happens. I've been in the computer programming business since 1966 (Really - no bull), and these sites have lawyers draw up these statements with enough loopholes so they can AND DO get around the intent. Who really understands or even has time to read every privacy statement one encounters while surfing the web? Do you really leave your email address for every contest? I do not think that even YOU would do that. Most everyone on the internet has had their email given out to spammers, and has wondered how it got out. What about the times you go to a site that says they are going to remove you from their spam list, only to find out (or not be able to prove) they gave it to 10 more sites!!!

Retract my statement after reading "ther (sic) privacy agreement"? I would NEVER retract my statement on the flimsy grounds of reading some verbose lawyer speak.

My list of demands are as follows:

1. Allow the downloads, but let me erase them.

2. Have the ability to turn off downloads .
(It's the principle, not the actual Lexus ad - I wouldn't turn it off just for that).

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rasheed is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:53 AM
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rasheed
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 810

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quote:
Originally posted by Ov1Ture:
** The DirecTV/TiVo combo units didn't get the TiVo Central menu item. ONLY the SA TiVos running 2.5.1 **
[..]
2. Added a menu item to the bottom of TiVo Central with a gold star stating "Win the All-New Lexus ES 300" (Not ok. Just put it in Showcases and we will go there)
[..]
I wonder how many people here complaining about this contest have SAs with Lexus menu items and how many people who are FOR it or have no opinion have combo boxes without the menu item. I for one am annoyed by the Lexus Menu Item on principle. I don't feel TiVo Central should be the place for this.
[..]
It's interesting the combo boxes didn't get a menu item...



It is interesting that combo boxes don't have the menu item. I think it would only be fair for them to have it. Maybe DirecTV wouldn't give them permission.

Showcases and to a lesser extent, TM are okay areas. Non-PTCM message is fine too. Central item is not.

Rasheed

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unixadm is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 08:59 AM
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unixadm
Moderator

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quote:
Originally posted by rasheed:
It is interesting that combo boxes don't have the menu item. I think it would only be fair for them to have it. Maybe DirecTV wouldn't give them permission.

Rasheed



It has nothing to do with that....it is the 2.5.1 software that just released on the Standalones....The DirectTiVos are still at 2.5.0 and don't have the ability to have the TiVo Central Item until they release the 2.5.1 for the DirectTiVos.

------------------
TiVo has forever changed the way I view TV!

Check out my Tivo Upgrade page...Has photos and instructions of upgrade.
http://www.tivoupgrade.info

To understand LNB's & Multiswitches, read this post:
<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/003608.html" TARGET=_blank>
LNB & Multiswitch Explaination</A>

<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/005640.html" TARGET=_blank>
Which Multiswitch and where to Buy </A>

[This message has been edited by unixadm (edited 11-13-2001).]

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jsmeeker is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:01 AM
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jsmeeker
Big know-it-all

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas (or L.A.)
Posts: 15821

Post

quote:
Originally posted by hkatz:
Why am I complaining about the ads now? Because it is now downloading not just text, but video/audio content recorded at the highest quality. - HEY I WATCHED THE AD - NOW I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DELETE IT. I paid for the TiVo, this is my hard drive, You should have MY permission to put things there. Would you tolerate this on your PC?



It does not download the actual ads. They are recorded off of your TV feed (Discovery channel).

It uses space specifically reserved for this purpose, along with the other Showcases that have video clips (like the NFL stuff I got this weekend). You *are not* loosing any space you could be using to record programs. This space has *always* been reserved.


------------------
Jeff

Sony SVR-2000
"Let the Tivolution be televised"

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Michael R is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:04 AM
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Michael R
Major

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 123

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Here's my suggested attack plan on this unerasable Lexus ad on your TiVo Central main menu. Follow the Lexus/TiVo money trail. Go to http://www.lexus.com and look up your local dealer. Then give that dealer royal [curse word]. Further, tell your friends to NOT repeat NOT buy TiVo's until the TiVo policy is changed. It's time to send a money trail message right back to TiVo and Lexus, loud and clear.

------------------
<FONT COLOR="brown">HDR31204 original w cable/DTV & 2.5.1
The fittest shall survive yet the unfit may live. </FONT c>

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Teran is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:05 AM
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Teran
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Glen Carbon, IL, USA
Posts: 6

Post

quote:
Originally posted by unixadm:
1. Life WITHOUT ANY TiVo
or
2. Life with TiVo with some cool chances to win prizes if you wish to view some commercials. TiVo thrives and grows and we get better TiVos in the future.




3. TiVo adds another tier of service which is advertising free for an additional monthly charge.


You have 7 TiVos? No wonder you attack anyone who might point out any of TiVo's weaknesses. Talk about putting all of your eggs in one basket.

To clear up what I said about dismantling my TiVo, it comes down to this:

TiVo has control over the functionality of MY device. If they choose to remove functionality, they can. If they want to add functionality, they can. If they want to add advertising, they can. If they wish to keep it advertisement free, they can. BUT, if they fundamentally change the device by turning it into a means to sell advertising then I no longer want it.

Give it away? No way. It is mine and I will recover what value from it I can -- probably by recycling the hard drive. Sell it? I'm of mixed minds about that. Do I really want to support a company that would do this to me? I honestly don't know, but probably not.

It is TiVo's responsibility to create a business model that works. Until then, I will keep my investment small. If someone better comes along, I will consider using their product. If TiVo is responsive to customer complaints and removes that d*mn menu item I will continue to use their product.

Blind devotion? No way.

------------------

- Todd H. Shore -

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unixadm is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:08 AM
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unixadm
Moderator

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2681

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quote:
Originally posted by hkatz:
When Tivo does it, I call it a VIRUS.

This is a CONSTITUTIONAL issue here.




Sure it's a Constitutional issue....you have the constitutional right to cancel your TiVo service and you won't get the downloads...you also won't get the Guide data, the Patented TiVo functions, etc.

Then you can do what you please with your hard drive. You subscribe to a service that sends you data...if you don't like the data, then stop subscribing to the service.

You pay TiVo (or paid a lifetime sub) for the right to use their software along with getting updates of their software and the guide data, etc. The data that you get is part of the service and is could not be considered a "Virus". They have the right (if you read the service agreement) to change the service if it is in their best interest to do so. Now, if Microsoft figured out a way to connect to your TiVo and put ads, there, then it would be a virus since a third party did it.

Would you rather they go out of business and you have NO service and NO TiVo functions?



------------------
TiVo has forever changed the way I view TV!

Check out my Tivo Upgrade page...Has photos and instructions of upgrade.
http://www.tivoupgrade.info

To understand LNB's & Multiswitches, read this post:
<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/003608.html" TARGET=_blank>
LNB & Multiswitch Explaination</A>

<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/005640.html" TARGET=_blank>
Which Multiswitch and where to Buy </A>

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Teran is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:12 AM
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Teran
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Glen Carbon, IL, USA
Posts: 6

Post

quote:
Originally posted by unixadm:

Would you rather they go out of business and you have NO service and NO TiVo functions?



Would you rather they make a significant portion of their subscribers angry enough that they cancel their subscription and thus go out of business?


------------------

- Todd H. Shore -

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:13 AM
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feldon23
MythBuster

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1821

Post

quote:
Originally posted by kellogs:
If tivo can't make a profit that's tivo's fault.


quote:
Labonte18 quipped:
And our problem.


quote:
Originally posted by kellogs:
We are customer, not benefactors.


quote:
Labonte18 quipped:
TiVo is a business, not a charity.


And all this begging and pleading to support TiVo in this obtrusive advertising is a thinly veiled request for charity. They want us to just accept all this advertising. If I had a free ISP, I deserve the ads. However I pay for my ISP and so I don't get pop-up ads FROM MY ISP (I do get e-mail spam which I can deal with). I'm waiting for the collection plate to go around. Labonte18, you made my point for me.

unixadm quipped:
quote:
Be aware...advertising on the TiVo is here to stay....if you don't like it, then get rid of your Tivo and go back to life on Live TV.


What's the point of TiVo if they replace the ads I'm skipping over with their own?

unixadm's sig:
quote:
TiVo has forever changed the way I view TV!


I can't tell.

[This message has been edited by feldon23 (edited 11-13-2001).]

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FlashingTwelve is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:21 AM
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FlashingTwelve
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For those not aware of the agreement, "Luxury car manufacturer Lexus has signed with TiVo for an advertising deal through the personal TV company's service. The one-year agreement provides Lexus with thirty minutes of pre-loaded advertising content on TiVo recording units; a seat on the TiVo Advertising Advisory Board; branding opportunities through TiVolution Magazine and basic aggregate research data associated with TiVo advertising products."

2 minutes down, 28 to go. sigh.

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unixadm is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:23 AM
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unixadm
Moderator

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quote:
Originally posted by feldon23:
[B] unixadm quipped:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be aware...advertising on the TiVo is here to stay....if you don't like it, then get rid of your Tivo and go back to life on Live TV.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's the point of TiVo if they replace the ads I'm skipping over with their own?

[B]


I agree that the PTCM's have to go, but as TiVolutionary already posted: Thanks for the feedback. For the record, I would just assume we never send out a non-urgent-service-related-PTCM again

If they don't use PTCM's, then there is no ad that you have to skip. On commercial TV, you probably watch an hour show in 40 minutes with FF through commercials. That saves you 20 minutes of watching commercials. How much time are you wasting if there is an entry on TiVo Central and a group under Showcases? I believe that number would be zero. It takes you no time to NOT go into a menu item you don't want to. If you see the item and it interests you, then you could take some time to view it, but that is your choice.

So the point of TiVo is that you can still save about 20 minutes of viewing every hour, you can have Season Passes, you can have Wishlists, you can time shift shows, etc.

Again, as long as they don't use PTCM's then the sponsor's links waste zero amount of your time unless you choose to follow them. There is no point in getting rid of a TiVo because there are a few extra things on the screen that waste none of your time.



------------------
TiVo has forever changed the way I view TV!

Check out my Tivo Upgrade page...Has photos and instructions of upgrade.
http://www.tivoupgrade.info

To understand LNB's & Multiswitches, read this post:
<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/003608.html" TARGET=_blank>
LNB & Multiswitch Explaination</A>

<A HREF="http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum5/HTML/005640.html" TARGET=_blank>
Which Multiswitch and where to Buy </A>

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Sir_whinealot is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:23 AM
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Sir_whinealot
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Question

Wow. Over 12 pages on this subject now. Can you imagine what it would read like, if it was a more ominous subject? Hey...don't get me wrong, RB wanted our opinions, and he got 'em; and so much more. It's getting to the point of being silly now.

Department of Redundancy Department...can we help you?

Wonder if this is the reaction he expected from this? He said this was a "trial...." and people have actually said they've cancelled their subs because of this!

Amazing.

I love my TiVos, and so does my family...we really enjoy them. I don't have a problem with people who like the idea, or dislike the idea, but think many people are really over-reacting.

Oh well. I'm gonna go snuggle with the wife, and watch something on TV now.

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Ov1Ture is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:29 AM
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Ov1Ture
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Post

Lexus PR: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/011112/lam040_1.html

TV?? Oh, yeah... THAT's why I have a TiVo!! Later!
------------------
---------------------------------
What is it about the Silver ones?

[This message has been edited by Ov1Ture (edited 11-13-2001).]

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Guy Kuo is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:44 AM
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Guy Kuo
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Honestly I don't think the majority of TiVo users are terribly offended. Certainly, a few very vocal ones have been heard from here. I just hope they aren't effective enough to annoy Lexus. It's a whole lot easier to rile people up to call Lexus and complain than to get people to call up their Lexus dealerships and rave about a neat thing their manufacturer is trying with our favorite PVR. Somehow I fear that two or three complainers will get a lot more upstream feedback than even double the number of supportive calls. If this forum is a platform to urge people to complain, I think it is also is one which should be used to urge people to call Lexus dealerships and praise the effort as inventive. Personally, I think doing either goes way over the top in terms of reaction.

I think it is great that TiVo managed to pull this off. Do we let squeaky wheels deflect things too much and overall hurt more than help? This is a time when satisfied users need to chime in and be represented. Otherwise, anyone reading this thread will get a horribly imbalanced view of how this initiative is being received. In this instance there is a lot of harm in the satisfied remaining silent.

BTW, when is the darned version 3.0 upgrade going to come out?

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genearch is offline Old Post 11-14-2001 09:52 AM
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genearch
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: On The Air
Posts: 1768

Post

quote:
Originally posted by aphro:
...for those who point out replaytv and utv having ads as well. i will say that IF i had gotten either replaytv or utv(i dont have sattelite). and saw the ads and they bugged me even half as much as this one did(i suspect they would bug me more) i would of returned it the same day i bought it. i have used neither replaytv or utv.




a quick clarification on ReplayTV's "ads". As far as I remember, there has only been two. The first being a Rockwell type picture of Santa drinking a Coke, very innocent and not really an "AD" per se. As i understand the second was an announcement of the Replay 4000, I never saw that one myself. The ads only appeared after pausing live TV for several seconds.

I'll say the same for TiVo as I said for Replay back then.. big deal. Life goes on. Don't like it, sue and drain some more cash from Tivo and you'll live with UltimateTV and Replay as the only choices.

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Old Post 11-14-2001 10:05 AM
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tboydsto
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OK...long time lurker first time poster....

Overall Opinions


  • PTCM: NO. This is rude and to in-your-face. nuff said.
  • Menu Additions: NO. Adding advertisements to a functional interface is completely wrong. Functional interfaces need only functional items, especially in TiVo Central!
  • Email: NO. There is too much SPAM now and I don't need more.
  • Ads in Showcases: MAYBE. I struggle with this one. (See below)


Opinion on TiVo's Economic Strategy

I have read all posts in both threads and agree with points on both sides; however, I still don't like the idea of ads in TiVo. As stated, TiVo does not make money on the hardware, but does on the service. So, in my case, TiVo has a revenue stream of $120 ($9.95 a month) a year to provide me the following:


  • Software for my TiVo
  • TV Listings
  • Cable lineups
  • Customer Service


This is a reasonable fee for this type of service. I am paying for the recurring expenses for supporting/developing OS/software and delivering a guide. I would suspect that the guide data is almost free to TiVo, as it is to many Internet portals (yahoo, excite, etc). The OS is mostly free, because itís a UNIX variant. So, this boils down to a relational database that can update itself with data everyday with from the user in the form of preferences/season passes and from TiVo in the form of guide data.

Looking at generic relational database like Access or Filemaker, you will discover costs between $250 and $350 new. At first sight, $120/year does not cover the entire cost. Where does the balance of the non-recurring expenses (NRE) come from: TiVoís investors. So, I am only paying for recurring cost on the software. Returning to the database analogy, the yearly cost to maintain Access is $120 a year. Remember also that Access is a generic database, so there is actually more development involved with Access than with TiVo. I would suspect TiVo uses Oracle or something similar, which means they only have to write an Oracle app and GUI, which is not tremendously tough. So, I believe there is some profit built in a constant recurring revenue model that I am in ($9.95 a month).

Of course, this simplified analysis does not take into account the honking-database and support structure at TiVo itself, which can cost big bucks; however, this too is mostly NRE and is covered by the investors. Investors make money by absorbing risk. Their view is if enough people sign up then they can outstrip NRE and make a profit.

In a nutshell, I am paying a reasonable amount for this software. If TiVo wishes to include more ads than what is currently in Showcases, then my recurring cost should be lower, because TiVo would have an additional revenue streams above my recurring cost. In fact, the more ads added, the closer to $0 my recurring costs should be IMHO.

Personally, I believe TiVo made a big mistake allowing a one-time fee. One-time fees only guarantee revenue for a certain period of time. Eventually that stream will disappear, and TiVo must look for other ways to generate revenue. The only thing I can figure is that TiVo is betting that Moore's Law (technology doubling every 18 months) will force owners to buy replacement TiVo and another service contract. I donít see that happening on this board. In fact, IMHO, I believe the one-time fee is the whole reason we are seeing ads pop up now, because revenues are finally starting to drop-off from the one-time service contracts that started 2 years ago.

Oh well, I guess we have some choices to make:


  • Pay the one time fee, hold your TiVo forever, and get ads
  • Buy a new TiVo every 18 months and pay the one time with no ads
  • Buy a TiVo and pay $9.95 a month with no ads


I think itís as simple as that. This whole situation is really simple economics at work.


------------------
--
Ted

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