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>>> TiVo starts recording before changing channel -- result is X-rated video for children <<<

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mschwab is offline Old Post 12-07-2001 10:53 PM
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mschwab
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere in the Colorado Mountains, USA
Posts: 66

Exclamation

quote:
Originally posted by willard (excerpts):
Why doesn't tivo just fix it so the recorder doesn't start recording until the channel has been changed?

Why hasn't tivo just fixed this? How hard could it be?

They can fix this if they want to and I can't imagine why they would not want to.

I expect this to be fixed. If the product doesn't work properly the way it is sold, it should be fixed, and I am fairly certain this is not supposed to happen.

Perhaps nobody ever explained to you how the real world works

Why are people defending a mistake like this? There is no relational explanation.

I just got here, but I?ll not be staying, you?re just are not my type of people, and I know, right back at me, don?t let the door hit my ass on the way out and I?m raising my children wrong.



Well, given the cheerful tone of these five out of your six posts, it's hard to imagine why you might get a few negative responses!

Just in case you're still here, and for all others who always seem to believe that their pet fixes should be implemented immediately, here's a lesson in how the real world works, as far as TiVo updates.

TiVo doesn't do quick fixes. They seem to take about a year or more. Here's some examples:

- 2.0 was announced in a press release (January 2000, I think), and was finally released at the end of September).

- DirecTV Plus locals took nearly a year between the time we first starting complaining and the fix was released (I think - my memory is faulty on this one).

- We've been complaining about needing 4-digit channels for Dish for a year and a half at least (I believe), and, as Richard has announced, that feature is just now in beta.

Why does it take so long? Well, start with the fact that TiVo is a small company, has a small development staff, and it's getting smaller as they go through layoffs. Features have to be developed, tested internally, then beta tested, before they can be released (usually a bunch of features are released together).

Therefore, they have to EXTREMELY prioritize the list of changes they make, and focus on those that give the most bang for the development buck, even if, as badcrc says, it takes only "A couple hours of development time diverted to make thousands of people happier", and I suspect both ends of that equation are very exagerated.

------------------
-- TiVo FAQ Editor: www.tivofaq.com

[This message has been edited by mschwab (edited 12-07-2001).]

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HTH is offline Old Post 12-07-2001 10:54 PM
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HTH
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by CoosCoos:
Well, I hope you never get a car with ABS because that is just too clever.


I have no problems with devices that are clever. It is those that try to be too clever, because they tend to fail and prevent me from doing things I should be able to do. If I want to hear white noise blaring from my speakers, I don't want my stereo deciding against me to mute it. I know what I doing; I want get signal.

------------------


Timor non suffocabit res novas.

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CoosCoos is offline Old Post 12-07-2001 11:56 PM
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CoosCoos
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
I have no problems with devices that are clever. It is those that try to be too clever


After reading your posts, I don't think you should be the judge of what's clever.

BTW - Look at the word "clever" and say it aloud a few times. It's one of those words that don't seem like a real word!


------------------
Cous cous is the food.
CoosCoos is your online hero.

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Ereth is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 03:07 AM
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Ereth
MMM..Strawberry!

Registered: Jun 2000
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Post

Perhaps its more complicated than you supposed. Perhaps adding the exact amount of time someone suggested will fix the problem for a small portion of the people, but not for everyone, simply because all the converters are different. Perhaps the number of variables involved is quite large, and the testing to get all the converters somewhat reliably changing at roughly the same time, quite lengthy.

Perhaps TiVo could have a programmer spend some time on this, and a small handful of people would be very happy, but everybody else would be in here yelling about how the "Delay before changing channels fix" didn't work for them.

Those of you who insist it's a simple fix, write the code and submit it to TiVo (make sure to bug fix it first). I'm sure they'd be happy to get your solution and if it really worked, it would probably make the next update (summer of next year? fall?)

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dgh is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 03:21 AM
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dgh
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
That's like expecting your computer to wait until the print job is finished before doing anything else.


Hmm, I guess I'm finding the analogies on both sides to be somewhat lacking. I think a better analogy in this space would be:

It's like expecting that if you queue multiple jobs to your printer, each job starts on a new page - No job ever starts with the last few lines of the previous job.

By the way, many printers can tell you when their buffer is empty. Sure some don't but that's probably because the printer developer couldn't see how the state of his buffer related to anything going on in the computer. The computer can just serialize jobs and put the appropriate "new page" command in between jobs to do the right thing. Perhaps the designer of the IR circuit assumed the same but now we know better. In this case the computer (TiVo) is sending output which controls TiVo's input. The two have and need tighter coupling than a computer and printer. However, it's also valid to point out that while the coupling can be better, the nature of IR and legacy receivers can prevent it from being perfect.

The problem here is that some people are arguing about how it should work and other people are arguing about implementation difficulties. These arguments can go on indefinitely. (As they often do within the development group itself.)

Anyway this was probably in TiVo's bug tracking system two years ago.


------------------
Dave Hicks
(Just 33 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated too.)

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:01 AM
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MighTiVo
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Registered: Oct 2000
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
The delay in IR transmission does not originate in the TiVo software; it originates in the microcontroller for the IR emitter.


NO!!!!!

I can not believe you think I am this dense and I can not believe you are as dense as it seems you are...

Most of your post was absolutely useless and obvious information. It has nothing to do with the discussion here.

Back to what seems obvious to me but some how you are completely lost!

TiVo has an IR setup screen where you define how much delay to add when sending IR. It does know and is complete control!

All I ask is that TiVo accounts for this known delay when starting a recording.

All the other delay (microcontroller, length of wire, speed of light, temperature of the moon, sunspots, neighbors CB radio, etc.) is completely outside the scope of this conversation and a waste of time.



[This message has been edited by MighTiVo (edited 12-07-2001).]

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HTH is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:11 AM
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HTH
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Angry

quote:
Originally posted by dgh:
Hmm, I guess I'm finding the analogies on both sides to be somewhat lacking.


It would help if you knew that what I was analogizing was the peripheral nature of the IR microcontroller to a printer and intentionally leaving the recordings out of it as immaterial to the point I was making. I'm trying to set MighTiVo straight regarding his huge assumptions with his phrases like "delay it creates", "delay should obviously change", "purposefully takes longer", and "knows exactly what it has done". They're all basic misconceptions formed out of ignorance of the relationship with the TiVo and the IR microcontroller.

It's not the TiVo recording too soon; it's the IR microcontroller transmitting too late, and that they are separate components with independent timetables for process completion.

"Perfect analogy" is an oxymoron and people should stop insisting on them.

(It doesn't help that this thread is premised on a couple naked boobies for 3 seconds on HBO being considered "X-rated video". The thread was designed to be inflammatory from conception.)

------------------


Timor non suffocabit res novas.

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:14 AM
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MighTiVo
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I just don't know what to say.....

I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT talking about inherent delay cause by the hardware (microseconds) or external influences (unknown)!!!!!!!!!

I am SPECIFICALLY talking about the delay that is intentionally introduced to accommodate external systems that can not contend with the IR being sent too fast.....

(If it will help you keep from making comparisons to systems that are completely unrelated to help me understand; I am a programmer in assembly, C, C++, and untold scripting languages, as well as an electrical engineer. I have designed and programmed microcontrollers including the use of IR communications equipment using FSK, ASK, PCM, PWM, etc.)


[This message has been edited by MighTiVo (edited 12-07-2001).]

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badcrc is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:26 AM
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badcrc
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by mschwab:
Therefore, they have to EXTREMELY prioritize the list of changes they make, and focus on those that give the most bang for the development buck, even if, as badcrc says, it takes only "A couple hours of development time diverted to make thousands of people happier", and I suspect both ends of that equation are very exagerated.



I don't know about the person you were replying to, but I totally understand this fix might not take a couple hours, who knows except tivo. But if you're denying there's thousands of people using cable boxes, you must be living in fantasy land. And as I've said, I'm not even suggesting this should be fixed immediately, I realize tivo is probably doing all they can with their resources. What I have a problem with are the people arguing that this issue shouldn't even be put on tivo's todo list and coming up with nutty arguments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The fix for this has nothing to do with the IR transmitter hardware or channel changing.

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dgh is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:35 AM
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dgh
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
They're all basic misconceptions formed out of ignorance of the relationship with the TiVo and the IR microcontroller.

"Perfect analogy" is an oxymoron and people should stop insisting on them.



Perfect analogy may be an oxymoron but that analogy just seemed too poor to make sense to me. Sorry. Frequently one has to be aware of timing issues in peripherals. As for ignorance, I can't really tell if anyone in this thread knows what's really going on.

Perhaps it's partly a semantics problem. When I say "it" I mean the whole TiVo box. I don't consider TiVo to be some bits of the box that have trouble getting along with some other non-TiVo bits that somehow got thrown into the same box. It sounds like you take a much more narrow view of "it".


------------------
Dave Hicks
(Just 33 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated too.)

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Old Post 12-08-2001 04:51 AM
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arjay
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by dgh:
As for ignorance, I can't really tell if anyone in this thread knows what's really going on.

Perhaps it's partly a semantics problem. When I say "it" I mean the whole TiVo box. It sounds like you take a much more narrow view of "it".



Does anyone really know what time it is? It depends on what the definition of it is!

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dgh is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 04:53 AM
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dgh
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Registered: Jul 2000
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
Does anyone really know what time it is? It depends on what the definition of it is!


Indeed. I knew we'd have to debate the definition of "it" sooner or later

------------------
Dave Hicks
(Just 33 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated too.)

[This message has been edited by dgh (edited 12-07-2001).]

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HTH is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 05:04 AM
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HTH
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by MighTiVo:
I am SPECIFICALLY talking about the delay that is intentionally introduced to accommodate external systems that can not contend with the IR being sent too fast.....


And that has nothing to do with when TiVo "starts recording" the show. TiVo tells the IR microcontroller what to send at what rate and leaves it to it. It does not communicate with the IR microcontroller at the same rate it wants the microcontroller to communicate with the controlled device.

When it "starts recording", it has indeed finished sending all the commands to the IR microcontroller. I'd have to do a video sample and count frames, but I'm fairly certain the IR microcontroller starts transmitting the commands in less than 0.1 seconds. (Or at least that's when my cable box starts to slide in its banner.)

Now, you're talking about the delay the TiVo is commanding the IR microcontroller to introduce(*) and having the software account for this time in determining when a recording starts. Barring a handshaking protocol, this would involve the TiVo independently waiting the same amount of time it instructed the IR microcontroller to incorporate in its IR transmission. I agree that this would give a minimum time for TiVo to wait before assuming the channel change was complete, but that won't change the facts that other influences can make it take longer, that new handshaking hardware can only provide a better estimate, and that a perfect solution cannot be achieved with IR control of the current crop of cable boxes. (We'd all love to have serially controlled cable boxes.)

And with the hyperbole in the topic of this thread, the goal apparent is a perfect solution. ("Won't someone please think of the children!") And accordingly, I'd expect TiVo may consider nothing but a perfect solution.

Now here's an idea: instead of trying to adhere to such a critical timing issue, if there isn't a back-to-back recording issue, why not just issue the channel change a minute earlier. We already warn the user about a pending automatic channel change, even if he isn't present to respond, 2 minutes before the change, timing out 1 minute later. If it times out, it could send the change immediately, 1 minute before the start of the show to be made into a recording. With nothing before and no user present wanting to watch the current channel to the very last minute possible, being early would be much better than being late, no?

All that would be left is timing the video blackout for the start of the recording to ensure a clean sampling.

Well, I hope that's over with!

(*) Which, for all automatic channel changes, is always at the slow speed for the sake of accuracy, BTW. The higher speeds are only used when channel surfing when speed becomes more important and the user is in a position to deal with inaccuracy.

------------------


Timor non suffocabit res novas.

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MighTiVo is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 05:14 AM
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MighTiVo
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Registered: Oct 2000
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
(*) Which, for all automatic channel changes, is always at the slow speed for the sake of accuracy, BTW. The higher speeds are only used when channel surfing when speed becomes more important and the user is in a position to deal with inaccuracy.



I am convinced now that you have no clue what you are talking about!

This is absolutely NOT true, recall my previous post:
IR Fast - Add 1 sec additional delay
IR Med - Add 2 sec additional delay
IR Slow - Add 3 sec additional delay

This suggestion is because the IR Fast/Med/Slow IR speed is indeed used when changing channels before a recording.

It appears that a complete lack of understand of the phenomena may be the source of your crazy posts.

Before you return, try this at home.
Or should I record an example for you....


[This message has been edited by MighTiVo (edited 12-07-2001).]

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mostman is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 05:40 AM
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mostman
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Post

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
No, you'd be able to do those things first if the IR bus allowed simultaneous bidirectional transfer. It doesn't, so the fact that you can't does not measure multithreadedness, only that the TiVo can't listen to your remote's IR chatter while it's talking in IR to the cable/sat box.




Good point.
-Mike



------------------
Star Trek - Dark Beer - Linux - TiVo
What the hell else do you need?

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 10:59 PM
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feldon23
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Registered: Mar 2001
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Posts: 1821

Post

quote:
If the product doesn't work properly the way it is sold, it should be fixed, and I am fairly certain this is not supposed to happen.


quote:
And if a product is unacceptable to you the day it is sold, you should return it. That's what return periods are for. If you want to hold on to it and take the chance that it might be altered to suit you, that's your choice but don't hold your breath.


Where's the disclaimer in the manual or on the box "Warning: TiVo won't even try to estimate how long channel changes make before starting to record, so if you were on an adult channel before TiVo switches to a kid's show, you will see adult material in front. Sorry, not our problem."

To me, under the parental controls screen, it should have a "Safer Channel Changes" toggle that tries to use the speed (Fast, Medium, Slow) you've set your cable/sat box to as a guideline to delay the recording 3, 6, or 9 seconds. You'll still get the other channel in front sometimes but not as often.

Someone give me a good excuse why this can't be added. Then someone at TiVo tell me why this would take more than 3 days to code and test.

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 11:09 PM
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feldon23
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Registered: Mar 2001
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Post

quote:
HTH erroneously tried to make the analogy:
A computer does not send each letter to be printed on a dot matrix printer character by character at the same speed that it is printed. It fires off as much of the document it can to the printer which buffers the data, stopping only when the printer says that its buffer is full, whereupon the printer is controlling the computer's rate of transmission.


I must have a really amazing computer, because not only do I have a status bar that fills up with printing is complete, but the background printing icon disappears from my system tray shortly before printing completes.

So try another analogy since the one you picked is horsesh*t.

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 12-08-2001 11:11 PM
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feldon23
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Post

quote:
Why does it take so long? Well, start with the fact that TiVo is a small company, has a small development staff, and it's getting smaller as they go through layoffs. Features have to be developed, tested internally, then beta tested, before they can be released (usually a bunch of features are released together).

Therefore, they have to EXTREMELY prioritize the list of changes they make, and focus on those that give the most bang for the development buck, even if, as badcrc says, it takes only "A couple hours of development time diverted to make thousands of people happier", and I suspect both ends of that equation are very exagerated.


TiVo managed to tuck in things like VBR and Skip to Tick into the standalone which most of us didn't even expect. Might "Safer Channel Changes" take a long time to add? Perhaps.

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pv is offline Old Post 12-09-2001 12:53 AM
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pv
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Worst thread ever! PV

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BrettStah is offline Old Post 12-09-2001 01:39 AM
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BrettStah
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First, HTH mentioned a great, and probably easier, solution... have the Tivo change channels a little earlier than it does now. Maybe merge it with MighTivo's suggestion, and have the time the channel changes depend upon the FAST, MEDIUM, or SLOW IR speed selected. Of course, back-to-back recordings couldn't use this, unless you'd be willing to lose that same amount of time from the end of recordings.

Alternatively, being an amateur programmer, here are some guesses about the Tivo software. The current blackout period is (or can easily be) configured via a variable. On the parental controls screen, add an option called "Hiding View of Channel Changes". Decide what the maximum amount of delay is necessary based on the cable boxes supported (8 seconds?), and divide that evenly by 5 or 10. Then, let the user scroll through these values (or simply a numbered list from 0-5 or 10). Now, my guess (definitely could be wrong), is that doing this in the next software update shouldn't add much total development time, compared to the rest of the update.

------------------
Brett
<FONT size="1">
To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
</FONT s>

[This message has been edited by BrettStah (edited 12-08-2001).]

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>>> TiVo starts recording before changing channel -- result is X-rated video for children <<<

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