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>>> Tivo, Best Buy, telemarketers, the FTC, and $500 in your pocket. <<<

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turls is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:44 AM
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turls
Advanced Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 744

Re: Re: Tivo, Best Buy, telemarketers, the FTC, and $500 in your pocket.

Depending on what state he is in, he very well may have himself on "do not call" lists as he states. Doesn't have much to do with his argument anyway, but the FTC doesn't even have a "do not call" list that I know of. I know of doing it through a branch of the Direct Marketing Association, and through State Attorney Generals. As far as a "national" no call list (which should be an unnecessary duplication of government)--the FTC web page specifically states it is just a proposal right now.

quote:
Originally posted by lordsutch
"Do Not Call" statutes wouldn't apply to TiVo anyway, since they have already established a business relationship with you.

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Relax, its only TV. . .then what am I doing wasting time on a forum like this and spending hundreds of dollars on glorified VCR's?

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steuert is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:44 AM
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steuert
TivoGeezer

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1711

I too resent ANY advertising foisted off on me by TiVo or anybody else. Although I can live with the few incursions along this line currently being made by TiVo, God knows what might happen if they are deemed to be successful. Has anyone heard of an ad campaign that became less obnoxious over time? How long before we see pop-ups, banner ads, and other irritating devices? After all, we PAY for TiVo service and ought to be spared such nuisances.

However, it does not seem you are likely to get much help from the FTC. Their regulations were intended to restrain telemarketers who call you up with annoying pitches at inconvenient times; making an analogy between this and TiVo's automatic calls and downloads is quite a stretch.

Also, as mentioned above, it is hard to understand how the ads could be causing your unit to hang. If TiVo suggested you return the unit for repair,
they too evidently think there is something else wrong. Maybe you could talk them into sending a replacement unit first, provided you make a refundable deposit to guarantee that you will indeed return your box.

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andyf is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:49 AM
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andyf
Long time TiVo user

Registered: Feb 2000
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 305

Yes there is an alternative. You can go watch different ads on Replay or Ultimate TV.

Even if you got Dish Networks and used their PVR, I've seen ads on their Dish Home page.

Just like spam, you're not going to be able to get away from advertising. It's always been there and in one form or another it always will as long as we live in a free democratic (capitalistic?) society.

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Mike_4462 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:53 AM
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Mike_4462
Advanced Member

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Copperopolis, CA. USA
Posts: 23

That part that bothers me, is that we pay quite a bit of money for a product and service, and up until 3.0 we were forced to see a spam message before we could use our TiVo. Then of course they will use our viewing info they collect on our dime with long distance calls to make some money. Once the 1800 number is gone, I urge everone to opt out of having their viewing info collected as a protest against what they did...

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Jim Lash is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:54 AM
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Jim Lash
Member-Fall 2000

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Centreville, VA USA
Posts: 11

Class action lawsuits bother me. That's just what we need, a class action lawsuit. Enough of those and all any of has will be an expensive doorstop. The only people who make money from those are the lawyers. The people would be lucky to get $10.

It would be stupid to pad the lawyers bank accounts, and make this product obsolete.

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:56 AM
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dgh
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1902

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont
Imagine if you bought a car and part of the trunk was inaccessible.


Part of mine is. The navigation system and the subwoofer are taking up space in there. The only thing you can put in the Navigation system is DVDs from the manufacturer.

Have you done a full analysis of your car to make sure all space was allocated in the way you desire - or did you look at the trunk and the trunk specs and decided that it was large enough? Most people buy TiVo's based on their advertised capacity, not based on the raw capacity of the disk.

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c3 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:59 AM
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c3
TiVoholic

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 416

quote:
Originally posted by Mike_4462
up until 3.0 we were forced to see a spam message before we could use our TiVo.


huh?

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Mike_4462 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:03 AM
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Mike_4462
Advanced Member

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Copperopolis, CA. USA
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by c3


huh?



PTCM

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Belmont is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:32 AM
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Belmont
New Member

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1

I feel that some of you just don't get it... And I am sure you are shaking your head right back at me say, "He just doesn't get it...."

This is really a question of choice. When I bought my Tivo I got it for two reasons: 1) It made recording TV shows very easy. 2) It made by passing commericals in TV shows easier.

I own my Sony unit. Not Tivo, not anyone else but me.

I've got a landscaping service that takes care of my yard. I pay them a few for a service--four times a month they come to my house and take care of the grounds. I do not pay them to provide--nor do I want any other services from them. This is analogus, to me, of the channel lineup subscription service I paid $250 for Tivo to provide. If after the landscapers did there work, they left but Chem Lawn advertisements had been spray painted on my lawn I'd be furious. Would it be ok if the landscapers replyed that someone offered them extra money to put the promotional material on my property? Would it be ok if they told me, "I know the deal was for XXX, but that is not quite enough money, so we are subsidisded by Chem Lawn?" They could also argue--the grass will grow and the promotional material will be gone. Or how about if the promo material was only displayed on the part of your lawn that borders the road--grass that technically belongs to the city.

Is it ok when I walk though Wal-Mart that my kid asks for a Sheryl Crow album? When you ask why, she says, "Because she has a star next to her name when I watched SpongeBob SquarePants this morning." Personally--I don't think so.

I bought Tivo so I could control what I watch on television. I did not know Tivo would be want to have a say in what is recorded to my Sony SVR-2000.

What comes next? Will we be getting messages from the Republican Party that the Democratic canidate is worthless? Who controls what gets sent to my Tivo? My impression when buying the Tivo was I had full control of the content. I was told Tivo had the option of recording suggested shows but that is could be turned off. I have the option turned off--yet the ads keep coming....

dgh brought up a great counterpoint. I'm heading over the GM boards now! Somebody better put a stop to them before the OnStar starts boinging everytime you drive by a MacDonalds! (How about a room in your house that your Realtor said you couldn't use, they are going to be renting out that room to the highest bidder every month...)

Thanks for the spirited debate folks. Jim L pointed out another good fact--who want to see Tivo have to pay out a huge settlement and then go out of business--I know I don't! My only interest is controling the media that comes into my house. Give me an option to turn it off. Charge me more per month for updates. Just keep the ads off my Tivo!

(All this typing has gotten me so worked up I'm just going to get a second Tivo tomorrow and get my current one fixed. Maybe once I have a unit that doesn't hang I won't get so upset over the ads. )

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jsmeeker is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:37 AM
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jsmeeker
Big know-it-all

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas (or L.A.)
Posts: 15821

I do get it. I bought a 30 hour TiVo unit. A sony. I get 30 hours worth of it.

You do control the media that comes into your house. You can xhoose not to watche the ads. That is simple. Also, you can choose to record something when the TiVo "ads" are broadcast on the Discovery channelt

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Maui is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:39 AM
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Maui
The Eternal Newbie

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2102

I've just never understood how difficult it really is to not watch the ad?

I can understand being upset over the machine hanging.

But a line of text with a star next to it that I can easily choose to ignore is not something to raise my bloodpressure over.

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GBL is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:41 AM
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GBL
covert opiniative

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 570

Belmont,

I'm glad you took the time to clearly explain your position - it's much more sympathetic than your initial post!

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 07:08 AM
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dgh
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1902

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont
Idgh brought up a great counterpoint. I'm heading over the GM boards now! Somebody better put a stop to them before the OnStar starts boinging everytime you drive by a MacDonalds! (How about a room in your house that your Realtor said you couldn't use, they are going to be renting out that room to the highest bidder every month...)



My Navi system already suggests restaurants - but it never boings - but I don't think TiVo boings either. However, the system cost a lot more than TiVo plus I have to pay again for new maps. That's the thing about TiVo - it was a subsidized box. I knew that but I can tell that you didn't. I'm not sure exactly where the responsibility for knowing that lies.

As for the house - yes indeed, when the you go through that huge stack of papers at closing, you better make sure you understand what you're buying. Part of the legal description of my property contains "thence along an arc of a 50.00 foot radius curve to the right, the long chord of which bears South 60.03'40" East 35.74 feet, ..." Oh my...

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(Now only 31 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated!)

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lordsutch is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 07:09 AM
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lordsutch
He's also a client!

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
Posts: 76

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont
Give me an option to turn it off.


Ok. Set a manual recording for 3-4 a.m. every Monday on a channel other than Discovery Channel. Voila, no more Sheryl Crow. Of course, then you'll have a TiVo full of commercials for spray-on hair...

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vanguard is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 07:45 AM
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vanguard
Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 6

Belmont,

I've agreed with your argument from the first post. I think it stinks that they are using my DVR to produce extra revenue. Really, I thought that when I paid for a lifetime subscription that Tivo was done making money off of me. Now I see that they are planning on selling me to their advertisers. I'm surprised to see that so many people are ok with this.

I like my Tivo and I want them to stay in business. That's one of the reasons that I bought a USB network adapter. I read that it saves them money. However, I don't want to be sold out to advertisers.

The "look away" argument doesn't work either. I'm paying them for guide data and I feel like they are abusing my relationship by selling me out.

Again, I want Tivo to stay in business and I like the tool but I don't want to be sold out.

Vanguard

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spartanstew is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 08:40 AM
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spartanstew
AKA WoohooStew

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Wylie, Texas
Posts: 3716

I just don't get it. I've read this junk for a few weeks now and don't see the big deal. My wife uses the tivo as much as I do, and she doesn't even know there is a Cheryl Crow video, or a Best Buy advertisement or anything else. I wouldn't have known about them if it wasn't for this forum. We never even go to that screen. Today I went there, saw the "star" for the first time and ignored it.
Tivo could download (or record) 1000 hours of commercials if they wanted to. Nobody is forcing me to watch them. Most people that own tivos (excluding those on this board, of course), don't even know this stuff is on there.

tivo apologist (apparently).

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controlio is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 08:56 AM
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controlio
Advanced Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Garden City, MI, USA
Posts: 29

quote:
Originally posted by vanguard
Again, I want Tivo to stay in business and I like the tool but I don't want to be sold out.


mmMMmmMmmMMmmMMMmmmMMm... there's that buzz word again... "sell out"...

The phrase "sell out" should be reserved for very special circumstances. An example of this would be Eminem.

Now seriously... if you're bothered by anonymous data mining, you can opt out of it by calling TiVo. Personally, I LIKE IT... if it starts getting used by ratings services, it gives me empowerment to cancel all of the stupid shows that are on TV nowadays, and to support the creative and intelligent shows I'm so accustomed to watching (South Park, Jackass, etc).

The ads are fine with me. They help subsidize the operating expenses of TiVo, and TiVo doesn't force me to look at them. When TiVo finally breaks even or becomes profitable, I might change my mind... but for now, I have no problem with it. Especially since there's two well-known ways to get rid of the ads... one is a TCL script that expires the ad, the other is just simply recording something else in that time slot. Trust me, if TiVo wanted to, they could make it a LOT worse on us than they do. The fact that we're nitpicking these things and not other major problems or annoyances with our TiVo units should make you realize that TiVo is doing something right.

Oh... and as far as the original post in this thread, most of what has been said is very true, and you should really read up on telecommunications law. You have an established business relationship with TiVo, and you call them and not vice versa. Also, the ads can be terminated at your request at any time, by either not using the TiVo equipment, or by unsubscribing the service and continuing or not continuing to use the TiVo equipment. Neither of the above is unreasonable, thus you don't have any hope in a court of law. There are also several minor details which invalidate your claim, but the biggest and most important problem with your complaint is the established business relationship, as it invalidates your argument in several classifications that don't even include phone calls (or telemarketing). But again, they don't call you, nor do they make unsolicited calls to you... so you'd need to find a better legal angle.

(ianal... but I got an A in telecomm law 425. )

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Last edited by controlio on 06-03-2002 at 09:07 AM

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grmmog is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 09:05 AM
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grmmog
New Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1

If you don't want a little star on your TiVo then you shouldn't have signed up for the service. You signed up for the TiVo service and I'm sure somewhere in the agreement, that you should have read, it says that they can put ads on the system. TiVo is a company and they're going to try to make money. If you don't want to watch ads then don't. If you don't like the way TiVo does business there are many other companies offering rival products.

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Pan Chun is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 09:08 AM
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Pan Chun
Gone now

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 149

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont
I'll be the first to admit I'm not a Tivo expert.
Part of the problem is acting as though you have all the answers. Did you really think we'd be sympathetic to someone who stood in the middle of the TiVo board and declared "Here's what is wrong with all of you who accept X and I am going to save you all from yourselves!"
quote:
I have no intention of letting Tivo out of their contract. Contracts involve two parties. I just forced a call and it took 28 minutes. More than television listings are being retrieved. 56K allows the retrieval of 1MB of data in 8 minutes, right? Apparently many of you find receiving unsolicited promotional material enjoyable. I don’t want Tivo to take that away from you. I only want them to stop sending it to me.
Since you earlier stated you're no expert, why cement the point with inaccuracies? TiVo modems are not 56k...and even if they were, no standard phone line supports a 56k transfer. Guide data is downloaded, anonymous viewership data is uploaded, any appropriate Showcase or TiVolution Magazine content is delivered, and, since there is a software rollout underway, you MAY be getting a software upgrade. THAT'S what's in the phone call. No video information. Zero. Believe me, if you WERE receiveing video over the phone line of ANY LENGTH, it would take considerably longer than 28mins at that baud rate!
quote:
Me asking with one voice to technical support would never be heard. A letter from an attorney will get attention, but would it bring change—doubtful.
I'm thinking it would get put up on the company bulletin board as the joke of the week.
quote:
What about a couple class action law suits from a few states or the little attention from the FTC—do you think that would make Tivo ads optional? It worked on Microsoft...
STATE GOVERNMENTS brought lawsuits against M$...it took YEARS OF LITIGATION by multiple Attorneys General and it's all STILL in doubt. Please don't even THINK of correlating this little complaint against the M$ case, 'cause they're not even SLIGHTLY on the same level.
quote:
I paid for a lifetime subscription to update the channel listing on my Tivo not to become a captive audience.
You also mentioned that you paid a lot of a money for a TiVo unit that is yours and yours alone and that you alone should determine how it is used. Point of fact: You DO NOT OWN the software that makes your TiVo work. You may THINK you do, but you do not. As such, the TiVo service IS whatever TiVo the Company DECIDES it is. Check your service agreement...you DID read it ALL, didn't you? It's quite explicit.
quote:
From the Standalone Service agreement
Title to Software and Intellectual Property. You may need to use certain software programs to use or have full access to certain features of the TiVo Service. You received certain software with the purchase of the TiVo authorized product and other software programs may be provided to you by TiVo from time to time. Your use of such software is subject to the terms of this agreement. TiVo retains title to and ownership of all the TiVo software and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo authorized product. TiVo also retains ownership of all TiVo copyrights and trademarks. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the authorized product or software of this system is strictly prohibited.
See? You DON'T own what you THOUGHT you owned. It pays to actually READ the agreement BEFORE you accept it...
quote:
I’m curious how the supporters of the Tivo ads feel about spam email? Is it OK if the next promotional video is for the next Osbournes’ series? How about for a Marilyn Manson video?
Spam email: Fact of life. Junk snailmail: Fact of life. Osbournes promo? Bring it on--it's one of the funniest shows on TV. Marilyn Manson video? As easily ignored as Sheryl Crow's. Or maybe I'd watch it. Nice to have options.

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Kaokulk is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 09:27 AM
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Kaokulk
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Indiana, USA, Earth
Posts: 121

OK, it's obvious that this guy was a little confused, but hopefully we are helping him understand what's going on.

On the "I-paid-for-this-service-so-why-am-I-getting-ads" topic, I have one question:

Every month I pay Comcast extra for a digital cable box to get extra channels. EVERY TIME I CHANGE CHANNELS, pull up a menu, look to see what I'm recording, or ANY FRICKIN THING, I get advertisements... not a little star, big boxes that take up space on the menu function.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not on the welfare cable system, I'm paying extra for this. How is this any different than Tivo?

Because it's worse!

But you know what? I've got better things to do than completely freak out about it. I HAVE A LIFE... (well, I did til I started spending all my time on this board! ). I have never once called to complain about it.

-----

As for the telemarketer thread -

1. That law was not intended for data calls, it was intended for person to person (or machine to person calls). And as had been pointed out, YOU are making the call.

2. All those ads are getting to your Tivo through the Teleworld Paid Programming show on the Discovery Channel. I know, I would LIKE to get those ads. I can't get them because Comcast doesn't show Teleworld - it replaces it with their own ads. I have NEVER gotten an ad on my Tivo. You want to be like me? Move to an area that Comcast controls.

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>>> Tivo, Best Buy, telemarketers, the FTC, and $500 in your pocket. <<<

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