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>>> Tivo, Best Buy, telemarketers, the FTC, and $500 in your pocket. <<<

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Norm_bone is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 03:49 PM
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Norm_bone
Lord of the Turkeys

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by Mike_4462
What if Microsoft forced you to change OS's in your computer everytime a newer version was available at the expense of a long distance call if no local numbers where available?

And then put ads on your PC's wallpaper every time you booted it up. I don't think you would be very accepting of that, yet this is the exact same thing TiVo does... [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd be _happy_ if MS upgraded my OS when a newer version was available for the expense of a long distance call. That would be support, and customer service. What in fact they (want to) do is charge me ninety or a hundred bucks when they try to force me to change OSes.

quote:
And then put ads on your PC's wallpaper every time you booted it up. I don't think you would be very accepting of that, yet this is the exact same thing TiVo does...

They don't? Granted, you can change the wallpaper, but doesn't the default wallpaper plug Microsoft? For that matter, when I had a Sega console, it showed the manufacurer before the game started, and I'd be shocked if that doesn't still happen with XBoxes or Gamecubes. In fact, most of the computer games I can think of had splash screens for the publishers and designers- _taking up my hard drive space_! How dare they!

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Norm_bone is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 04:12 PM
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Norm_bone
Lord of the Turkeys

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by tim99



I am not sure I understand such a black and white approach. For example, some people don't like that they lose the buffer when they change the channel, others are unhappy because Tivo hasn't added a free space meter.

So do you feel that everyone who is unhappy about STILL not having a free space meter should sell their tivo to make their point?

Keeping with your logic, shouldn't everyone who finds something about tivo they don't like sell them to make a point?

I am just not sure how you feel this is going to help Tivo or the customer.



Your choice of actions aren't limited to "Do nothing but sing the praises of Tivo," and "Sell the Tivo because you're unhappy." It's a continuum, including:

Do nothing.
Complain on the Tivo Board.
Write to the company.
.
.
.
Sell your Tivo.
Make a legal claim under Telemarketing theory.
Create a class action suit.
etc.

I can sympathize with those who are bothered by the ads. I would favor an opt-out (or even better, opt-in) model. However, I think starting off this thread with a (seemingly nonsensical) proposal to file a claim against Tivo, and then claiming later that you couldn't return to regular TV is waffling. S**t or get off the pot. If the advertizing is so harmful, so impossible to ignore, that is lawsuit-worthy, then surely it is too dangerous to keep around.

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cwerdna is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 04:26 PM
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cwerdna
Proud Tivolutionary

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 261

if you don't like it...

Belmont,

Tivo still isn't making any money. Take a look at Tivo's financials at http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=tivo&d=v1. The ads and promotions are a way of them bringing in revenue so which will help keep them afloat and hopefully to a point where they can make a profit.

Given the choices a) Tivo goes under or b) I put up w/limited promos on the main menu and videos that take up no USER space (only reserved space), I'd rather take b. I don't know what's the deal w/your stability problems, my Sony and Philips SA Tivos have never hung. I've owned the former for >1 year.

If you really don't like what Tivo is doing, get rid of your Tivo and find another PVR which is more to your liking.

__________________
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Norm_bone is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 04:28 PM
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Norm_bone
Lord of the Turkeys

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by tim99



You are exactly right, it is about choice, but there is a strong anti-choice contingent. Fear not, you ‘get it’ just fine. It’s just that as hard as it is for you to believe there are people here who are against your right to choose what content you receive.

[...inflammatory rhetoric...]

Here are a few examples of the anti-choice argument and things to keep in mind when you hear them.

Ads are not taking up any of the space that your tivo was advertised to have. A 30 hour tivo is still a 30 hour tivo

While this seems to be true, it is also irrelevant to the issue of choice. Best I can tell the argument is predicated on the fact that just because you didn't know you had extra space means that it is not yours once you find out about it. I often wonder if one of these people bought a 3 pack of t-shirts and found later than it contained a 4th would they write 'Fruit of the Loom' across the front of the extra one. In any case, show these people your sales receipt. It is yours, they are just against you having any choice as to what is done with it.


Actually, I think that's a pretty good example. Say you did buy a 3 pack of t-shirts, and instead recieved 4, but one of them had "Fruit of the Loom" printed on the front. As I understand it, you do not have the legal right to have the fourth shirt replaced. The package claimed to have 3 shirts. You have three "in-specification" shirts. You can keep the fourth out of spec. one, but FOTL isn't obligated to replace it for you. Granted, in the real case of a Tivo you can't throw out the fourth shirt and keep the three, but similarly, FOTL isn't forcing you to wear the fourth one. (That would cross the line, IMO.) Alternatively, you can return the entire package of shirts.

A better analogy was suggested though; easments. You bought a Tivo that had an "easment" of so much hard drive space for software and ads. In the same way that you don't regain title to the easment in real estate when you discover its existance, you don't have a right to claim the reserved space. Similarly, (Sorry to say it,) the fact that Belmont didn't realize that an some hard drive space would be reserved for ads is Belmont's fault for not doing dilligent research. This was known 6 months ago.

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Xaa is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 05:03 PM
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Xaa
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 1439

These things are funny. He enters into a service agreement with Tivo, lives up to his end of it, Tivo live up to their end, and now he wants to change it. Well, Tivo would give you up as a customer before they will modify their agreement with you, and your choice is to give them up as a service if modifying the agreement is the only thing that will make you happy.

You agreed to the service agreement, now either live with it, or cancel the agreement via service cancellation.

Xaa

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Pan Chun is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:08 PM
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Pan Chun
Gone now

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 149

BTW, I love the way the newbies try and shine a glaring spotlight on those of us with high postcounts, like it means we are some sort of TiVo shills or something...the fact is, we've been here long enough to have heard these same topics discussed ad nauseum in the past and the newbies who get up on their soapbox and declare they have the ultimate solution with which to smite the TiVo monster are hardly a new phenomenon. They're SO CUTE!

Besides, anyone who knows me knows that 98% of my time on this board has been spent in the OFF-TOPIC CHIT-CHAT forum (which no longer adds to postcount anyway). If you'd like to discuss Star Wars, computer drives, sports, even the occasional controversial topic, that's where we do it...but it only occasionally crosses over into TiVo talk. Nice attempt to divert attention, though. Didn't work.



edit: changed CHIT-CHIT to CHIT-CHAT

Last edited by Pan Chun on 06-03-2002 at 07:22 PM

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sguthrie is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:33 PM
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sguthrie
Man you love to hate

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 361

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont
c3, I find it offensive that Tivo would sell me a unit and not give me full access to all the space. Imagine if you bought a car and part of the trunk was inaccessible. You could use that part of the trunk for storing soda you bought from Pepsi--or whoever else happened to strike a deal with GM that month.



It seems I'm coming late to the party, but I wanted to chime in. I see this as another flawed analogy. TiVo has not taken any of your "truck space", you still have 30 hours (or whatever, depending on your model). It seems to me what you are doing is complaining that you can't store anything under the hood or in the gas tank because it's cluttered with other stuff.

As for your problems, it sounds like your hard drive may be going bad. Why not visit the upgrade forum and investigate replacing the hard drive? Depending on what you have, you may very well be able to increase your storage space for a price equivalent to sending it in for the work.

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DominikHasek is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 06:50 PM
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DominikHasek
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Posts: 0

Troll

This was probably the most entertaining of the "Forced" advertising threads yet. Thanks for the excellent troll, and the well thought out troll food replies.

I can't wait until the RealOne and VOD features are rolled out!!!!

Dom

(I'll probably revert to my normal playoff form Tuesday night. I still can't believe Hartley didn't try to spring Kasparitus on me! If anyone gets this comment, you are a true Sabres fan!)

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Rhughes is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 08:37 PM
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Rhughes
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Dewey, AZ, USA
Posts: 77

quote:
Originally posted by Belmont


Sure I bought the unit from Tivo. Reading the replys to this thread it sounds like I needed to read the fine print. Is the Tivo a personal device or is owned by Tivo? i.e. Time Warner owns my cable box--not me.

Sorry to have upset so many folks--all I really want is the option to not have the ads delivered to MY Tivo.




I'm having a really hard time trying to understand your complaint. Your TiVo box is just a box. You are free to use it as it comes without subscription. However, when you subscribe to the TiVo service, you get whatever that service includes, which is not just programming updates.

I see ads on my TiVo service (I rarely see them) as no different from any other advertising supported purchase. If you subscribe to a newspaper, you get ads. If you subscribe to a magazine you get ads. If you subscribe to cable service you get ads. If you subscribe to DirecTV or Dish you get ads. If you watch TV OTA you get ads. If you buy a movie on VCR tape or DVD, you get ads. If you drive on a freeway you get ads. If you use the WWW you get ads. Even using this forum you get ads. You have the option to ignore any or all of them. Advertising supports many of the things we take for granted. We may grumble and wish they would go away, but unless you want all media to be 100% controlled by the government (and you really don't want that), you just have to put up with it. Don't let a few ads spoil the magic of TiVo.

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vanguard is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 08:47 PM
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vanguard
Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 6

I'm going slightly off-topic here.

I think that the open-source community might eventually provide a better alternative for technical users. I say this because they will never have to store advertising on your machine, they will be able to put commercial skipping or 30 ff features without fear of lawsuits, and they'll be able to ignore the DCMA.

The fact that Tivo needs to make a profit is going to be a real disadvantage. They spam us with unsolicited commercials and they can't implement features we would like.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

Vanguard

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dgh is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 08:52 PM
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dgh
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1902

quote:
Originally posted by tim99
Well I suppose that is the ultimate choice, but surely you're not suggesting that everyone who doesn't like something about tivo should sell them?

Have you ever found something about tivo you don't like? Have you sold yours?

I am sure you haven't so I am just not sure I follow how you feel doing so is in the companies or customers best interest.



I am simply pro-choice. It doesn't matter which choice you claim is the superior choice. Some people have sold their TiVos when TiVo has made a change that they didn't like and I respect their choice even if I don't agree with it. It sends a vastly stronger message to TiVo than typing into a web browser.

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(Now only 31 years until I'm allowed to be opinionated!)

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Rcrew is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 09:28 PM
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Rcrew
TiVo Domo

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 7658

Hey Pan! Best two posts I've seen from you in a while.

All in all, this boils down to 'much ado about nothing'.

Just take a pill, and skip the TiVo ads just like you don't read the ones in the paper you subscribe to.

If you want to complain, send TiVo a note mentioning your favorite musician. Perhaps the next round of ads will feature them......

Rob

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ChrisP21 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:05 PM
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ChrisP21
Member

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Beech Grove, IN, USA
Posts: 8

quote:
Originally posted by tim99
You are exactly right, it is about choice, but there is a strong anti-choice contingent. ...


As calvinp said, I also appreciate your well-crafted, thoughtful response, tim99. Even though I'm one of those who don't think the ads (so far!) have been in the least bit objectionable. If I lived in the UK, I probably would have been a bit more upset -- I do think they crossed the line there.

I'm sure this has been said before, but it bears repeating, I think -- DirecTiVos do NOT display an extra menu item on the main menu. The only place the Sheryl Crow videos show up is in "Showcases", which I rarely use anyway.

__________________
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walters is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:09 PM
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walters
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 2408

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisP21
I'm sure this has been said before, but it bears repeating, I think -- DirecTiVos do NOT display an extra menu item on the main menu.


Yes, they do (or will, once you get 2.5.2, which is currently going out to everyone).

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tim99 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:18 PM
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tim99
Big Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Sun Valley, Kentucky
Posts: 3

Good for you, I don't think would disagree with that. I personally do not believe that there is a 'superior' choice for everyone which is why there should be choice in the first place. Even the original poster wanted nothing more than a choice. In my mind it just defies all logic that people can stand against it.



quote:
Originally posted by dgh


I am simply pro-choice. It doesn't matter which choice you claim is the superior choice. Some people have sold their TiVos when TiVo has made a change that they didn't like and I respect their choice even if I don't agree with it. It sends a vastly stronger message to TiVo than typing into a web browser.

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tim99 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:25 PM
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tim99
Big Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Sun Valley, Kentucky
Posts: 3

Thank you for the kind words. If given an option, right now I would still be opting in for the ads too. But it should be optional.

I strongly believe that tivo should stop forcing their content and then make it content that folks would like. The free cd thing here is a great example. Imagine how many folks would be opting out if the new Star Wars trailer would have been there, or other such cool content.

Make it optional, then make me want it.

That transitions it from an annoyance to a benefit.


quote:
Originally posted by ChrisP21


As calvinp said, I also appreciate your well-crafted, thoughtful response, tim99. Even though I'm one of those who don't think the ads (so far!) have been in the least bit objectionable. If I lived in the UK, I probably would have been a bit more upset -- I do think they crossed the line there.

I'm sure this has been said before, but it bears repeating, I think -- DirecTiVos do NOT display an extra menu item on the main menu. The only place the Sheryl Crow videos show up is in "Showcases", which I rarely use anyway.

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ahartman is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:25 PM
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ahartman
Space for Rent

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 406

I had to laugh out loud at the trunk analogy. People complaining about reserved space and not being able to use the full capacity of the HD in their Tivos.

Anyone who thinks this is a valid argument, go buy your next harddrive, format it (under the OS of your choice), and tell me if what's listed on the box matches the capacity you got.

Been happening for years, folks.

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tim99 is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 10:44 PM
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tim99
Big Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Sun Valley, Kentucky
Posts: 3

Well said. Your take on my anaolgy is compelling AND makes more sense

I may not have the 'right' to have FOTL erase their logo from the 4th shirt, but I do have the right not to wear it or view their advertising. Much like the HD space, I may not have the 'right' to fill it with something else, but I do have the right now to have to see the ads they put there.

For the record, for me this really isn't a legal issue at all. I don't want to be part of a class action suit in fact if I never see another court document with my name on it I'll be very happy.

This is about making Tivo a better product for 1) current users and 2) and most important everyone considering buying one. Tivo already has trouble with market penetration, all it needs is to be labeled an ad box. I would rather hear a Best Buy salesman telling a potential customer who doesn't yet understand Tivo how much optional cool extra content can be (movie trailers, premier videos) had rather than defending why you must pay $400 and $12.95 a month for another 'newspaper full of ads' which for some strange reason people want to keep comparing it to.




quote:
Originally posted by Norm_bone

Actually, I think that's a pretty good example. Say you did buy a 3 pack of t-shirts, and instead recieved 4, but one of them had "Fruit of the Loom" printed on the front. As I understand it, you do not have the legal right to have the fourth shirt replaced. The package claimed to have 3 shirts. You have three "in-specification" shirts. You can keep the fourth out of spec. one, but FOTL isn't obligated to replace it for you. Granted, in the real case of a Tivo you can't throw out the fourth shirt and keep the three, but similarly, FOTL isn't forcing you to wear the fourth one. (That would cross the line, IMO.) Alternatively, you can return the entire package of shirts.

A better analogy was suggested though; easments. You bought a Tivo that had an "easment" of so much hard drive space for software and ads. In the same way that you don't regain title to the easment in real estate when you discover its existance, you don't have a right to claim the reserved space. Similarly, (Sorry to say it,) the fact that Belmont didn't realize that an some hard drive space would be reserved for ads is Belmont's fault for not doing dilligent research. This was known 6 months ago.

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Uther is offline Old Post 06-03-2002 11:36 PM
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Uther
King of Britons

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1577

quote:
Originally posted by tim99
I strongly believe that tivo should stop forcing their content and then make it content that folks would like. The free cd thing here is a great example. Imagine how many folks would be opting out if the new Star Wars trailer would have been there, or other such cool content.

Make it optional, then make me want it.



Uh, if you opt out, then how would you know if TiVo had cool content in the future?

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jayb282 is offline Old Post 06-04-2002 01:05 AM
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jayb282
New Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 0

STOP IT TIVO (was Sheryl Crow)

Now, I'm generally I'm a lurker around here - I read most of the threads but don't post much. I've had my tivo for about a year now and have been VERY happy with it. I'd recommend it to anybody who would listen....

UNTIL NOW.

Hello TIVO --- stop with the promotional and other crap that you are shoving dow the throats of your subscribers.

Lets be clear here:

1)I OWN MY TIVO BOX. Yup - i paid for it - i have the receipt if you want to see it. It is *MY* property, NOT TiVO Incs. You do not get to do with it whatever you want.

2)I Pay for my DirectTV connection. I have receipts too. Not Tivo Inc.

3)I Pay for my monthy TIVO service. Yup - nothing free there either. (and I won't go on a tirade on how much BS that is for directTV subscribers since the program guide information is already provided. Blah blah blah showcases blah blah blah. I've never looked at them once and never will. Why would i look at listings for stuff that people have paid Tivo to shove into my face? Thats right - i wouldn't. My monthy TiVO fee is basically extortion to stop them from remotely turning off my box -- yup it sucks but I can deal with it.)

Now Tivo seems to think that they can remotely stuff content into my box and down my throat that CANNOT BE REMOVED by me. EXCUSE ME? THIS BOX IS MY PROPERTY!!!!

And please don't talk about "revenue stream for Tivo - yadda yadda". TIVO's revenue issues are it's problem, not mine. I paid for my box, I pay for my monthy fee. That does not give them the right to use me and my hardware as an avenue to make money just because they can. If you're gonna "sell my eyeballs" you better be giving me something in exchange - or the ability to opt out. And you've preseted neither.

Now i'm generally a very calm and rational person but if you can't tell this issue has REALLY gotten under my collar. If Microsoft started using Windows to store ad's and shove them in your face everytime you booted people would be screaming bloody murder. If GM decided to use your car as a taxi at night because you're not using it there would be hell to pay. I hold TIVO to the same standards.

I would be interested in speaking to some lawyer friends to see if this fits the definition of 'tresspass' or some other law i'm not familiar with (a lawyer I am not). It's illegal to break into somebody else's computer. Messing with the function of my hardware even though you do have some granted access is a very shady area.

Long story short:

TIVO -- SMARTEN UP.

I've been your biggest supporter - but if this is a sign of more crap to come I will become your biggest pain in the ass. California has pretty liberal laws when it comes to class action suits.

If i was living in the UK and was starting to get those forced BBC programs I'd be even madder.

(i'm sure I'll get flamed for this --- bring it on <G> Seriously --- if you DO support TIVO in this, try to think about it rationally. Why do you think they are within their rights to do it. If some other company tried it would you feel the same? Probably not. This is only the beginning - i expect it to get MUCH worse.).
j

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