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>>> OK, Tivo... Please explain the holdup with an HDTV Tivo <<<

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DBCooper is offline Old Post 07-18-2002 06:28 PM
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DBCooper
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quote:
Originally posted by chris1
Sorry to be asking the stupid questions, but could someone please explain to me what 1080i, 720p, and 480p are? What is the difference between them? Which one do DVDs use?
I don't recall anyone answering your DVD question. See http://www.hidef.com/hdarticlemore.html for information on the current (Feb, 2002) "state-of-the-art."
quote:
Current technology restricts DVD players to display either a 480-line interlaced image, or in the case of newer and more expensive players, an improved 480-line progressive scan image. Compare this to a normal VCR player using VHS tapes with its 250-line interlaced image.
The key to it is disc capacity. The DVD recorders you can buy for your computer have a capacity of 4.7 GB per side, barely enough for 30 minutes of HTDV under the best of circumstances. The dual-layer DVDs you can rent at Blockbuster are limited to about an hour (or less, per side). Hence the need for blue-laser DVDs with a capacity of 27 GB per side.

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Dajad is offline Old Post 07-18-2002 11:10 PM
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Dajad
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Hey, I answered his question in my post that followed his question.

Anywho, you raise a good point, current standard DVDs do not support HighDef content. Hence, the blue laser DVDs and other proposed technologies due out later this year which will effectively create a new HighDef DVD standard. The question is which High Def tech will emerge as the standard and will they be backward compatible to play current DVDs. We'll see.

The ideal future player would also play back DivX recordings as DivX has become the defacto standard on the Internet ... it is the "MP3-like" standard for video over the Internet.

...Dale

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Glen Graham is offline Old Post 07-19-2002 06:12 AM
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Glen Graham
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quote:
Originally posted by Thom
HDTV Tivos can be made more cheaply by making them all single tuner, but with a cross-connect capability.


Several people have mentioned how it would be quite a bit cheaper to have one tuner - or not cost-effective to have 2...

Well, I disagree. With HDTV, all you need is a 2nd tuner. With analog today, you would also need a 2nd encoding chip and related logic and memory.

However, with HDTV, the signal is already compressed digital. All you need is a simple tuner, like the DirecTiVo units have 2 tuners. It will record the bitstream directly. Far more efficient.

The hard part, is if you have 2 tuners, people would expect to be able to record 2 analog signals as well (at the same time). For that, you're back to needing another encoding chip.

So, we're back to the horse and the cart. HDTV and even DTV is not really here enough, I think, to justify an HDTiVo. Until a person can record most or all of their stuff in digital, any HD-capable TiVo would really be 2 seperate TiVo's in one - an analog TiVo for normal TV, and a 2nd set of circuits and tuner for the digital broadcasts.

Then, your price goes way up. The average joe is not going to understand the high price tag compared to an SA or DirecTiVo, so it will flounder in the retail market.

TiVo, as a company, can't afford to make and market something for a small group of people, at least until the standards are such that they won't have to drastically redesign it in a couple more years.

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jcblack is offline Old Post 07-19-2002 09:48 AM
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jcblack
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quote:
Originally posted by VitaMan
TiVo, as a company, can't afford to make and market something for a small group of people, at least until the standards are such that they won't have to drastically redesign it in a couple more years.
I don't know. If an HDTiVo is planned out and designed with keeping it as simple as possible in mind, then I don't see a problem with the small market that the unit would have (the small market like some assume it is). As long as the R&D costs are low, which they could be, then the expensive unit even sold at a very low volume could be worth tivo's while.

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Thom is offline Old Post 07-19-2002 05:37 PM
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Thom
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Location: Whittier, CA, USA
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What I was envisioning was a single tuner that could receive either HDTV or analog, depending on what station you were tuned to.

If you were tuned to an analog station, the analog signal (after the carrier wave was stripped away) would be sent to an A/D converter, then to an MPEG encoder.

If you were tuned to a digital station, the digital signal (after the carrier wave was stripped away) would be conditioned, then streamed into the PVR.

Thus, Tivo would have just one box which handled both HDTV and analog.

For those who wanted DirecTV, there would be just one single tuner box which handled both HDTV and non-HDTV satellite signals, and only satellite signals.

If a customer wanted both satellite and off-the-air/cable reception, he would buy two boxes (one of each) and cross-connect them. The cross-connection would blend the two boxes seamlessly, so there would be no need for an A/V switch or dual remote controls or changing the remote's address. There would be only ONE To Do list, ONE Now Playing list, and ONE Season Pass Manager for the entire system, even with multiple TVs. Whichever box was connected to the TV you were watching would allow you to schedule/play/delete for the system as a whole.

For those who were willing to spend bucks, they could purchase as many boxes as they wanted, and they would cross-connect seamlessly.

Thus, Tivo only has to deal with 2 types of boxes, and the customers can get as many tuners of whichever type (Satellite or OTA/Cable) they want and can afford. The customer gets more flexibility and Tivo gets a sale for every tuner.

Currently all boxes are supposed to call in every day. With cross-connected boxes, only one box in the system needs to call in, and it reports on all the boxes activities.

If one box fries a modem, the user just moves the phone line to a different box, and changes in the configuration as to which box has the modem.

In terms of noise issues, only one box needs to be with a TV. The other cross-connected boxes can be anywhere in the house that the cross-connect cables can reach. The box next to the TV handles all remote commands for the system.

By just making two boxes, and structuring their software for coordination, Tivo would have all HDTV, Satellite, and OTA/Cable users covered.

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DLiquid is offline Old Post 07-20-2002 06:30 AM
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DLiquid
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Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by VitaMan
The hard part, is if you have 2 tuners, people would expect to be able to record 2 analog signals as well (at the same time). For that, you're back to needing another encoding chip.
I don't think an HD DirecTiVo needs to be able to record analog signals, so I'd say leave out the MPEG encoder. Just DirecTV (SD and HD) and OTA (HD) would be perfectly fine with me. We already have TiVos that record analog. Also, at least in my area, most local stations have a digital channel now or are planning on going live with one within the next year. Keep it simple, no encoder.

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FrogMan is offline Old Post 07-22-2002 12:52 AM
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FrogMan
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What would it take for me to buy an HDTivo?

MUST HAVES <stack ranked>:
1. DirecTV or DishNetwork receiver (sadly, DishNetwork seems to have much better HD content available at the moment) integrated in. I personally am not interested in OTA or SA models for various reasons.
2. Ability to record at least 1 non-HD signal simultaneously with 1 HD signal.
3. Output 1080i over component video cables for HD recorded signal.
4. Whatever size drive Tivo thinks will help it sell best. 10 hour HD drive or whatnot. If it's less than 20 hours HD recording I will very quickly replace the drives with either a pair of 120GB IDE drives or even larger Serial-ATA drives, but so long as those interested can upgrade the drives via even unsupported means, I would buy a 10 hour unit.

Price that at $999 (or less) and I'll be punching my credit card into tivo.com or whatever retailer lets me preorder it earliest faster than you can say, "Is that an HDTivo you've just ordered, or are you just happy to see me."

LIKES (bells & whistles that should not be included if it holds up my HDTivo by more than a week) <stack ranked>:
1. Ability to record a second simultaneous non-HD signal when no HD signal is being recorded.
2. Outputting non-HD (recorded or live) signal over component instead of the default S-Video cable.
3. 720P support.
4. Ability to record one HD stream while watching a recorded HD stream.
5 Serial-ATA support.
6 USB 2.0 support.
7 Built-in Ethernet (100Mb or 10Mb) or built-in WiFi (802.11a or 802.11b).
8 DVI outputs.

Just my 2 cents worth...for my $1,000 worth, just build me an HDTivo!

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majortom is offline Old Post 07-26-2002 09:40 PM
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majortom
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While I would also love an box that did DirecTv HD as well as OTA, if I was given a choice between an OTA-only box in a short time period and waiting much longer for DirecTiVo-HD receiver, I would take OTA only rather than wait.

It seems that forcing TiVo to work with DirecTv (and work around DirecTv's contracts with its content suppliers) will take much more time to resolve than an OTA only box.

Given that, I'd like to know what people would think about an OTA only box.

Here is what I would expect a minimum configuration to be:

1 - HD OTA tuner.
1 - SD OTA tuner.

min 320GB (about 30 hours) - I am actually a bit flexible here, and if TiVo needed to cut that back a bit to hit a price target, that would be ok.

ability to record 1 HD-stream and 1 SD-stream while watching an HD-stream.

100 megabit ethernet.

Component output @ 480P, 720P, 1080P.

Extras:
Firewire - for external storage only, maybe later could be used with an DirecTv STB, or as output to a monitor. Firewire could also be used to transfer SD content from a DV camcorder should people want it.

USB 2.0 (not as important to me, but if people want keyboards and mice it would be useful).

Gigabit ethernet.

My question is would people here rather have a box like this soon, or wait for a long time for a DirecTv integrated box?

Based on what I know from talking with people at Sony and DirecTv, it takes over 12 months to get a new DirecTv receiver approved by DirecTv. That would mean if TiVo started today, there is no way that it would see the light of day before late next year (given that they have not released the Series II DirecTiVo my bet is they could not even start before Oct or Nov). A stand alone box would require only TiVo's work and could probably be done much less time.

/carmi

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 07-26-2002 11:26 PM
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feldon23
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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1821

quote:
1. DirecTV or DishNetwork receiver (sadly, DishNetwork seems to have much better HD content available at the moment) integrated in. I personally am not interested in OTA or SA models for various reasons.


FrogMan,

Dish Network has the Discovery HD channel.
DirecTV has HDNet.

I don't think that's an advantage in Dish's favor.

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jcblack is offline Old Post 07-29-2002 08:18 AM
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jcblack
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Location: lexington, ky
Posts: 125

quote:
Originally posted by FrogMan
I personally am not interested in OTA or SA models for various reasons.
I wouldn't be interested in an SA model, but I would want the box to do both directtv and OTA. Because of the small amount of current hd programming I really want the capability to record as much as possible of what actually is available.

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borderstud is offline Old Post 07-29-2002 11:17 AM
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borderstud
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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4

HD pass through - please!!

I'd be satisifed with just an HD pass through for video and an optical out for audio for now so I can pass a higher quality signal from my HDTV decoder to my HDTV and my amp. How hard can it be to just add outputs?

Seems like a good first step for the HD crowd. Many of us would buy it and if and when Tivo HD ever materializes we'd buy that too. Incremental improvements = increased product sales.

Hope Tivo is listening!

John

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MRBECK is offline Old Post 07-30-2002 12:51 AM
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MRBECK
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Thumbs down BACK UP THE BUS!!!!!

WAIT A MINUTE!!! HOLD ON!!! Did anyone see the USA Today article last week??? I work in network professional television.... HDTV is dying.... dying.... we screwed it up (as usual).... in fact Digital Television (DTV) MAY (I say MAY) make it, but it's going to be a CLUSTER%#@& that will make the conversion from B&W to color tv look orderly!!!
First off, (as reported correctly here), cable IS NOT required to carry HD or even DTV, and if they do they are currently allowed to convert it to just about ANYTHING THEY WANT before they send it to your home! ONE channel of HDTV takes up the bandwidth of FIVE channels on an analog cable system (which is more than 75% of the cable systems in the US currently). Please remember that fewer than 25% of the current cable companies even HAVE digi/internet capable implementation equipment installed. Secondly, as USA Today pointed out, stations anywhere but the LARGE markets can't even deal with the FCC's newest lunacy order to go digital! WHAT DIGITAL??? We have at least 2 (and really 3) formats between the networks, and what about the nets who have yet to choose (WB,etc)??? And as the article pointed out, the cost of DTV transmission for these stations is $2-$3mil.... FOR A STATION THAT HAS $350k PER YEAR CASHFLOW AND IS WORTH LESS THAN $1MIL TOTAL??? Again, as the article pointed out, what's the station to do?? The upgrade is worth MORE THAN THE STATION.... AND WE AREN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE PRODUCTION GEAR!!! So a small market station does news in 4:3 analog (what they have now and what they can afford) and (somehow) tries to transmit 1080i (or 720p or whatever) from a standard 5.5mhz analog signal. Mpeg2 (or 3 or 4) does work as an encoding system.... but I hope your not doing sports!!! (ever seen auto or horse racing on MpegII ????) HDTV was a great idea, but the television has screwed it up with it's failure to adopt ONE FORMAT (so that viewers can buy ONE decoder/tuner instead of 2 or 3) and with the bickering and infighting between ALL the equipment manufacturers, and Uncle Charlie's (the FCC) political infighting, special interests, lobbyists, and their ABSOLUTELY FAMOUS lack of grasp of technology. (as usual) In short, it's all well and good 'till somebody get's hurt! <grin>

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Avian is offline Old Post 07-30-2002 07:55 AM
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Avian
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quote:
Originally posted by majortom
USB 2.0 (not as important to me, but if people want keyboards and mice it would be useful).


Hrm, I think I would prefer a USB 2.0 HD over a firewire one... but thats just me..

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rbird is offline Old Post 07-30-2002 10:52 PM
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Re: BACK UP THE BUS!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by MRBECK
ONE channel of HDTV takes up the bandwidth of FIVE channels on an analog cable system (which is more than 75% of the cable systems in the US currently).
This is a FALSE statement. One HD channel on cable takes up exactly 6MHz, the EXACT same amount of space as one analog cable channel. The problem is, in order to add these HD channels without taking away from the analog service, they have to displace DIGITAL channels, of which you can fit 6-10 in that same 6MHz.

Adding HD channels has zero effect on analog capacity. It steals only from digital channel capacity.

The obvious solution (but one that many customers are against) is to begin moving channels from "expanded basic" analog into the digital tiers. Each analog channel moved into the digital lineup will free up bandwidth for at least 5/6 of an HD channel.

Bob

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DLiquid is offline Old Post 07-30-2002 11:08 PM
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Re: BACK UP THE BUS!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by MRBECK
HDTV was a great idea, but the television has screwed it up with it's failure to adopt ONE FORMAT (so that viewers can buy ONE decoder/tuner instead of 2 or 3)...
What in the world are you ranting about, man? You seem to be implying that you need more than one HDTV STB to handle 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Most, if not all, STBs can handle all of those formats. Many STBs also support both DirecTV and OTA.

Also, many of us live in large markets where the networks already have digital stations broadcasting in HD, and have been for a while. HDTV isn't dying, it's growing up.

I don't disagree that the transition to HD has been, and will continue to be, a mess (growing pains). But the fact is, for many of us, HDTV is here right now. I, for one, would like to use my favorite toy from last year (TiVo) with my favorite toy from this year (HDTV). I'm hoping that some day soon I'll be able to do that.

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Larry Hutchinson is offline Old Post 07-31-2002 04:07 AM
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Larry Hutchinson
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quote:
One HD channel on cable takes up exactly 6MHz, the EXACT same amount of space as one analog cable channel.


Actually, remodulating using QAM rather than 8VSB, will allow two HD channels to fit in a 6MHz slot.

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jcblack is offline Old Post 07-31-2002 09:44 AM
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jcblack
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quote:
Actually, remodulating using QAM rather than 8VSB, will allow two HD channels to fit in a 6MHz slot.
quote:
You seem to be implying that you need more than one HDTV STB to handle 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Most, if not all, STBs can handle all of those formats.
I don't think the bus is backup up anymore...

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feldon23 is offline Old Post 07-31-2002 10:02 AM
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feldon23
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quote:
MRBECK said:

Again, as the article pointed out, what's the station to do?? The upgrade is worth MORE THAN THE STATION.... AND WE AREN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE PRODUCTION GEAR!!! So a small market station does news in 4:3 analog (what they have now and what they can afford) and (somehow) tries to transmit 1080i (or 720p or whatever) from a standard 5.5mhz analog signal.


If you don't have enough HD/digital viewers to support the conversion, put out a blanket waiver that people can get out-of-market digital-only signals. Then move your channel assignment up to UHF. As far as I'm concerned, you've met your requirements and the government should leave you alone for another 5-10 years.

Let those 20 people with HDTVs watch the national CBS HD feed in peace instead BOTH fighting them AND fighting installation of a digital tower.

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Last edited by feldon23 on 07-31-2002 at 10:10 AM

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SC0TLANDF0REVER is offline Old Post 07-31-2002 06:30 PM
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dolfer is offline Old Post 08-01-2002 02:47 AM
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dolfer
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Exclamation forget HDTV, the next SA tivo needs...

- 2 tuners (to record 2 shows simultaneously)
- Dolby 5.1 support
- *Front* mounted USB/FireWire ports

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>>> OK, Tivo... Please explain the holdup with an HDTV Tivo <<<

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