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>>> Lack of HDTV support will KILL TiVo. Moxi, Dish Network <<<

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DBCooper is offline Old Post 11-19-2002 09:51 PM
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DBCooper
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Re: Lack of HDTV support will KILL TiVo. Moxi, Dish Network

quote:
Originally posted by Sepia
I loved TiVo, I was one the first to buy one (14 hours for $500 + 150 for lifetime), but it's time to move on. They either have terrible marketing/pr or they totally lack vision.
We need to start a "Genius of the Week" award for tired old comments like these.

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Doug Schiller is offline Old Post 11-19-2002 10:09 PM
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Doug Schiller
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quote:
We need to start a "Genius of the Week" award for tired old comments like these.

Not sure what you mean.
I thought his comments were right on and TiVo needs to address the issue.

I love my TiVo but when I bought my new 16x9 HDTV TV a couple of weeks ago, it got moved to the other room. I just can't afford on missing a HDTV broadcast if TiVo wants to tape "Area" for the wife. BTW, I have a SA Tivo so it needs the cable box.

Heck, I would even settle for a DirectTivo DSS that couldn't record HDTV signals but still received them. As far as I know, that product doesn't exist.

Trust me, the technology is there to do it easily. The first one to the plate gets my money.

Doug

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Francesco is offline Old Post 11-19-2002 10:27 PM
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Francesco

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The technology is also there for you to watch an HD show while the TiVo records "Area" for the wife -- it's called a splitter. Cost? $2.

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pv is offline Old Post 11-19-2002 11:09 PM
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pv
Klein Bottle Washer

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Chicago,IL,USA
Posts: 267

quote:
Originally posted by Sepia
That's the thing, you can't actually buy the product, you will have to rent it from your cable company for $10 per month.


And at present, you can't do that either. And where does the $10 come from? Total guess I expect.

quote:
The Moxi developers are very talented. They have been making very frequent check-ins to the 2.4 and 2.5 Linux kernels, and are the main maintainers of the ext3 filesystem. Very cool bunch.


Great. But this is important to PVRs... how, exactly? Why would you store giant blocks of video on a journalized filesystem?

quote:
That's why I think TiVo will die. Their PR department is completely dropping the ball here, and allowing the competition to steal the same early adopters who made TiVo a success to begin with.


And where is this competition which is stealing all the early adopters away? It looks like Replay and Tivo to me, and both have been there since the beginning. Moxi may be great, once it's past vapor. But it can hardly even be called vapor now. It's a notional platform that nobody has deployed yet.

quote:
Those early adopters have moved on the HDTV, I am one of them.... who are these people saying HDTV is long time away? It's here, and it's here to stay, get with the program.


One guy does not make a movement. That takes at least four, if I remember "Alice's restaurant" right. HDTV is well poised as being one of the biggest flops in consumer electronics. The vast majority of the people with HD sets never use it to watch an HD program. it's all DVDs, satellite, or digital cable. PV

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BlankMan is offline Old Post 11-19-2002 11:19 PM
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btmoore you made my point about being one of the diehards that would run out and buy three of them. From the looks of you're equipment list you're in a position where you can do that, the other 99% of us in the world can't. The point was made of price point, that's what's going to do it. Hardly anyone is going to spend $699 or more for an HDTV TiVo when less then 10% (I'm guessing it's probably lower) of the shows are HDTV. We can't afford that yet. I sympathize with you wanting more HDTV programing and equipment, but it ain't gone happen until a good portion of the rest of us in that 99% can, or will, join you. And I doubt TiVo, or anyone else is going to produce a product that has even less of a market then the ones they're already trying to get the public to adopt. Currently, that doesn't make good business since. And the old adage Build it and they will buy don't hold no water because they've been trying that approach since 1997 with limited success.

Granted HDTV offers a better picture, but how good does it have to be? Somebody's always going to want better. Even when DTV is increasing compression to add more channels, its still better than over the air or any cable I've ever had. So you get a little tearing or smearing or pixelation once it a while, big deal, life does not revolve around TV, at least mine doesn't.

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btmoore is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 12:53 AM
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btmoore
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quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
btmoore you made my point about being one of the diehards that would run out and buy three of them. From the looks of you're equipment list you're in a position where you can do that, the other 99% of us in the world can't. The point was made of price point, that's what's going to do it. Hardly anyone is going to spend $699 or more for an HDTV TiVo when less then 10% (I'm guessing it's probably lower) of the shows are HDTV. We can't afford that yet. I sympathize with you wanting more HDTV programing and equipment, but it ain't gone happen until a good portion of the rest of us in that 99% can, or will, join you. And I doubt TiVo, or anyone else is going to produce a product that has even less of a market then the ones they're already trying to get the public to adopt. Currently, that doesn't make good business since. And the old adage Build it and they will buy don't hold no water because they've been trying that approach since 1997 with limited success.


This is not a question of the haves vs the have nots, and I would only buy one because my house is wired for HD distribution from a central AV room. I am sure the market for HD PVR will carry a premium price just like JVC's HD VCR sells ~ $1000.00 at brick and mortars. If JVC did not think there was not a market and they could not make if profitable, they would not make the device, even though I have not purchased on because there is no Firewire enabled DSS STBs to record from and I would much prefer a PVR system over tape. There are many HD STBs on the market right now, Hughes, Sony, Tosh, Mits, RCA, Zenith, JVC, and Samsung, priced all over the map from the $400 - $1000 range, each of these companies had invest in to developing these products and bring them to market. JVC and Dish are taking the lead with developing the 921, I hope it is a great box because I want a good HD PVR solution. As long as the price is not completely insane I will move over to dish and drop my TiVo.

I would encourage you to educate your self on the amount of HD content available and it growing all the time. Almost all the programming I watch is available in HD or ED format, so for me now is the right time for a HD PVR. I am sorry if you live in a market that your broadcasters are not providing HD programming, but for me I have a bonanza of HD programming available.

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
Granted HDTV offers a better picture, but how good does it have to be? Somebody's always going to want better. Even when DTV is increasing compression to add more channels, its still better than over the air or any cable I've ever had. So you get a little tearing or smearing or pixelation once it a while, big deal, life does not revolve around TV, at least mine doesn't.


It is a big difference. The larger the picture the more critical HD for viewing quality. Even on a small HD screen there is a large quality difference in the picture. Colors are flat on NTSC, there is no depth or detail, I would encourage you to spend some time looking at HD content on a good display. There is no going back to SD after you start watching HD. SD is like having bad eyes and HD is like having your vision corrected. While my life does not revolve around TV either, I enjoy having a home theater and creating a theater like experience in my home and that is what has let me down the HD path on most of my TVs. The PQ is so bad on the DTivo, if it were not for the user interface and time shifting capabilities it would be long gone.

Regards,

Brian

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BlankMan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 01:46 AM
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btmoore:

my house is wired for HD distribution For the other 99.9% of us, our houses are not. We'll have to wait till we build our Central AV room first.

JVC's HD VCR sells ~ $1000.00 Only $1000? And only because of Firewire you don't have one... But if you could use the Firewire you'd probably have three, right? Sure they're making money on it, but Joe Average doesn't have that kind of disposable income, even if he could use the Firewire too...

priced all over the map from the $400 - $1000 range That to you is affordable to Joe Average for a luxury item? $129 to $299 maybe. Your range to most people is a major purchase.

I would encourage you to educate your self on the amount of HD content available Unfortunately not everyone can be as smart as you, and I'm just too darn stupid, I could never understand. Gimme a break. You know the world exists outside of California, don't you? How many total channels are there in the country? And how many of those are broadcasting HDTV content? I need to educate myself? I think you need to expand your horizon a little.

It is a big difference No kidding eh? Boy, I would have never guess that while I was watching it. Thanks for the info, I'll pay more attention next time...

What color is the sky in your world? You can't be for real, you're not one of those trolls I've been hearing about on these boards??

Being from a hick town here in the Midwest, I'll just never know how bad I've got it.... I'll have to go see if I can apply for Federal Aid...

__________________
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Last edited by BlankMan on 11-20-2002 at 02:03 AM

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RavenFan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 01:59 AM
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RavenFan
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If producing a high definition PVR is so critical to a company's success in the PVR market, why is nobody actually making them? Why can't I go to my local Best Buy or Circuit City (or even a real audio-video store) and just pick up a HD PVR? Is it because all of the real companies producing A/V equipment are run by village idiots who have no clue about the market that they serve?

I think not. There are several reasons why we don't see HD PVRs, including market size, prices, R&D costs and legal issues. We will definitely see HD PVRs when the time is right, but that time simply is not now.

Currently, the best compromise may be a HD STB that is TiVo-powered but cannot record HD content.

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phone1 is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:04 AM
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Re: Re: Lack of HDTV support will KILL TiVo. Moxi, Dish Network

quote:
Originally posted by DBCooper
We need to start a "Genius of the Week" award for tired old comments like these.
Well, I know exactly what he means. At least 2 or 3 times a month, some armchair CEO starts pontificating about what TiVo "must" do to stay in business. This "free" advice is always based solely on whatever the poster wants personally, who assumes that everyone else must, naturally, want the same thing. (If they don't it's because they just don't know it yet, but soon, you see, they'll all agree.) If he is ready to "dump" TiVo, for HDTV then all the rest of us are too, or certainly will be after we see the light.

I think we just found our first "Genius of the Week!"

__________________
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BlankMan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:05 AM
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BlankMan
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Thank you RavenFan.

__________________
User: So, how long will the server be down?
SA: Until it's back up (cjb 1994)
SAT-T60 290h TurboNET
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HDVR2 107h
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and ah, a, A55

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BlankMan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:09 AM
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BlankMan
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by DBCooper
We need to start a "Genius of the Week" award for tired old comments like these.



I'd like to nominate someone.

__________________
User: So, how long will the server be down?
SA: Until it's back up (cjb 1994)
SAT-T60 290h TurboNET
SAT-T60 230h TurboNET (x2)
HDVR2 107h
DVR40 (unactivated) (x3)
HR10-250 stock
and ah, a, A55

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Breacagan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:13 AM
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Breacagan
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I skipped a bit of this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating what others have already said.

There is little demand currently for an OTA HD TiVo. Most OTA viewers seem to have little interest in receiving HDTV broadcasts today, much less recording them.

In my opinion, there is a rapidly developing market for a TiVo-enabled HDTV receiver for DirecTV viewers. I think many of those willing to pony up $500+ for a high-definition DirecTV receiver would be willing to pay substantially more for a TiVo combo box that does everything. Many users here have two DirecTV receivers, and they are forced to choose between watching a show with TiVo or in high definition. The box I'm imagining would be a monster, costing as much as some computers. Despite the initial cost, I am convinced there are buyers for this product right now. The only thing missing is the product.

TiVo and DirecTV are each a generation ahead of the cable companies currently; they could leap two full generations ahead with this product and become the undisputed technological leaders. The cable companies do not even have a mature standard-definition combo box product at this time. They lag even further behind on HDTV.

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Squeak is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
Have you looked at the list of shows that are available in HD? Not to mention every major football and basketball game in the country will be available in HD in 2003, between CBS HD, NBC HD, ABC HD, HDNet and ESPN HD.



Since when? I have seen no committment from ABC to do any College Football in HiDef -- makes the BCS and Big 10 games a little dull.

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btmoore is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:32 AM
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btmoore
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quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
btmoore:

my house is wired for HD distribution For the other 99.9% of us, our houses are not. We'll have to wait till we build our Central AV room first.

JVC's HD VCR sells ~ $1000.00 Only $1000? And only because of Firewire you don't have one... But if you could use the Firewire you'd probably have three, right? Sure they're making money on it, but Joe Average doesn't have that kind of disposable income, even if he could use the Firewire too...

priced all over the map from the $400 - $1000 range That to you is affordable to Joe Average for a luxury item? $129 to $299 maybe. Your range to most people is a major purchase.

I would encourage you to educate your self on the amount of HD content available Unfortunately not everyone can be as smart as you, and I'm just too darn stupid, I could never understand. Gimme a break. You know the world exists outside of California, don't you? How many total channels are there in the country? And how many of those are broadcasting HDTV content? I need to educate myself? I think you need to expand your horizon a little.

It is a big difference No kidding eh? Boy, I would have never guess that while I was watching it. Thanks for the info, I'll pay more attention next time...

What color is the sky in your world? You can't be for real, you're not one of those trolls I've been hearing about on these boards??

Being from a hick town here in the Midwest, I'll just never know how bad I've got it.... I'll have to go see if I can apply for Federal Aid...



My house is wired for HD because I decided it was more cost effective than buying HD boxes for each room. If you are going to run 1 or 2 runs of rg6 you might as well run 5 and some cat 5e. BTW I did it myself.

Apparently you think I am attacking you, I am not. I am sorry you have a different price point at what you think is a fair price for HD STBs. I don't think that you should be mad that perhaps other around here may make more money and have more disposable income. Just because you do not have the money to purchase something doesn't mean there are not a lot of other who do have the money and want such a product. FYI I paid $399 for my t60 plus 199 for the lifetime service, I was one of the first people to own a Directv Tivo. So no I don't think that those prices for STBs are out of line.

I am sorry if the broadcasters in your area are not broadcasting HD content. In my market they are and I would like to time shift it on a PVR. All of the major broadcasters are providing HD or ED content and most much of Prime time is in HD. We also have HBO, Sho, HD Net and discovery. We will soon have ESPN. I am sorry that this content is not available to you, hopefully your broadcasters will convert soon.


I moved to CA from the Midwest (MI (Southfield, Midland) IN (Richmond, W. Lafayette)) because I preferred what CA had to offer. It as the added benefit that I live in one of the largest media markets. You can live where ever you like. I don't see your point. BTW the sky in CA is blue.

As far as being a troll, please note that I have been here much longer than you and I have many more posts. Not to mention my 500+ posts on the AVS forum. Perhaps you should move to CA it might help your bad mood.

Good luck with your financial aid package.

Regards,

Brian

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phone1 is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:33 AM
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If you want to record HDTV programming there is another consideration - drive space. Sony's new PVR released in Japan, reportedly records HDTV and comes with a 160MB drive, but stores only 15 hours of HDTV vs 100 hours normal.

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jsmeeker is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:36 AM
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Feldon23 said [b]major[/b/] football and basketball.. I take major to mean NFL and NBA.

However, I believe CBS is doing one College football game per weeek in HDTV.

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dgh is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by btmoore
As far as being a troll, please note that I have been here much longer than you and I have many more posts.


That's the first time I've seen someone claim he wasn't a troll based on persistence and lots of posts

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btmoore is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 02:58 AM
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btmoore
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quote:
Originally posted by dgh
That's the first time I've seen someone claim he wasn't a troll based on persistence and lots of posts


just how is my desire for a hd tivo make me a troll. I use to really enjoy my tivo, technology has moved on and tivo is not staying up, while their competitors are passing them up. So as a consumer who is invested in keeping the user interfaces I like I would like to see a HD tivo. If they dont provide one, then so long tivo. If that makes me a troll, keep off my bridge.

BTW my point was I have been here while, I am not some noobie troll looking to start a fight.

Regards,

Brian

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BlankMan is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 04:41 AM
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BlankMan
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btmoore

I'm not taking it personally, I'm trying to provide a different point of view, and have some fun while doing it.

We here on this forum number in the 20,000's. Supposedly TiVo has ~500,000 subscribers (? I may be orders of magnitude off on that), we are a minority. And then when you put us up against all the TV viewers in the US, we become minuscule.

My house too is wired with 5e running Gigabit to a central distribution point. (Did I just up the ante?) My house to is wired with RG6 and MultiSwitches. And I did it all myself. And I can hang with the best of them. Although I will not kick out $7K+ for a Plasma TV. Most people here can toot their own horns to one degree or another.

My whole point is trying to provide an alternate point of view, we are the minority, not the majority. When part of a minority one tends to lose sight of that. Nobody is going to get rich or make their stockholder happy by listening to us and providing us with what we want. And no company is going to go out of business because they didn't listen to us. They'll do it whether or not they listen to us. When there are more of us they may listen, but not now. The price point has to come way down for Joe Average to justify it, then the mfg.'s can make money at it, then the mfg.s will make them. Not before.

I kind of took exception with the subject of this thread, thought it's moronic, but that's my opinion. And then everybody chiming in: Yeah! Yeah! Right! -- Get real. Numbers aren't there yet.

I was expecting the color to be smog.

And I'll keep this in mind:

code:
lots of posts != troll


Moving to California will not change my disposition thank you very much. Oh wait minute, it might (been there many times), but I doubt it would be for the better.

There. Take That!

__________________
User: So, how long will the server be down?
SA: Until it's back up (cjb 1994)
SAT-T60 290h TurboNET
SAT-T60 230h TurboNET (x2)
HDVR2 107h
DVR40 (unactivated) (x3)
HR10-250 stock
and ah, a, A55

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kevinivey is offline Old Post 11-20-2002 05:14 AM
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55% of network primetime shows are now available in HD format.

Last edited by kevinivey on 11-20-2002 at 05:23 AM

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