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>>> TiVo needs an Ethernet port <<<

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tom_h is offline Old Post 10-19-2000 05:06 AM
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tom_h
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quote:
Originally posted by bytebug:
Except that there is already a slot. Everyone's probably seen the edge connector in the photos. I'd be willing to bet that it allows the software engineers at Tivo to hook up a custom ethernet card for development.


its a test slot; as far as i know its an extension from the cpu bus that allows an external device to take control of the board.

i've got a picture from an SCI systems (the company that actually makes tivo's) annual report (i was a stockholder, am not at this time) showing a tivo board sticking up out of a test machine. So far nobody has proved that this can be used to attach something TO the tivo.

be pretty cool if it does, and someone can figure out how to do something useful with it that doesnt hose the normal functionality.

By the way, just for kicks and giggles, theres a developers board that has many similar components to the tivo board, i believe without the mpeg goodies but with an ethernet connection. its somewhere around $500-1000 depending on options..

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[This message has been edited by tom_h (edited 10-18-2000).]

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Old Post 10-19-2000 05:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan203:
With a 55Mhz processor w/o a floating point unit, 16Mb of RAM, and no 3D accelerator I highly doubt it. Perhaps someday when TiVos are more powerful, and that is actually possible, TiVo will include an ethernet port. For now just be happy with what you have! And if you want to play games get a PS2, they will be available in 10 days and come with all the ports you could ever need.

Dan



uh, for the sarcastically impaired, that was a joke.

and 55Mhz processor w/o a floating point unit, 16Mb of RAM, and no 3D accelerator is plenty enough to play DOOM with.

(actually, Tivo's lack of direct screen writes is probably the killer in trying to make games on it)

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ManOfSnow is offline Old Post 10-19-2000 09:21 PM
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Wow, I get sick for 2 days with the flu, come back and fine 41 posts to this thread. I'm still a bit under the weather so excuse the crudeness of this post because I am not going to proofread it.

Dan203, Actually I wouldn't highly doubt it. With a 16.5Mhz processor and 8MB of ram and no 3d accelerator, my Palm Pilot can play Dreadlings (a 3d FPS) just fine. As a matter of fact there is OpenGL ported to PalmOS. But now we are teetering on ridiculous.

Anyway, I didn't read through all 41 posts since I have been sick and I don't intend to since most seem to reiterate the other. Some other things would need to be considered before adding Ethernet to TiVo.

#1 Added security to the box. I don't want someone telneting into it with "factory" as my password and rendering my TiVo box useless. But thats right, most of you assume everyone has an ethernet network has a firewall. So I digress.

#2 Not all cable providers offer a modem that also acts as a router. Even if they do, most don't offer multiple IP addresses so you can share your connection. This means you can't just plug the router into your hub/switch and voila all your computers (and TiVo) would have an internet routable IP via DHCP.

#3 Not all forms of broadband give you an ethernet modem. The only way you can get a ethernet adsl modem from my telephone company is to opt for the professional install. Now, because I wanted ethernet and not some USB or PCI piece of crap I got the professional install. But to Joe Average who doesn't want to pay for the $150 install. They get a PCI card or USB modem. This makes sharing the connection even more difficult. Now you need a dedicated computer to do the routing for the network. No longer can you buy a $100 Linksys Cable/DSL router. What makes this worse is that alot of DSL providers (and eventually cable providers) are begining to implement PPPoE. Gone are the days of "always on connection." Yes, a decent cable/dsl router should be able to alleviate this problem. But now you force the user to buy a $100 router.

So lets examine this. You add an $8 chip (I read that somewhere in these posts, don't crucify me if I am wrong) to TiVo which adds ethernet capability. Software developments to make use of ethernet @ whatever cost they may be. Plus the costs of 1, 2, and 3. All of that to get one thing. Guide data over ethernet instead of over the phone.

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Old Post 10-19-2000 11:03 PM
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I do not know what the data rates for Tivo are, but most all other consumer digital video is in the 19-28Mbs (DV, DVHS, DirectTV) range so 100BaseT should work fine. My guess would be 15Mbs-50Mbs (Basic - Best)

Tivo, how were my guesses?

That being said, I think the best interface to have on the Tivo would be IEEE 1394.

Then geeks could connect that to a PC or External Ethernet bridge and have their broadband access.

The rest of the world could use the "firewire" for connecting to another piece of off the shelf Video gear such as DV, DVD recorder, another PVR, perhaps a HDTV tuner. Maybe Tivo & Replay could even work on a standard so their boxes could play nice together... At the very least a Sony Tivo should be able to talk to a Philips or RCA!

For those that want to just on the copyright issue, give me a break!

Don't cripple consumer electronics from FAIR USE because a few people violate copyright. Build the system with digital serial management so one archival copy can be produced!

[This message has been edited by cweaver (edited 10-19-2000).]

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ManOfSnow is offline Old Post 10-19-2000 11:39 PM
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cweaver, you are way off on your bandwidth numbers. 1-2Mb/s is VCR quality, 3-4 Mb/s is TV quality and 5-7 Mb/s is DVD.

While adding a firewire port would be cool because of expansion abilities. Such as a firewire harddrive or a future firewire ethernet adapter the actual use is negligible. TiVo already has RCA ports on it and when not in use by a sattelite or digital cable box should theoretically be useable as a 'line in.' Why isn't there a line in? Well my guess is that the folks at TiVo don't want you to hook a camcorder in there. TiVo is a PVR used to record TV programs.

As far as adding other hard drives. Why should TiVo give you the ability to add a hard drive by another manufacturer rather then just sell you a new unit. Also, I am fairly certain there are no firewire capabilites in Linux (even in 2.4, please correct me if I am wrong).

A better idea would be to include USB 2.0 once available. But we are starting to teeter on ridiculous again. Why not add that coffee maker one person suggested.


[This message has been edited by ManOfSnow (edited 10-19-2000).]

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dschwab is offline Old Post 10-20-2000 02:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOfSnow:


A better idea would be to include USB 2.0 once available. But we are starting to teeter on ridiculous again. Why not add that coffee maker one person suggested.


[This message has been edited by ManOfSnow (edited 10-19-2000).]



Why would adding a USB port be anywhere near ridiculous? The main appeal of a USB port for the majority of consumers would be that adding keyboard to this *computer*, which already has a modem and a display, gives the TiVo the added benefit of email/web-browsing/instant-messaging. Granted, the WebTV market is not all that big, but that market is there and having that capability on a TiVo could push the consumer that is on the fence of buying a TiVo over the edge. Having a keyboard would also make it easier to type in the text entry that we're now doing with our remotes. Obviously not a huge benefit nor the "preferred" method but a benefit nonetheless. The current TiVo device is sitting right at the brink of being the type of universal entertainment device that has been talked about for the past several years and is on the drawing boards of several companies, but with its current limitations it is too cumbersome to interact with for more than a just a few simple tasks.

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ManOfSnow is offline Old Post 10-20-2000 02:25 AM
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Do I really want to view web pages on a 55Mhz computer when I have a 500Mhz P3 that I bought to do that exact same thing? The point is that that TiVo is marketed, sold and disrtibuted as a PVR. Not as a WebTV device. Its not nearly powerful enough to do that. Although, I did make a suggestion for an Avantgo-like web clipping service.

The only reason why I mentioned USB is because there are alot more peripherals for USB then for firewire and USB 2.0 is as fast/faster then firewire. If you are looking for an 'ultimate device' check out UltimateTV.

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Old Post 10-20-2000 07:00 AM
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If it weren't for TiVo I probably wouldn't have a phone!
It's probably the biggest reason I still have a land line.

It's a high tech toy. Most of the early adopters are probably also early adopters of cable modems also. Add the fact that if you're reading this, you're a little more geeky than the rest of the owners.

It would be convienient to have it connect via the ethernet. It would save TiVo money by not having to support the dial-in system. That could pay for the ethernet itself after a few years.

I've never liked the dial-in of the direct TV either...

Gary


quote:
Originally posted by mitchrc:
Again...Why do people want this ethernet connection?

TiVo makes a call in the middle of the night (usually). It doesn't interfere with your phone usage and it again is fairly bulletproof. I don't see people clamoring for ethernet for their DirecTV receiver just so it doesn't make a phone call.

Show me a compelling, cost effective reason for needing this ethernet port on what is, after all, a consumer product.

mitch



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Old Post 10-20-2000 07:07 AM
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I have an even better reason for ethernet! I forgot to list this one.

Why limit itself to dial-in once a day?

It could double-check the programming multiple times per day to see if there were changes for that day.

It could check 75% thought a show to make sure it didn't start late and record the end of it by extending the recording time.

It wouldn't have missed West Wing last night if it had done some double checking...

Obviously this wouldn't be corrected as soon as we get the Ethernet thing figured out but it would be a step in the correct direction.

FYI: If people can figure out how to get the programming data from somewhere else via ethernet, they could also do it via the phone. So this isn't really an issue for the TiVo folks to worry about.

Gary

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Old Post 10-20-2000 10:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOfSnow:
cweaver, you are way off on your bandwidth numbers. 1-2Mb/s is VCR quality, 3-4 Mb/s is TV quality and 5-7 Mb/s is DVD.
[This message has been edited by ManOfSnow (edited 10-19-2000).]



These are the numbers I found in various places on the net describing digital recording standards, I had not looked into this before, but I was quite certain that 100BaseT could carry most any digital video.

D-VHS uses standard VHS cassettes with digital-grade tape (based on the S-VHS formulation) and offers data rates of approximately 7, 14, and 28 Mbps

DVXpress-MX product line consists of two chips, a mid-range (industrial/ENG) MX25 product for conventional 25-Mbps DV streams and a higher-priced (broadcast) MX50 version that handles DVCPRO50

At 30 fps, 720x480 RGB images with 24-bit (3-Byte) color depth theoretically require delivery of 720 * 480 * 3 * 30 = 31.1 MBps to or from the codec for transcoding.


Bottom line though is Ethernet or fireware both have enough bandwidth to handle it. I didn't think 10BaseT could do DVD, but if you can get full screen at 5Mb/s then a even low use shared ethernet segment could do it. I kinda doubt that...


[This message has been edited by cweaver (edited 10-20-2000).]

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Old Post 10-20-2000 10:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOfSnow:
While adding a firewire port would be cool because of expansion abilities. Such as a firewire harddrive or a future firewire ethernet adapter the actual use is negligible. TiVo already has RCA ports on it and when not in use by a satellite or digital cable box should theoretically be useable as a 'line in.' Why isn't there a line in? Well my guess is that the folks at TiVo don't want you to hook a camcorder in there. TiVo is a PVR used to record TV programs.

As far as adding other hard drives. Why should TiVo give you the ability to add a hard drive by another manufacturer rather then just sell you a new unit. Also, I am fairly certain there are no firewire capabilites in Linux (even in 2.4, please correct me if I am wrong).

A better idea would be to include USB 2.0 once available. But we are starting to teeter on ridiculous again. Why not add that coffee maker one person suggested.


[This message has been edited by ManOfSnow (edited 10-19-2000).][/B]


Teetering on ridiculous is the thought that consumer electronics should not have capabilities for expansion and peer communication/data transfer.

Adding hard drives, aren't they helping out here? And selling new boxes, hmm doesn't Tivo pay money to the hardware manufactures as a subsidy for each box? I would think upgrading an existing box would be preferable.

FOr me, I want electronics that give me the ability to use them how I see fit, If Tivo won't some other device will...

Check out http://www.indrema.com for an example of the devices I want to use in the future. PVR is barely mentioned here, but I think that will change.

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Old Post 10-20-2000 05:01 PM
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To the tune of Mocho Mocho Man.
Vapor, vapor ware, I wanna buy some vaporware.

The Indrema L600 is coming in 2001. Face it, an Indrema that can do TiVo things is too far out to use as a benchmark to compare with shipping products. By the time such an Indrema hits the shelves TiVo may have gone through several generations. We have no idea what a TiVo of that generation will do. The people at Indrema may have good intentions but as long as all they have to show is talk they are selling vaporware. It is easy for vaporware only outfits to talk about their dream products. On the other hand companies with real products need to play by a totally different set of rules: Do not promise anything until you know you can deliver it (soon). Do not allow the public too much info on the next generation of products or you may reduce current sales. Balance features against price. Keep the product easy to use. etc etc.

You may see TiVO or others provide the features you want but not until the market for them exists. You may know exactly what a PVR will look like 3 years from now.. that does not mean that the demand for such a unit exists in todays market. Do not forget to factor in the price for the hardware and the time needed to develop the features.

If TiVo had included all the thing you have asked for in the shipping products TiVo would be history by now. TiVo has done an esculent job of finding the sweet spot (price vrs features).

quote:
Originally posted by cweaver:
Teetering on ridiculous is the thought that consumer electronics should not have capabilities for expansion and peer communication/data transfer.

....
FOr me, I want electronics that give me the ability to use them how I see fit, If Tivo won't some other device will...

Check out http://www.indrema.com for an example of the devices I want to use in the future. PVR is barely mentioned here, but I think that will change.






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ManOfSnow is offline Old Post 10-20-2000 09:55 PM
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garalyapointe, according to tivolutionary it takes anywhere from 12 to 48 hours to update the guide listings. So while your ethernet tivo is constantly connected it only gets the same information over and over again. Of course, it would get that information as soon as it was updated but in the case of what happened Wednesday when there was no game 7 and people made a daily call Wednesday during the day, they were still not given the correct lineup.

cweaver, yes 100Mb/s is more then adequate almost any digital image. I wasn't arguing that fact, I was just correcting your numbers but I don't dispute that fact. Well, lets look at this. ReplayTV had a firewire port on it and what did that accomplish? Like I said, if you want an everying-inclusive box go get yourself an UltimateTV. Sure it will run an MS OS and be packed with features (much like there PocketPC devices), it will cost an arm and a leg. People will tout them since they are so superior hardware wise but their functionality will suck. Why are there 400x more Palm Pilots then there PocketPC/Windows CE devices? Because Palm focused on a particular goal and stuck with it. I like tivo the way it is. You start adding every feature under the sun to it and not only will drive up the price, it will more then likely lower the stability and drive off customers in the long run.

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nickhull is offline Old Post 10-21-2000 12:22 AM
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I think that the Ethernet connection would be better used for remote programming/managing the TiVo. A future use maybe for exchanging recordings.

I would love to be able to program my TiVo from work, also a 'napster' style availability to exchange TV shows would be amazing.

There are some hurdles, namely bandwidth and copywrite, but imagine being able to select a specific episode of a show and a few hours later be able to see it! Way too cool!

I can dream, can't I?

Nick

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Old Post 10-21-2000 12:44 PM
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As for connecting the Tivo up to Ethernet why not add a pcmcia slot to it then you could put in Ethernet, USB, firewire whatever but remember we are computer uses and Tivo enthusiasts the average person not on this forum isn't. They need to cater to both types

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Old Post 10-21-2000 09:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rebel:
You may see TiVO or others provide the features you want but not until the market for them exists. You may know exactly what a PVR will look like 3 years from now.. that does not mean that the demand for such a unit exists in todays market. Do not forget to factor in the price for the hardware and the time needed to develop the features.



I am sorry, I thought that is what we were discussing here, the market of future products and what we as users desire to see in the future and why.
Indrema is indeed a future product, but from the hardware description, one that sounds pretty exciting.

Unfortunately there is no vision of future Tivo products here and unfortunately it seems from the current products they will remain caught up in the intellectual property wars of the lawyers. No digital video output for fear that the quality is too good, no recording of digital audio, for fear that the quality is too good, no ability to record video input i.e. from a DVD player for fear that the quality is too good.

And back to the subject of this thread Ethernet, I do not know what Tivo/Philips/Sony/RCA have in mind, but it seems many users here think that Ethernet is not a possibility because it would give consumers too powerful of a tool that costs too much.

I am participationg in this conversation to say for me, as a consumer, it is not too complicated, it will not cost too much, it is the type of feature that is highly desireable to me, and if Tivo doesn't do it, someone will and I will go to that other system!

[This message has been edited by cweaver (edited 10-21-2000).]

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Dajad is offline Old Post 10-22-2000 07:16 AM
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ManofSnow:

I'm very saddened by your conclusion:

---
So lets examine this. You add an $8 chip (I read that somewhere in these posts, don't crucify me if I am wrong) to TiVo which adds ethernet capability. Software developments to make use of ethernet @ whatever cost they may be. Plus the costs of 1, 2, and 3. All of that to get one thing. Guide data over ethernet instead of over the phone.
---

You of anyone should understand that my advocation of an Ehternet port has ***NOTHING*** to do with getting guide data!!!! It's all about iMOD and VOD using TiVo's ability to cache video streams as they come in. I don't understand why you guys are all focusing on this particularly irrelevant advantage of an Ethernet port.

Rather than castigate you for not searching out the original thread, here it is...

http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum1/HTML/000897.html

This is the context of an Ethernet port that I was enthusiastic about

...Dale

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ManOfSnow is offline Old Post 10-22-2000 08:50 AM
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Dajad, I am very much aware of what you want, since I have had discusions with you in the past. I'd be more then happy to discuss them with you at any time. Unfortunatly alot of people see your post of "tivo needs an ethernet port" and drift away from what the topic was meant to be and I will give a response to it on a point by point basis.

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randyf is offline Old Post 10-23-2000 06:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mitchrc:
It makes no sense to put a network card in a system when less than 5% of the country has broadband access and of that a small percentage have a home network and the knowledge to integrate TiVo into it.



what percentage (is it even measurable) have a PVR??

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Old Post 10-25-2000 07:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dajad:
So lets examine this. You add an $8 chip (I read that somewhere in these posts, don't crucify me if I am wrong) to TiVo....



Ok. First, I understand that your just quoting a previously mentioned value and it's probably was a guess to begin with. I'm not even really directing this at you. I just wanted to say that. Now....

One thing people need to take into account when it comes to such things is that, for one, the parties involved need to make money. To make money, there needs to be a markup. It's not as easy as adding an $8 piece of hardware and raising the price by $8. The manufacturer needs to see a profit on any money spent, the distributors need to make profit, the retailers need to .... you get the point.

When your done, even a $2 item can cause the price of a product to increase by $10.

And, even if the cost is "only $8". How many units are being produced? Let's say the produce, and I'm just making up this value, 100,000 units. Well, that "$8" turns into $800,000.

Who here thinks that the cost, even at a fraction of the above, would make economical sense? How many sales will be lost to people who don't have phone lines, but have broadband? Not that many.

In the future.... yes. Years from now. Not now.


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[This message has been edited by an infinite number of monkeys (edited 10-24-2000).]

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