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>>> I'm tired of waiting for AAC support. <<<

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daverx7 is offline Old Post 11-11-2003 07:39 AM
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daverx7
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Lightbulb I'm tired of waiting for AAC support.

Well... I've been waiting patiently for Tivo HMO to support AAC or at least a workaround without having to maintain 2 sets of files.

It looks like I'm just going to have to re-rip all my CD's to MP3 192 (instead of AAC 160). Bummer.

If I have to do that, instead of getting another Tivo (an upgrade to my Series 1) and get the HMO option, I'm going to consider other options...

Hmmm.. This looks interesting...

http://www.psreporter.com/eb.php?pid=238164

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morac is offline Old Post 11-11-2003 10:09 AM
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morac
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As someone with both HMO and the GSMP I'd have to say they both work equally well, but the GSMP handles more formats and can play video files (though I've had it hang on a number of files that play fine on the PC).

That said it might not be what you are looking for as GSMP only supports AC3 (not ACC, not yet anyway) and only when playing video files.

See the features list and the FAQ.

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jgsplat@yahoo.co is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 06:55 AM
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jgsplat@yahoo.co
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I NEED AAC SUPPORT, NOW!!! This is Ridiculous!!!

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Mike1138 is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 11:39 AM
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Mike1138
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I'm waiting for AAC support in ANYTHING other than an iPod!! I don't understand why there are not more players/software out there supporting AAC. It is a standard anyone can use so... iTunes Music Store is doing well, why not capitalize on that? I personally would LOVE it if there was some Pocket PC software that allowed me to listen to AAC.

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jwedding is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 09:33 PM
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jwedding
Support AAC Now!

Registered: Sep 2003
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Posts: 76

Add me to the AAC support team. I've dropped more on my iTunes MS account that on my Tivo. Come on fellas...get it together. You want convergence? Show us some.

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bedelman is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 09:54 PM
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bedelman
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I have a feeling there are actually two sides to the AAC issue.

One is the actual support of AAC itself. AAC is an open and published standard. This is different from the proprietary WMA support and yet there are players that handle WMA. I guess this is simply a case of market share.

The other is support of Apple's "freeplay" DRM (Digital Rights Management) addition to the AAC standard (at least think it's called "freeplay"). Files downloaded from the iTMS (iTunes Music Store) are AAC and they've had DRM stuff added to them. The DRM was a requirement of the recording companies -- or else they wouldn't have agreed to have their music sold online. Unlike AAC, I don't think "freeplay" is an open and published standard. It would be necessary that any computer hosting protected AAC files using TiVo Desktop would need to have been "authorized" by the iTMS -- you can only have a limited number of "authorized" computers (I believe the limit is three or five).

For now, I'll continue to convert my iTMS purchased AAC files over to MP3 files using iLoveMP3 <http://u1.netgate.net/~snowcat/iLoveMP3/>

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kevinv is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 11:15 PM
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kevinv
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike1138
I'm waiting for AAC support in ANYTHING other than an iPod!! I don't understand why there are not more players/software out there supporting AAC. It is a standard anyone can use so... iTunes Music Store is doing well, why not capitalize on that? I personally would LOVE it if there was some Pocket PC software that allowed me to listen to AAC.


You probably won't see support for DRM encumbered AAC in any handheld for quite some time. Apple recently stated they make no money on the iTunes store (and I think it is believable that all money goes to RIAA and studios). They use the iTunes store to drive sales of iPods. If they allow other handhelds to play iTunes store music they'll cut their own sales.

There is at least one player that I know of that claims AAC support: http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,4879,4228,00.html, i'm not sure from the faq but it looks like it's non-DRM AAC only.

IMO, Tivo HMO is not an iPod competitor. I have and use both (I have no AAC music so this isn't as big a deal to me right now). I would love to see support for the non-DRM encumbered AAC files get added quickly (although there is probably a licensing fee involved that the $99 HMO option might not cover) and Tivo to keep working on licensing DRM AAC from Apple.

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kevinv is offline Old Post 11-12-2003 11:33 PM
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kevinv
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quote:
Originally posted by bedelman
[B]I have a feeling there are actually two sides to the AAC issue.

One is the actual support of AAC itself. AAC is an open and published standard. This is different from the proprietary WMA support and yet there are players that handle WMA. I guess this is simply a case of market share.


This is incorrect. AAC is a proprietary format developed by Dolby. There are licensing fees for selling encoders or decoders.

http://www.vialicensing.com/product...licenseFAQ.html

the rates are listed here:
http://www.vialicensing.com/product...ense.terms.html

It looks like Tivo would pay $.50 per HMO subscriber, assuming it's considered a software product.

To play AAC Tivo will need support from either iTunes or be able to tie into Apple's play approval system on the net. Either way they'll probably have to license this seperately from AAC.

The only completely patent/license/royalty unecumbered audio format is the Ogg Vorbis format.

http://www.vorbis.com/

I would love to see HMO add this format too.

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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 11-13-2003 04:19 AM
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Dennis Wilkinson
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I don't actually know for certain that Ogg is unencumbered by patents, but certainly no one has challenged it on those grounds.

In any case, I've seen numerous mentions that Apple licenses the DRM technology they're using from VeriDisc. This would mean that someone could build a non-iPod handheld that played iTMS-DRM'ed content without any involvement from Apple, barring Apple's arrangement with VeriDisc being exclusive.

What's irritating to me is that it is now possible for me (assuming I had the time) to build a plug-in for the Windows TiVo Desktop that will serve up AAC files from the iTMS (albeit with a conversion to MP3), but not on the Macintosh (where this is still possible if I were willing to code the rest of the server features.) The only requirement is that the PC running the TiVo Desktop would need to also be an "authorized" machine for those files. All one would need to do this would be the TiVo Desktop Plug-in SDK and the QuickTime for Windows SDK. It's unfortunate that there's no equivalent plug-in SDK for the Mac version of the TiVo Desktop.

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bedelman is offline Old Post 11-13-2003 05:25 AM
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bedelman
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quote:
Originally posted by kevinv
This is incorrect. AAC is a proprietary format developed by Dolby. There are licensing fees for selling encoders or decoders.


Just because AAC is an open standard doesn't imply that it is a no-fee based standard.

Everything I've read indicates that AAC (also known as MPEG-2 AAC or MPEG-4 AAC) is an open standard although the FairPlay DRM stuff is proprietary.

In contrast, WMA is not considered to be an open standard.

Although Dolby was involved in AAC (along with AT&T and SONY), it looks like AAC was developed by Fraunhofer IIS. These appear to be the same folks who developed MP3.

More information can be found here

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Bob Edelman

1 Pioneer DVR-810H
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1 TiVo Series 2 140 hour
1 Humax DRT-800 DVD Recorder with TiVo
1 Sony SVR-2000 (living with other son in Michigan)

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daverx7 is offline Old Post 11-13-2003 05:35 PM
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daverx7
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I personally have not purchased a single protected AAC file as I want a higher quality version than what Apple provides, but my 2500+ non-protected AAC files all have been ripped from my CD collection that I have *owned* for as long as 17 years. (Wow... has it been that long?!?!!!)

So, at this moment I could actually care less about having to play the protected files. With this being said... I would be happy with just playing non-protected AAC's.

Either way, I guess the re-ripping session is going to have to happen soon as I don't believe that Tivo is going to deliver on this one... Too bad for Apple... With having to re-rip everything to MP3's to make it work with Tivo, it opens me back up to the non-ipod players. Kind of funny as I was just about to get another wonderful ipod, but now it is looking like I have many more options just in time for Christmas.

Thanks,

-Dave

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LagunaSol is offline Old Post 11-14-2003 05:22 AM
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LagunaSol
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I gotta chime in every time this topic comes up. COME ON TIVO, AAC SUPPORT PLEASE!!!!!

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KermitTheFrog is offline Old Post 11-15-2003 12:01 AM
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KermitTheFrog
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at the fear of sounding like a broken record.

It's VERY easy to get Quicktime to convert the file over... so really what we need is Tivo to create a more open SDK for their OSX client, that would allow for plugins.

Cheers,
KC

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bedelman is offline Old Post 11-15-2003 12:37 AM
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bedelman
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quote:
Originally posted by KermitTheFrog
It's VERY easy to get Quicktime to convert the file over... so really what we need is Tivo to create a more open SDK for their OSX client, that would allow for plugins.



Actually they don't have any SDK for Mac OSX -- all that's there is a Windows SDK

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Bob Edelman

1 Pioneer DVR-810H
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1 TiVo Series 2 140 hour
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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 11-15-2003 12:51 AM
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Dennis Wilkinson
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If I had the time, I'd look into getting JavaHMO running on Mac OS X, and using the QT Java SDK to handle the AAC support (heck, ALL the audio formats available under QuickTime would be possible that way.)

With 3-month-old twins at home, though, free time doesn't really exist anymore. I barely have enough time to watch my TiVo, let alone write code for it!

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bedelman is offline Old Post 11-15-2003 01:24 AM
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bedelman
Call me Bob

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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
With 3-month-old twins at home, though, free time doesn't really exist anymore. I barely have enough time to watch my TiVo, let alone write code for it!


And you think you'll have more free time when they get older???

I think I'll have more free time when my 22 year old graduates college, but he's engaged -- so there could be grandchildren in the offing (man am I getting OLD)

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Bob Edelman

1 Pioneer DVR-810H
2 TiVo Series 2 80 hour (one living with son in college)
1 TiVo Series 2 140 hour
1 Humax DRT-800 DVD Recorder with TiVo
1 Sony SVR-2000 (living with other son in Michigan)

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Dennis Wilkinson is offline Old Post 11-15-2003 04:19 AM
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Dennis Wilkinson
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quote:
Originally posted by bedelman
And you think you'll have more free time when they get older???


Nope. I kinda figure it's gone for good, with the possibility of a brief respite should they both go away to college. Of course, by the time they're actually in college I may have to work 6 jobs just to cover the cost...

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jwedding is offline Old Post 11-18-2003 02:57 AM
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jwedding
Support AAC Now!

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 76

Just pinging this one back to the active list.

GIVE ME MY AAC FILES, DAGNABBIT!

wow, now I feel better.

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gizmoitus is offline Old Post 11-19-2003 02:18 AM
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gizmoitus
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quote:
Originally posted by bedelman
Just because AAC is an open standard doesn't imply that it is a no-fee based standard.

Everything I've read indicates that AAC (also known as MPEG-2 AAC or MPEG-4 AAC) is an open standard although the FairPlay DRM stuff is proprietary.

In contrast, WMA is not considered to be an open standard.

Although Dolby was involved in AAC (along with AT&T and SONY), it looks like AAC was developed by Fraunhofer IIS. These appear to be the same folks who developed MP3.

More information can be found here



Quite right. Karlheinz Brandenburg (http://www.intel.com/personal/do_mo...brandenburg.htm) was the key developer of the mp3 standard (his doctoral thesis paper was the basis of the mp3 standard) and subsequently lead the development of AAC.

I saw an interview with him on tech-tv where he discussed the basic theory behind both codecs, and where he claimed that AAC was far superior to mp3 in terms of quality... stating that a 128bit AAC was superior in quality to an .mp3 of 190k. I've seen it published that a 96 bit AAC is better quality than a 128 bit mp3.

Since AAC is better known as MPEG-2 AAC, yes it's a "standard". Whether or not something has been published as a standard isn't really germane to the issue especially when DRM is involved.

At the end of the day, the patent holders for MP3 and AAC intend to extract license money from anyone who uses a player, even if that player is free... hence the reason the Ogg Vorbis people get out of bed each day with indignation every day and provide alternatives. Let's say that's .50 or even $1.00. Is that cost going to keep Tivo from including support? Highly doubtful. Let's face it, HMO has been out for quite some time without any additions. Considering it's software that provides features that one could easily expect to have included in the device, I'm stunned that we haven't seen an upgrade. Pretty much the day it was released the laundry list of issues and limitations of HMO began to be articulated here. I'm dissappointed to say the least. In my view HMO was... beta software when it was released. I really expected that Tivo would be working on adding value and enhancing it.

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kupe is offline Old Post 11-19-2003 02:34 AM
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kupe
Viva 'la Tivolution!

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quote:
Originally posted by gizmoitus
Let's face it, HMO has been out for quite some time without any additions. ..I'm stunned that we haven't seen an upgrade. Pretty much the day it was released the laundry list of issues and limitations of HMO began to be articulated here. I'm dissappointed to say the least. ..I really expected that Tivo would be working on adding value and enhancing it.


I agree. And considering that we pay for HMO over and above our basic Tivo hardware and service charges, there is a reasonable expectation of support and responsiveness to feature requests. But there has been nothing of the kind.

1) AAC support? Not a word.
2) Music for photo slideshow support? Not a word.
3) USB 2.0 support? Not a word.
4) Support for 802.11g wireless USB 2.0 adapters? Not a word.

And the list goes on. HMO as it stands is a nice framework with lots of potential, but it seems like Tivo has just washed their hands of the whole thing.

kupe

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>>> I'm tired of waiting for AAC support. <<<

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