Registered: Jul 2000
Location: a state of unconsciousness
Posts: 29

This is one of a couple of posts from yesterday that I thought were important.

gultig

quote:

---

Yesterday 06:31 PM

jafa
Advanced Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 786
Warning: There is only one genuine Turbonet card
Hi all,

I am sorry to have to say that for a short period of time recently a un-authroized and poor quality turbonet knock-off was being sold.

These kncok-off cards can be identified by the lack of a rev number on the back under the RJ45 socket.

Turbonet cards are only available from 9thtee or bundled with a harddrive from ptvupgrade.

If you purchased a knock-off card then I would advise you to attempt to get your money back.

I designed the turbonet card as a fun project including custom tivo drivers and numerous prototypes. When people from this forum expressed interest I paid for a prototype run out of my own pocket. Mark (9thtee) took up the cause to help and we were able to take the prototypes to something that could be used by members of the tivo community.

Money from the sale of these cards has helped fund the AirNet card, QuadDrive, and now the CacheCard. I hope to be able to bring the CacheCard to beta testing very soon, and by doing so, aim to prolong the life and improve the user experience of these very cool PVRs.

Ok, so I love to play

Again I apologize for the problems that this has caused and I hope that now that things are back online we can get back to the true spirit of the tivo community.

Sincerely

Nick



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Yesterday 06:36 PM

DiGNAN17
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 22
I have to ask, which dealer was this and what is wrong with the cards? I just recently bought a card from a dealer other than 9thtee. and would like to know what's going on! Please email me if you don't want to say here:
dignan17@dignan17.com



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Yesterday 07:33 PM

scott408
Member

Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 33
If it wasn't 9th tee, then it was the un-authroized version. Of course another way to tell is look at the board. The fake version has a notch on the top left side of it. (near the RJ45). There seems to be some fake on ebay right now too. They are using 9th tee's picture but also showing the picture of the fake board (look at notch)


Last edited by scott408 on Yesterday at 07:40 PM

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Yesterday 07:39 PM

Tracer
9th Tee...That's Me!

Registered: Aug 1999
Location: Hickory, NC USA
Posts: 596

The missing copyright notice is another dead give-away...

Mark
9thTee.com



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Yesterday 07:49 PM

jafa
Advanced Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 786
Hi Guys,

The notch is normal - all turbonet cards after the first run had a notch to help clear the power connector on the harddrive.

Nick



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Yesterday 09:07 PM

joker81
New Member

Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 15
I would just like to thank you for making the card. Although I haven't used it Im waiting for my order from 9thtee to come in on thursday. Im glad I checked the AVS temp forum and found out about the fakies. I would rather have a product that someone designed and built from scratch and pay a little more then have a rip-off.

Word of advice.
At least a broken watch will be right 2 times a day. <- in reference to knockoff watches never having the correct times.



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Yesterday 11:03 PM

DiGNAN17
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 22
My other question still wasn't answered. What is the problem with these cards? I'm sorry that it wasn't the authentic card, I would have liked to support the creator of it, but I thought this one was okay. I didn't know anything about this stuff. I would appreciate it if someone would email me with the name of the vendor he was talking about (it did sound like there was one particular vendor).



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Yesterday 11:44 PM

Wil
Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 112

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DiGNAN17
My other question still wasn't answered. What is the problem with these cards?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The question does not deserve an answer. They were made and sold by people who had no interest in our hobby, for the sole purpose of making money. That's problem enough.

A pci nic is a very complex design, as it is a very rare type of component with few historical models to draw upon; there are thousands of ways they could have screwed it up. Mounted the pci connector backwards,etc., countless opportunities for error.

You are encouraged to try to get your money back from the people you paid, and purchase an approved unit from the approved vendor.



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Today 05:30 AM

netman
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Out There
Posts: 5
Unfortanatly I to have bought one of these cards. It came yesterday. I didnt find out about all of this until after I already ordered the card. I also thought that they were just a reseller.

I am going to see if I could get my money back.

Netman



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Today 08:08 AM

srs5694
TiVo Forum Special Member

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Woonsocket, RI, USA
Posts: 1159

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Wil

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DiGNAN17

My other question still wasn't answered. What is the problem with these cards?

The question does not deserve an answer. They were made and sold by people who had no interest in our hobby, for the sole purpose of making money. That's problem enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm not the person who asked the question, but IMHO it does deserve an answer. For somebody interested in getting something that works, rather than in supporting a particular clique of users, a reply that it wasn't built by somebody within that clique is a non-starter. For that matter, it's not even clear, given the information in this thread, that whoever's selling these cards isn't a member of the TiVo community.

Jafa's post claims that the cards in question are "poor quality." That claim deserves elaboration. If you want to purchase cards from a channel associated with the original developer, then fine. There are certainly valid reasons for doing so, such as feeding funds back to support future development. Others may have other views, though, and a forum like this only works if we have at least a modicum of respect for others' views. Also, it sounds like DiGNAN17 already has one of these cards, and was unaware of its "unofficial" pedigree when he bought it. As a practical matter, his knowing what's wrong with the card may be important. For instance, if it's likely to burst into flames or create a power surge that'll fry his TiVo or Ethernet router, he might want to remove it immediately. If it's just likely to stop responding to Ethernet packets once every several months, requiring a TiVo reboot to fix, he might live with it for a while and decide on other grounds whether or not to try to get a refund and buy a replacement from 9th Tee. Denying him the knowledge to make that decision is counter to free-market principles at best and (if the knockoff is actually dangerous) outright unethical at worst. (Not that you, Wil, necessarily know the answer and could therefore supply it. I certainly don't and can't.)



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Today 08:11 AM

netman
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Out There
Posts: 5
Good post. I would sure like to know.



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Today 08:34 AM

jafa
Advanced Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 786
Hi guys,

I fully support free market principles, they are part of the strength of this country.

However, If you don't have to design the card or develop the driver (about a years work and violates copyright), then knock off the product using the exact same name so that people think the are buying a real card (violates trademark), and don't have to support it, then it destroys the concept of free market principles and yes, is completely illegal, and yes I can sue for all income generated from the sale of the cards.

I havn't tested these cards yet, however the ones that I have visually inspected showed tarnished solder joints with hand rework (I am quite happy to post a photo). This doesn't say that they will or will not work, nor if they are all like this, just that I would expect a higher rate of return.

Nick


Last edited by jafa on Today at 08:38 AM

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Today 09:40 AM

stevel
Doctor Fortran

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 7487
There's a couple of issues here - it isn't Nick's responsibility to tell you what is wrong with the fake cards. He's responsible for the card he designed and distributes through his channels. Who knows what's in the knockoffs? It's sort of like buying a "Rolex" from some guy on a street corner. Maybe it will keep time, maybe it won't....

I know exactly where Nick is coming from - I help develop a software product that is often pirated. People buy the pirated copies (which don't include all of the real product), then come to us for support. Many are not initially aware that they bought a fake, but when they run into problems with install or use, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out what is wrong - it's fake, it's unsupported, you're on your own, bunky!


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(2X Philips DSR6000, 149,35 hours)

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov



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Today 01:34 PM

DiGNAN17
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 22
I appreciate your post, srs5694.

I think some of you are approaching my posts from the wrong standpoint. My situation is very different from piracy, and I think most of you are viewing it as such, and some seem to be judging my actions. The difference is that I did not knowingly support the theft of ideas, although for that I am sorry. For all I knew, the original creator of the device was getting his due, and I was simply getting a product for $5 or whatever cheaper somewhere else. Can you blame me? I made it known on another online community that I was going to buy a TurboNet and someone linked me to where I could get it cheaper.

I would try to get my money back, but I sincerely doubt I could (given the nature of the online store). Besides, I had ordered expedited shipping, and I doubt I could get that money back. I'm not about to go through that hassle and lose upwards of $30 in the process (IF it worked out). I appologize for this, but there's nothing I can do about it at this point.


Last edited by DiGNAN17 on Today at 01:38 PM

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Today 01:47 PM

DiGNAN17
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 22
PS- when available, I will be buying a cachecard from 9thTee



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Today 02:02 PM

zaknafein
Don't panic.

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4934

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[dealer] is going to be off line for a few weeks. All orders have been shipped. If you have any questions Please contact us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Tee hee!!!!


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When the evening reaches here / You're tying me up / I'm dying of love / It's OK



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Today 02:04 PM

DiGNAN17
New Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 22
Yup, that's where I ordered it from.



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Today 02:18 PM

zaknafein
Don't panic.

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4934
Oh, and we should have a photoshop contest.


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When I hear the engine pass / I'm kissing you wide /The hissing subsides / I'm in luck
When the evening reaches here / You're tying me up / I'm dying of love / It's OK



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Today 04:32 PM

kb7sei
Member

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 49
Awww crap. NOW I find out about this. See, this is what happens when tivocommunity.com is down. I ordered and received mine in that dark time, and now I come back to find out about this.

I doubt I can return the board at this point. It's been installed and works fine. As they appear to be being sued into dust, they probably aren't taking returns. I got mine from the "dealer" mentioned above. I didn't look closely to see how the soldering was, but the brief inspection I gave it didn't show any obvious cold solder joints or the big blobs of solder that are common when ignorant people solder. I guess at worst, if it fails, I can resolder the board. I used to rework PCMCIA modems, I can handle SMT stuff. Sorry about this Jafa, if it's any consolation I've been salivating over the cachecard and will buy one when they are released. All future business will be with 9thtee.

I also assumed it was a reseller as the pics and the name were the same and I'm aware of trademark law. It's not uncommon for someone to buy a bunch of something at a bulk discount and sell them at a slightly better price. Sorry to contribute to the problem.



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---

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jafa
...and yes I can sue for all income generated from the sale of the cards.

---

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Registered: Sep 2000
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It's not too hard to copy it - it may take 4 or 5 boards, but it's not difficult.

First step would be to identify all the components - trivial since they're on the board. The chip is easy enough to get, and are all the parts. Then you rip off the parts and find out which line goes where, or just image the traces. After imaging, you rip off a layer (carefully) and image the other layers. Or use a continuity tester to find where each trace goes.

Then, after that, you're done! manufacture, test, and you're done.

As for the GAL, either you do the blackbox test to figure out what's going on, apply some work reversing it, or go and get the chip delaminated.

All of which are easily available (heck, CPU remarking is a huge business - enough to make legitimate looking laser etchings as well!). The equipment cost is huge (think hundreds of thousands of dollars).

Now, as to problems, it depends how they reversed it. It could be subject timing issues so the board may lockup randomly (howoften and when depends on too many random factors). It could have an odd condition which causes the TiVo to lock up due to bus data corruption. The effects are unknown until details on how it was producted were discovered.

And yes, this is a common problem in industry as well - it's so competitive that there are "secure" semiconductors loaded with tons of false leads and useless logic to thwart conterfeiters. That 6 month lead time is very important, and any company with it would see their products reversed all the time...

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Woonsocket, RI, USA
Posts: 796

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jafa
If you don't have to do all sorts of work -- details snipped] then it destroys the concept of free market principles and yes, is completely illegal, and yes I can sue for all income generated from the sale of the cards.

---

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1700

You do not have to have a patent to sue for someone copying your work and you don't have to have a registered trademark either.

The act of creating something, a name, a driver, a circuit board design, etc. all becomes protected by a copy-right. As the creator you own that copyright just by the act of creating it. Registering a patent and a trademark ensures you have gone through the process to communicate the ideas and establish that they are your own.

For example, Jafa might have patented the idea of adding a enet card to a Series 1 TiVo. If successful this would have assured he held the rights for anyone to make a similar product unless they provided some substantial improvement. Without a patent Jafa would have no standing to sue someone for making a similar board of their own design.

However no patent is necessary to sue someone for making a copy of your work using a copy of your name, and a copy of your driver. That is clearly covered by general copyright law which comes into effect when you create the work, no registration necessary.

Disclaimer:I am not a specialist in anything and look forward to a response from someone that is...

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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 1438

I looked into Copyright and Trademark protection a while ago in regards to PCB designs exactly like this because I do some of this myself, however no drivers were involved. If I remember correctly all you have to do is sell one unit and you are covered. Can't remember exactly if that was Trademark protection or Copyright protection though. In addition I believe the PCB is covered by Copyright as artwork so that it cannot be copied itself.

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SA: Until it's back up (cjb 1994)
SAT-T60 290h TurboNET
SAT-T60 230h TurboNET (x2)
HDVR2 107h
DVR40 (unactivated) (x3)
HR10-250 stock
and ah, a, A55

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
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I agree with MighTivo on the legal grounds to sue. They copied his design, that is illegal. If they made thier own design, even if it were made to be compatible with Turbonet, they would be fine. The card I got looks exactly like the pics from 9thTee, and was marketed and sold as a TurboNet. The name alone violates trademark law, if the board is layed out the same (as it seems to be) it violates copyright law. An original design would not have the same board layout, similiar maybe, but not the same. Even a computer autorouter will not always put the traces in exactly the same place on multipule runs from the same board design/schematic. Add to that the location of the components and pads on the board, and you can tell if a design was ripped off. I assume Jaffa did all this before raising a stink about it. Based on available evidence, whoever is responsible for this broke the law and liely will end up paying some big money out in damages. Doesn't sound like he's very worried about the driver to me, just the hardware.

As for driver source, the GPL only says source must be available. It doesn't say it has to be free (beer) or on the internet at all. He can require you to buy a CD from him with the code. He can't stop you from distributing it once you buy it though. It's also entirely possible his driver is NOT derived from GPL code. He's smart enough to design a custom 100BT ethernet card for a closed system, I think he can certainly write the driver for it without too much hassle. The custom nature of the card may have required a custom driver anyway.

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Registered: Nov 2002
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Posts: 408

He'd certainly have copyright protection on his side... as to whether or not he can sue for damages, that depends on if it's a registered copyright or not. All works are copyright by default unless you explicitly decline it (e.g. - "This work is released to the public domain"), but unless you register the copyright prior to publication (which is cheap - something like $30) then you can only sue to stop future infringement -- you cannot recoup damages, losses, etc.

If it is registered then you can sue for damages and whatnot, but IANAL and don't recall what the law is regarding this.

Either way, I'm sorry to see this happen to jafa and hope that he's able to recoup the money involved. He certainly deserves whatever profits are involved in these designs given the time and effort he put into designing and supporting them.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 3582

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zathrus
All works are copyright by default unless you explicitly decline it (e.g. - "This work is released to the public domain"),

---

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Registered: May 2003
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Posts: 3

I know that I'm coming in late in this thread but I wanted to give everyone this information about Trademark and Copyright laws...

This was pulled directly from cornell's website http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/trademark.html

quote:

---

trademark law: an overview
Trademarks are generally distinctive symbols, pictures, or words that sellers affix to distinguish and identify the origin of their products. Trademark status may also be granted to distinctive and unique packaging, color combinations, building designs, product styles, and overall presentations. It is also possible to receive trademark status for identification that is not on its face distinct or unique but which has developed a secondary meaning over time that identifies it with the product or seller. The owner of a trademark has exclusive right to use it on the product it was intended to identify and often on related products. Service-marks receive the same legal protection as trademarks but are meant to distinguish services rather than products.

In the United States trademarks may be protected by both Federal statute under the Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1051 - 1127, and states' statutory and/or common laws. Congress enacted the Lanham Act under its Constitutional grant of authority to regulate interstate and foreign commerce. See U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3. A trademark registered under the Lanham Act has nationwide protection. See § 1115 of the Act.

Under the Lanham Act, a seller applies to register a trademark with the Patent and Trademark Office. The mark can already be in use or be one that will be used in the future. See § 1051 of the act. The Office's regulations pertaining to trademarks are found in Parts 1 - 7 of Title 37 of the Code of Federal Regulations. If the trademark is initially, approved by an examiner, it is published in the Official Gazette of the Trademark Office to notify other parties of the pending approval so that it may be opposed. See §§ 1062 - 1063 of the Act. An appeals process is available for rejected applications. See §§ 1070 - 1071 of the Act.

Under state common law, trademarks are protected as part of the law of unfair competition. Registration is not required. See Unfair Competition. States' statutory provisions on trademarks differ but most have adopted a version of the Model Trademark Bill (MTB) or the Uniform Deceptive Trade Practices Act (UDTPA). The MTB provides for registration of trademarks while the UDTPA does not.

Further protection of trademarks is provided by the Tariff Act of 1930. See 19 U.S.C. § 1526.

---

Unless he applied for the trademark and had it approved, which if it was, it would be available for the public to see in the Gazette at the TM office.. in other words... applying for the trademark and getting approval for it would leave grounds for trademark infringement, but if the trademark has not been approved by the government then there is no trademark infringement possible...


Also.. depending on what state that he is in, and depending on the common law of the area he may or may not have needed to apply for the trademark.. that depends on the state government

As for copyright infringement.. I won't post the entire copyright law as it is 13 chapters long... However you can find information about it on the cornell website as well at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/index.html

pay particular attention to chapter 4, which covers Copyright notice, deposit, and registeration, chapter 5, which covers copyright infringement and remedies, and chapter 9, which covers Protection of semiconductor chip products...


My suggestion would be that if anyone is going to attempt to go to court , I would do the research on the applicable federal and state laws before jumping to any conclusions... also, if you have a unique design <Which aparently they do > I would suggest that you patent it.

*puts on his flame guard and waits..*

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 34

No offense intended here but why are turbonet cards so expensive? A similar NIC for a PC costs less than $20 and a turbonet is $69. Is it because these are not mass-produced?

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 2223

You hit the nail on the head.

How many PCs are out there

Nick

__________________
Silicondust - Tivo CacheCARD/Turbonet/Airnet
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Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 70

Its amuzing that hackers (who are facilitating theft of IP from TiVo) are whining about theft of their own IP.

Lets be real here, why the hell do you need an ethernet card in an S1? And don't tell me Guide Data or TivoWeb because people have been doing this stuff over dialup for YEARS.

People are getting greedy. Imagine if Tridge had the same mentality? We would have nothing. No TivoNet, no vplay, no TiVoWeb, no rsync, no samba, and all the other cool derived software and hardware.

The only person that facilitated the theft of TurboNet is the guy who is making 100%+ profit on it. Even in low volumes, the BOM has to be around $20.

If you want to cut out theft and piracy, then be competitive with alternate channels.

I really hate when people use "community spirit" as a method for instilling guilt. Personally, I think Tridge is the only person who can qualify for having true community spirit.

Last edited by cwingert on 05-24-2003 at 05:48 PM

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Registered: May 2003
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I by no means agree with or condone stealing anyone's plans for development and calling them their own.. I was simply stating that if anyone is going to take anyone to court that they should do some homework first, and make sure that they are going through the propper channels to do so.

Personally I use an external usb connection for connecting my DTivo to my network because I don't -have- a home phone and so I -can't- get any of the guide information or have my tivo call in. Period. *shrugs slightly* I wish that there weren't people out there who would take someone's stuff and say they made it.. but there are.. There are lazy sods out there who do it every day. That's why we -do- have laws like the copyright law, the trademark laws, and why we have the patent office.

Just my $ .02

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Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Allen, TX, USA
Posts: 4810

cwingert, I think there's a big difference between software and hardware hacking. Sure, they both take a significant amount of smarts, but the latter also takes expensive, specialized equipment and processes that cost real money to access, not the "sweat equity" that can be used for software.

Plus, Tridge has agreed to release his "work" in such a way that it is, effectively, "free" to use; jafa has not made such an agreement.

Brad

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: PA, US
Posts: 685

As I've said on AC, posts regarding these illegal knockoff cards are not welcome there. We fully support jafa's great work and significant advancement to our hobby. Jafa did the work and should be the beneficiary.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 70

Censorship everywhere. Lame.

Thank you ************.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by avaloncourt
As I've said on AC, posts regarding these illegal knockoff cards are not welcome there. We fully support jafa's great work and significant advancement to our hobby. Jafa did the work and should be the beneficiary.

---

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 70

Agreed. I am not trying to minimize all Jafa has done, it is much appreciated.

I am sure if he doesn't own an oscope or LA, his work has one. I have infinite resources at work sitting idle after hours.

The guilt trip in the name of the community is what pisses me off. I am fairly sure Jafa used some of Tridge's community effort (ie TiVoNet) to develop TurboNet. I wonder if there is a violation of GPL license here.

Jafa could have done the same thing. Release the layout, release the GAL code to the public under GPL. Jafa and 9thtee could have then sold cards at a profit to support "the hacking effort." Someone else would come along and make a cheaper version. However, given all the bleeding hearts around here, I am sure there would be people would buy the more expensive one to support Jafa.

Hell a simple Paypal donate link would probably work too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bsnelson
cwingert, I think there's a big difference between software and hardware hacking. Sure, they both take a significant amount of smarts, but the latter also takes expensive, specialized equipment and processes that cost real money to access, not the "sweat equity" that can be used for software.

Plus, Tridge has agreed to release his "work" in such a way that it is, effectively, "free" to use; jafa has not made such an agreement.

Brad

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: PA, US
Posts: 685

quote:

---

Originally posted by cwingert
Censorship everywhere. Lame.

Thank you ************.com

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 70

I was talking about YOU censoring posts because you don't like them. Just like AVS does because they are in bed with TiVo.

Instead of giving you my address, I'll give you TiVo's address, because you are already stealing from them (by using a TurboNet), so why stop a good thing?

TiVo
Administrative Offices
2160 Gold Street
P.O. Box 2160
Alviso, CA 95002-2160
Phone: (408) 519-9100
Fax: (408) 519-5330

People in glass houses...Should get off their soapbox.

quote:

---

Originally posted by avaloncourt
Oh give me a break. Why don't you give me your address and I'll come steal things from your house. That's all this is. Stealing something that belongs to someone else.

Censorship would imply that it's openly available for everyone to use. It isn't. It's a design that belongs to jafa. It's his work. Figure it out. What do you do for your work so we can come steal it too.

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